KnowledgeEternal, I'm sorry to hear that about some of my brothers and sisters doing that sort of thing...how bout turning some of that energy over to service...but I digress.

I think that Kelli brought up a good point. Is there really that kind of concept-25/52 VERSUS NPHC when there are members that are in both? I don't think that's feasible. If there were, dual membership wouldn't be going on.

I think that concept just comes from the frustration that both APO's and Gamma Sigs feel when they have to hear all the negative comments from others. I know that sometimes it gets to me, but if anybody has questions about GSS then I answer them. No reason to keep assuming anything when I'm right there to ask!

Rain Man,

What do you mean exactly by "brindge the gap" between 25/52 and NPHC orgs.? All I have seem discussed here is the issue of tension based on a feeling of proprietorship over calls, strolls, signs, etc. Whay kind of response do you expect from anyone's national HQ's? For many NPHC organization these social markers are not official, I am not sure what direction their National Administrations could give you. They are long standing traditions held dear by many in the organizations but they are not official proscribed tenets. That, however, does not mean they are any less important to the membership.

But again, I am not clear on what the gap is. Are you looking for some assurance that NPHCers will not mind seeing other organizations stroll, call etc. I sincerely doubt it is ever going to happen. 1. The National body is really not likely to take an interest in this type of petty side stuff (nor shoud they in my opinion) and 2. each person is entitled to his or her own opinion. If it makes my skin crawl to her someone with a call that sounds like some mix of a Delta call and an AKA call- it is my skin and it can crawl all it wants.

I personally do suspect race plays an issue based on the description I have been given here (per my original post, this was not an issue on my undergrad campus.) Not the race of the founders of the orgs. but the race of the members of APO/GSS for whom this seems to be an issue. It stands out that the memebers for whom this seems most relevant are those who 1. are African American 2. at HBCU's 3. who are being perceived as imitating outward social signs of NPHC orgs. You say this is not a matter of non NPHC greeks wanting to do what they see NPHC greeks do, but, I think you would probably have to provide me with a whole lot of facts that show

1. they did not get the idea from NPHC orgs in the first place; and
2. that it is not an attempt to emulate BGLOs since these things are not characteristic of GSS/APO on their own or WGLOs.
People are free to pledge whatever type of GLO they want but the reality is if you are an African American who pledges a GLO other than a BGLO and attempt to introduce (or continue as the case may be since I am sure this started back a ways at some schools) things that you know are routinely equated with BGLO's some eyebrows are going to raise and some are going to say you are seeking to imitate what you see else where. The question may be asked "if you are happy with your org,why don;t you do what they do?"

You asked my Soror
Million dollar question to you, Kelli: If you say that no tension exists, does that mean that 25/52 will be treated equally as NPHC orgs in all aspects, except we can't vote or hold office at NPHC function?

What do you mean by "in all aspects?" The NPHC has specific guidelines as far as membeship of organizations are concerned. It is attinable for those who meet the guidelines and seek it (Iota Phi Theta, for example) To participate a choice would have to be made by APO/GSS. If you mean acceptance in some other way- what?

And one last question- why care whether or not you are accepted at all? I don't mean treated civilly (ie not threatened with violence, etc.- that is rediculou behavior) No one could stop you from strolling, stepping, calling, etc. without doing somthing illegal. If you are saying you want them to be directed to be welcoming, that is another story. You can't please all the people all the time and as long as your org is living by its principles and handling its business then you are doing what you should.

(FYI- I don't have a problem with most of the behavior cited in this thread at all. I believe in and love my organization and thw work that we do and no one else's stroll, call, etc. could affect that. As long as they are not being mistaken for DST, I coiuld care less.)

Kelli,
I will respond by paragraph:

First paragraph: Thank you. If the other 999,999 other NPHCers felt the same way you did, I wouldn't have to post this thread http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif

Second paragraph: We are not asking to sit on your council. Our bylaws (Article IX, Section ???)specifically prohibit membership on councils consisting solely of social fraternities/sororities, except when university adminsitration requires such.

Third paragraph: How do you feel about us twirling canes? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif Seriously, if you feel disrespected because another org is wearing gold boots, there is a major self-esteem and selfishness issue. I went to a party with this one woman who saw another woman wearing the same dress. My date told me "Take me home, that b**** got on my clothes. I said, "Chill out and relax, dontcha know other folx shop at Sears too? Doggone! If anything it means you both have good taste."

Answer to your question: Don't know, you would have to ask someone who holds duel membership. I admit I tried, but I came to my senses just in time.

Rain Man

Kimmie, I would address your concerns by paragraph, but most of the issues overlap. So I am going to try to get to as many of your underlying points as I can.

