The housing issue is not the only one at Arkansas. The Greek Council there has some issues. They did not ask for expansion last year. The university president told them to open. But as stated, no one was interested. The cost of building a house coupled with knowing that you are not going to get the kind of assistance that some other large CPH's provide(such as Alabama) just makes it not worth the time, money and effort.

And doesn't MS State have just 7 NPC groups?

Yes. They too have lost 4 chapters that I know of, although I think that someone else has been chosen to come aboard in a year. The schools are comparable in some ways (such as many PNMs going in with their minds set on certain older chapters) but State doesn't have nearly as many girls rushing.

Irishpipes or gee_ess, do y'all know the feasibility of knocking down one or more of the sixties-style fraternity houses on Stadium Drive and replacing them with new Greek housing? Or have they already been knocked down? I swear, the Sigma Pi house looked like a warehouse.

Just as being in a struggling chapter doesn't give you a quality fraternity experience, so does being in a huge chapter.
How many women only turn up for the minimum number of meetings once the "in love" stage of the sorority experience is over? Will never do more than serve on a committee because there are too many other members? Can disappear for weeks and nobody realize they haven't seen her for a long time?
I think it's awfully sad when you ask a girl about a sorority sister and she says, "I've heard the name, but I don't know her."
I'd really like to see the statistics on retention.

I agree with everything you've said, but my chapter imo has done an incredible job with the large numbers we experienced last year. I know several chapter struggled with participation and retention on campus, but that is something we stressed the entire year, and it definitely paid off. We had one girl drop from 104 new members the first two weeks because she just didn't think Greek Life was for her. Other than that, we only lost 3 other new members. This was due to the fact that we have grade requirements for initiation. When they were informed they would have to pledge another semester, they decided to drop. I know it's not perfect retention, but I would say 100/104 (96%) is a hell of accomplishment considering the circumstances. I'm hoping with more programming and extra focus on involvement, we can achieve similar or better odds this year.

I just have to say DAYUM. :eek: I cannot imagine having 100 pledge sisters and having 400 people in the chapter. Logistics must be a nightmare. Where do you hold chapter meetings - in a lecture hall? Where and how would you do initiation, and wouldn't it take forever? (I know one chapter at my school took 25-30 new members each year in FR, and divided each NM class in half and held two initiations - and that was for only 25-30 NMs.)

These are situations where expansion is certainly called for, but unfortunately, the barriers to entry (must have a big house from the get-go, must bring in 250-300 women in the colonization process (and imagine THAT initiation!)) are just too high.

Well, Stadium Drive has already had some recent new housing put into it (Sigma Nu house). If you look at Google Maps, and do a street view, you will notice that (from North to South) that there are the Athletic dorms, then the new Sigma Nu house, the Phi Delt House, the empty lot where the KA house was (I am not sure if anything is currently being built on this lot), the Lambda Chi house, and then the SAE house. Others may have more current info. I haven't been down stadium drive since last football season.

No, no shitstorm. :) The only way this would be looked at negatively within the school or the national org is if the way they were getting these huge pledge classes was that no one was getting cut - i.e. taking the selectivity out of membership selection. As I said before, none of these groups is having to resort to taking Courtney Love Junior to get that quota of 100+ people. (I get the impression that sometimes that is the opinion when NPHC lines are super large.) There are huge numbers of awesome rushees that any chapter would love to have.

I personally would hate the concept of not knowing all my chapter sisters' names and only having super close friendships with a fraction of the chapter, but then again, it's all what you're used to. I'm sure someone from Arkansas might come to my school and feel absolutely claustrophobic. You can develop sisterly relationships at either place. The only problem comes when you try to run/counsel/discipline/reward very different chapters in the same way.

Very true and Ole Miss is expecting quota to be high again too. I think the chapters were told to plan for quota in the high 90s-100s. Which just boggles my mind because quota was just in the 50s when I was in college at Ole Miss, of course that was in 1996 and we did have 10 sororities then!!!!

ETA: I think if expansion isn't happening (like at Ole Miss and Arkansas) then it just comes down to each sorority to "figure it out!" I know some chapters at Ole Miss have figured it out. And yes they do eat in shifts (from what I've heard at some chapters at Ole Miss). AOII does not eat in shifts but our addition to our house a few years ago allows for just about everyone to eat! And I think in the beginning of the year events/meetings/meals are attended more and then it does subside. Does this mean those members who aren't coming to everything aren't getting a good experience? Nahh! I think for some women they are looking for a different experience than others. So, it's about offering all aspects of sorority life to all members. (Academic, Sisterhood, Social, Philanthropy, etc). Do I think having a new member class of 100 members or more is insane?!?! I do think it is but I think all of our chapters have women who are willing to adjust and “figure it out” to be successful and compete on their college campuses. So, that’s just my two cents.

