Originally Posted by dnall (Post 2042715)

I would say their founding was short sighted.

Originally Posted by preciousjeni (Post 2042760)

Those who live in glass houses...

Originally Posted by Kevin (Post 2042768)

As far as the shit talking about founders' purpose goes, I'd stay away from that one. Most folks aren't joining up with organizations whose purpose they find to be pointless.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 2042770)

Amen.

Originally Posted by dnall (Post 2042715)

It's a completely normal fraternity with ragin parties, serious risk mgmt concerns, etc. It's not church deacons. We're all comfortable with the juxtaposition of the two by now.


I would say their founding was short sighted. They have lost their purpose & therefore should dissolve or remake themselves with a new change the world purpose. Otherwise it's sitting in a car that's out of gas blasting the radio and pressing on the pedals thinking you're getting to your destination. I'd rather see them out of the way so those members will go to orgs that do actively have a serious change the world mission to accomplish.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 2042765)

Exactly. According to its website, ATO had a "whites only" clause until the 60s.

Guess the ATO founders were short-sighted, as well.

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel (Post 2042870)

I have a hard time with this.

"Well we discriminated and excluded you because of your race/religion/ethnicity/not being like us but since we have stopped doing that as an organization (individuals may still follow/believe those policies) and you can come join us, shut down since your only purpose was having a group because you couldn't be in ours."

I won't disagree that your history degree is worthless if you think people should give up their history to get out of the way for the descendants of those who kept them excluded in the first place. I may go to a crappy west coast Pacific school with weak Greek Life, but thankfully my History degree is far more valuable to me than yours is to you. Weak defined as homes on the Register of Historic Places, men's and women's groups on campus for over 100 years, a campus designed by Fredrick Law Olmsted, and 10 miles away there's a similar weak situation at Wazzu. I am sure the professors at your directional Texas school, which is not in the SEC you idolize, were highly competent and capable, you just didn't learn anything about the history of others and how it is your history as well.

Originally Posted by preciousjeni (Post 2042892)

You lost me. Who has a history degree?

Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 2042895)

dnall.

Originally Posted by preciousjeni (Post 2042892)

You lost me. Who has a history degree?

Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 2042895)

dnall.

Originally Posted by dnall (Post 2041810)

I didn't see a statement about only undergrads for any particular org. Obviously that's the norm. There's not a lot of grad students joining anywhere as far as I know. However, I was not under the impression he was interested in ONLY that org.

I really don't get how this guy got through an undergrad degree and some way into grad school before he figured out he wanted to be in a fraternity. It is probably too late at that point, but I can't tell someone not to pursue the things important to them when there is some possibility.

My fraternity was/is extremely important to me. Much more important than my degree. And in fact I've had more employment opportunities from my fraternity association than based on where my degree is from. But, I wouldn't necessarily say that's the norm, and the fact I have a fairly worthless history degree might have a little to do with that as well. But, my fraternity made me who I am. It shaped my beliefs and world view as much as my parents did, much more than any academic experience or training. I know that is not everyone's experience, but if someone wants that for themselves I can't tell them not to go for it. They have to decide for themselves if it's worth whatever the costs may be.

I probably wouldn't transfer from Rice to Sul Ross (didn't even know they had a Greek system) either. But, I would transfer from Rice to SMU, TCU, Tulane, LSU, A&M, or several other schools. I could find another school that's good for the degree I want to get and also has a Greek system I have some chance of getting in to. If I decided I wanted to do that, I would call a few of the chapters there to ask about the grad student thing, and I would then go visit them a bunch of times - effectively rushing. At some point in there both sides will be certain about giving or not giving a bid, and then I would go ahead and transfer.

I can't say that such a thing is going to work out or not. It is a lower probability for sure than if we were talking about a 19yo kid talking about starting his Soph year somewhere else. Yeah, the easy answer is too late and make the best of your current situation. But, I can't tell someone to just give up and deal with it. There is a way to get this done, and if this person wants it bad enough, I'm not going to tell them not to try.

Originally Posted by dnall (Post 2042715)

I would say their founding was short sighted. They have lost their purpose & therefore should dissolve or remake themselves with a new change the world purpose. Otherwise it's sitting in a car that's out of gas blasting the radio and pressing on the pedals thinking you're getting to your destination. I'd rather see them out of the way so those members will go to orgs that do actively have a serious change the world mission to accomplish.

Originally Posted by Kevin (Post 2042768)

Dnall, I applaud your enthusiasm. Most fraternities are, indeed, badass in their own right.

The blackfeet though...

ATO used to seem to be pretty lax when it came to enforcing hazing rules, but in the last few years, at least here locally, they've taken a hard line. My younger brother is an ATO from (I think) your Zeta Nu chapter. They lost their charter a few years back for hazing, same thing happened to the chapter at the University of Oklahoma.

So you'd be smart to get a handle on that, but it seems you have.

I'd be careful about alumni advisory boards though, especially when your chapter has a history of hazing. Some of your alumni are definitely going to see hazing as an essential part of the fraternal experience, and in some places are even active participants in the hazing. An advisory board need not be composed of members only. Parents can be on it, professors can be on it, etc. If you're looking to change your organization's culture, sometimes that change needs to come from the outside.

As far as the shit talking about founders' purpose goes, I'd stay away from that one. Most folks aren't joining up with organizations whose purpose they find to be pointless.

ATO's own initial purpose didn't seem to have much to do with Christian brotherhood, at least not in the history books on my shelf. I will of course admit that the authors of said sources are slightly biased.

Originally Posted by dnall (Post 2042936)

To whomever was saying something about whites only... that rule for us was the same one requiring members to be Christians. Change was voted down in the 40s based on the Christianity aspect of it. I hope I've expressed the degree of Christian basis for which we exist, and so I hope you're understand why it took us some time to be open to other religions. There was not open opposition to desegregation in the 40s, even with what is still today a predominantly southern organization. We are not perfect in that regard. Few organizations of this age are. All I can say is I hope we've learned from that aspect of our history and become better for it.

Originally Posted by dnall (Post 2042972)

No? My founders didn't pass the rule restricting membership to whites only.

What the hell. The only theoretical org my statement could have been taken to say had short sighted founders would be one that never had a meaningful purpose in the first place. Anyone that's taking that as an insult is making a negative judgment against their own org that I never implied.

Why are people so damn nit picky and judgmental about everything around here? Do yall really like starting crap and finding fault in every possible thing? I thought we were here to have legit discussions of real issues and try to help people.