What do I mean by bridge the gap? Put it to you this way:

When our National M&E Chair mailed the letter to each NPHC org, it was a rather generic letter, loosely stating that there seems to be some sort of problem(s) between the NPHC and APO. Whether or not the problem was real or perceived he did not know. However, he wanted to see if through some open forums, conferences, or other means of communication, APO and NPHC could sit down, address the issues, and get to some possible solutions.

As far as your issue of me supposedly saying that this is not a matter of Non-NPHC Greeks wanting to follow suit with NPHC traditions, and you needing facts that prove A,B,& C, you lost me there. I will not respond to that since I am not sure I am on the same page as you.

As far as you not knowing what the gap is, I can only defer to the 1 million NPHCers and 25/52 Family members who do know. I cannot make you understand what you have not experienced, nor can I or will I fault you for that.

As far as National not wanting to take in interest in "the petty stuff", I am not sure if the root of the issue is "the petty stuff". I am trying to determine what is the root, and responding to the feedback from everyone as it comes in. That is why our M&E chair wrote the letter to NPHC in the first place--to see what, and according to everyone on Greekchat, IF, there is a problem.

What I mean by "in all aspects", is this:

DON'T HATE, APPRECIATE, PARTICIPATE, COOPERATE, CONTEMPLATE, CELEBRATE! Drop all the trivial bulljive, and let's roll up our sleeves and get down to BUSINESS of serving the community.

I think this has been a good thread, but those respondents (thank you all) does not accurately represent those who have seen, witnessed, or just had issue with those who "hated on" 25/52. I know I am no dummy, but based on the responses, it just appears that I am the only one who is aware of this.

As far as "If I am happy with my org, why don't I do what they do?" Because Alpha Phi Omega is not a cookie-cutter fraternity. 'Nuff said.

Hope I touched on all your questions and points.

Rain Man

[This message has been edited by Rain Man (edited April 24, 2001).]

This brings up an interesting topic. Is what we precive real? Or do we just preceive the world in such that a way that we preceive it as real, or is it realatity really real?

I don't understand why this topic was started in the first place. Why create more contraversy?

Rain Man, I believe that you already knew what the issues NPHC orgs have with APO(a co-ed service fraternity) and GSS(a service sorority) on HBCU campuses...

There are many of our NPHC brethren who are part of these organiZations and perhaps their sisters and brothers in those organiZations chose to imitate them...but hey I don't know and really don't care...

This conversation did little to enlighten me on anything.

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The Epitome of Beauty, Style, and Grace, Always Exemplifying Good Taste, A Zeta Woman, A Finer Woman, That's Me!

Never mind the contraversy, is what we precieve as reality real, or are we imaging things.

Let's be solidly realistic here. Alpha Phi Owega was on a black campus before most of us was born. And there is no documented history on when something as simple as a call or step or a handsign began. So arn't we assumming too much here. Yes that's right even Alpha Phi Omega on a black campus has had some idea's copied. Fansy That. I look on this board and I see that some people don't get it and really rather not. To them, you can refuse education, it is your right to remain the way you are. When you speak of tradition we have several years of tradition. I personally been in Alpha Phi Omega for over 20 years. And all those years we have been stepping. And before those years we have been stepping, chanting, handsigns. We very
well may have the oldest handsign in the nation.

But is this issue real? You bet. Is it a national issue? Not really. Some NHCP members know of us and have stepped in "our" step shows. It's the brand new ones that never heard of us that cause us to begin immediate training all over again. I remember going to Ohio State and our sisters of Gamma Sigma Sigma just crossed a line of 17 and they came out in there colors and was approached by a Delta who demanded to know how they choose the Maroon and White they were wearing, like they had a corner or all the spectrums of red. But that Delta was in college in a part of the country unfamiliar with who we are. So she was brand new to this. People react differently and I'm now use to the immediate training required.

I don't ever expect total respect from the NHCP organizations because they have the same need we have and they have a hold on many of the college campuses. They have them thinking that unless they are apart of the council, they are not real. That's cool. We in the 25/52 family just have to welcome the educational role. And let them all know.

Peace!

PS. Much Love Rainman, Gamma Girl, Pirate00 and any other 25/52 fam passing by.

JayBEE!

Answer to Question #1: My point is (assuming your previous statements are true), that I should not, nor any 25/52 folx should be approached by any NPHCer to hear complaints about colors, signs, boots, canes, brands, or any other superficial stuff. If you feel those things make up your true identity as a GLO, you are IMHO a sad example of what a fraternity/sorority member is like. What makes your identity should be the fruits you bear (read: what you contribute to the community).

I am not saying the tension is racially motivated, I am saying that the tension is due to a dividing line between who is in NPHC and who isn't. Several posts on this thread made that very clear.