I guess that either the new SN House or the KA lot is the location of the former Sigma Pi House. I can't even remember where Wilson Sharp was in relation to them. Then the AKL House was down by Pomfret, where I lived the first year, and I wonder if it's still there. It's hard to live close to the fraternities but, hey, it'd be close-in housing.

What's where the old Sigma Nu House was on Arkansas Avenue? And the TKE House, which was on a side street nearby?

I really need to go to Fayetteville.

Maybe I'm more sinister than the people who have replied already, but don't the debates over small vs. large lines or NPHC chapters also have something to do with feeling like if you get too big, you get away from being as selective as you should be?

I think the whole quota system means that NPC groups don't get hung up on that very frequently.

I'm certainly not claiming it's never been said; I've just never heard of a top group saying that even if they attracted every strong potential new member going through recruitment, they still wouldn't feel like they have quota's worth of worthy candidates.

I've only heard of "struggling" groups who face the pressure to take quota but might feel like they didn't want the part of the pool that wanted them.

I think the philosophy is that if the campus is good enough to have your group on it, then there are enough good candidates out there; your job as a chapter is to make sure you get the top girls as your pledge class.

Now, with fraternities, I've heard of stronger ones being critical of other stronger groups because they took too big a pledge class so they weren't as selective as they should have been. I think the when number of bids that you can give is sort of open ended, then the pressure is greater about where to draw the line so you don't appear to be just asking everyone to join.

But yeah, I'm sure the experience of being in a chapter of 200+ presents different challenges for sisterhood.

ETA: I see now that 33Girl did touch on being selective. I missed it before.

Some chapters can have issues with qualifications but that tends not to be the concern.

Larger NPHC chapters tend to have 50+ people who are all extremely qualified. For instance, if a chapter has 200+ at the "informational or rush," 50-100+ can be highly qualified. Some of them may have more qualifications "on paper" rather than "in person" but large chapters tend to be large because they are at schools with a large (potential) aspirant population. Some of these chapters choose to narrow the qualifications even further because of this large aspirant population.

That is one of the main complaints about large chapters (and not just sororities). This includes new members not knowing older chapter members and also new members not really knowing their fellow new members. I do know NPHCers from large lines who have introduced themselves to their own line sisters.

Thanks for your response. Nothing sinister about it. :)

As for the bolded, such statements have sparked big debates among NPHCers. LOL. It gets into the discussion of whether being officially qualified means the sisterhood/brotherhood needs all of these people at once. This is perhaps more a perception among some NPHCers because NPHC aspirants can be however old they want to be as long as they qualify. You can be a senior in college (traditional age or 40 years old) or a 65 year old woman/man pursuing through an alumnae/alumni/graduate chapter. There are larger chapters that only take the top percentage of applicants and will not accept a line over a certain number. Everyone else can keep trying until they either make it or get tired of trying.

Thanks for responding, everyone who responded. :)

I actually have heard this from a top chapter with a relatively small chapter size. The quota was going to be 28 that year, and the whole chapter was upset that they didn't want a class that large. They didn't feel it was selective enough and was too unwieldy. The alums were scratching their heads.

Agreed. Having the largest pledge class or having the largest chapter does not equate to being one of the top chapters at competitive schools I'm familiar with

I'd also say this for most Oklahoma schools- the number of Texas kids at OU and OSU is ASTOUNDING.

And probably why Greek life is booming at each, and OSU is open to expansion (if I remember correctly).

OSU was open and AOII will be colonizing there this spring. ;)

As for Arkansas and Stadium Drive - I believe Theta was located there when they were on campus and this was perceived as a negative for their chapter. When AOII colonized, Stadium Drive was not considered to be a viable alternative. I wonder if 2 groups came on so that 2 sororities could be located there, if that would help things. You know - not being the only sorority on fraternity row.

Housing is a huge issue for Arkansas, but perhaps one that an NPC might tackle due to the potential rewards of a prosperous chapter in a prestigious greek system. I think the bigger obstacle at Arkansas is the culture. Sure, people say they would welcome a new group, but what they tend to mean is they welcome a new group to help them out with smaller pledge class sizes as long as that group "agrees" to come in as a bottom chapter.

Some other huge opportunities have arisen the past few years and NPCs have bitten - Tri Sigma went on at Mizzou even though that required building a house - DG at Bama, Alpha Phi at FSU and Bama. But those places obviously had similar potential rewards as Arkansas without the same level of risk. (Colonization is always risky, but not to the level that it is at Arkansas.)

I think if the numbers at Arkansas continue to rise, the attitudes there may change. There are a LOT of students who are interested in greek life who aren't 5th generation sorority women who know for sure which chapter they MUST have. So many PNMs are the first in their families to attend college let alone participate in greek life. These women may want the sorority experience more than they want a specific chapter. This may open the door to NPCs who previously weren't "southern" enough or steeped in Arkansas tradition.