Answer to Question #2: I want to see based on this small bit of feedback if our current National Membership & Extension Chair will resubmit a letter to the 7 NPHC orgs who did not respond initially--see initial post for details (The administrations for those orgs has probably changed and we could get better feedback this time around), and the remaining two orgs we can use their responses to bring them up to speed with what's going on.

Million dollar question to you, Kelli: If you say that no tension exists, does that mean that 25/52 will be treated equally as NPHC orgs in all aspects, except we can't vote or hold office at NPHC function?

The response(s) to this question will be where the rubber meets the road.

RM

_____________________________________________
Get ready to match the stars, Edward Asner, Brett Somers, Charles Nelson Reilly, from "Angie", Debralee Scott, Richard Dawson, and Patti Deutsch, as we play the star studded, big money Match Game '77.

Brother RM,

I am very aware of the various "issues" that arise between NPHC and my sorority. But it's like what JAYBEE said, you have to let them know what you're about. You can't blame others for not knowing. When you don't know something about a group of people, you make assumptions about them. Those assumptions will not pass until someone takes the opportunity to learn about the other group and you can go from there.

Can you change the opinions of others? No. I think that is very obvious on this thread. Can you make this into a big issue? No. It's not that I'm oblivious to anything that you've been talking about. Perhaps it is because I've got other things to do and worry about within my organization that I devote my time to that.

As long as my call and handsign are the same I will always get a raised eyebrow wherever I go, but being in this sorority as definitely toughened me up. I can't and don't worry about what others think of my sorority-I care about the service I'm doing and I know I'm a good person. But because I'm taking this attitude, please don't think I'm not aware of what's going on. I just do not make it an issue.

Maybe you didn't get what I said before...but this thread is POINTLESS!

APO and GSS will continue to be service orgs and the NPHC orgs will continue to be service and social orgs. Although where service is concerned our paths are similar, I don't see why there should be contraversy, but there is. If the APO and GSS on HBCU campuses wanted to create an identity for themselves that is similar to NPHC orgs...then so be it...and if my fellow NPHC brethren have a problem with it...then they just do. MOVE ON! Talk about something worth talking about. This discussion is rather old!

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The Epitome of Beauty, Style, and Grace, Always Exemplifying Good Taste, A Zeta Woman, A Finer Woman, That's Me!

[This message has been edited by PrettyKitty (edited April 25, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by PrettyKitty (edited April 25, 2001).]

I agree, PrettyKitty! It's all love here.

In Service,
gamma_girl

RainMan-

Why don't we talk about your animosity towards NPHC organizations as part of this thread? You seem to have a bug up your butt about NPHC organizations. Why is that your threads and posts always tend to point out something you perceive as negative about us, the 06/08/11/11/13/14/20/22/63 family.

SHEESH!

ZetaAce

Will everybody just SIMMA DOWN NOW!!!! No matter the letter, we're ALL Greek together!! I'm an APO Brother, and I love all my bros' and sisters in any GLO (BGLO, WGLO, NPC, NPHC, Service, Social, Professional, Honor Society) Spread the love, bury the hate, and everyone benefits!

In L, F, and S,

-Gerald

If you learned something from Rain Man's insightful posts, raise your hand.....did u see any hands up?

NEWays,

It seems to me that you have a chip on your shoulder in regards to BGLO's and inquiring minds want to know why? Who sent you a rejection letter in college that you are still bitter about? Why is it that you spend all your time bashing BGLO's on this General Forum and NO TIME on your OWN ORG's Forum?

I say this conversation is OLD, because it's just that...OLD. There is a similar thread that began last year in reference to yet the same beef. If you use your fingers to do some searching, you'll see it and see why I called it OLD!

Sometimes you perpetuate Drama when there doesn't need to be just by bringing things up. I think the answer to your question, which I am sure you already knew, could have been better answered off this board without this public debacle.

One of my Sister Sorors sent you an email off this list asking your questions that you chose not to respond to, instead you further perpetuate drama by posting on this board getting salty with me.

Why waste time and energy talking about old news. You've been in APO how many years? 10, 15, 20? And in those years in your org. you are going to tell me that you NEVER spoke to a member of BGLO's in reference to this "beef" we supposedly have with you all?

Never did I say I was trying to infringe upon anyone's right to post...but that has naught to do with the fact that this string is POINTLESS and should be closed, IMHO. One of your own Soror's agreed me!

B4 APO and GSS people get upset, I am not talking about you...and don't have beef with you...but I'd really like to know why Rain Man is preoccupied with BGLO's and trying to put us down! From the people I have known or met in APO and GSS they seem to be positive folk, so I am having time trying to understand why there is a need to perputuate drama and negativity, when there doesn't need to be...


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The Epitome of Beauty, Style, and Grace, Always Exemplifying Good Taste, A Zeta Woman, A Finer Woman, That's Me!

[This message has been edited by PrettyKitty (edited April 25, 2001).]