Originally Posted by AZPHI JOURNEAUX (Post 1925697)

Ok some of these comments are getting a little away form the purpose.

Im asking for ways to make this more expectable, if a lighting change at an open interview is enough to set someone off, then we need to rethink society.... cause thats just sad

Originally Posted by AZPHI JOURNEAUX (Post 1925698)

as for all the required things, what are we supposed to just let everyone in? wheres the selection process, how do we determine who is dedicated and willing to further the fraternity in a positive way.

as i mentioned they have to hit a point level its super easy to get to with not much effort if at all.

Originally Posted by AZPHI JOURNEAUX (Post 1925712)

I'm opening the floor for you to explain your selection processes so we can take a look.... I'm sure we can find hazing to some degree.... someone I went through the system and didn't feel my personal felling where hurt in any way, i figured it was part of the game, to be in a community service group you might want to be active in community service. its like being on the baseball team, the selection criteria there is you have to proficiently play baseball... if it works better we can change the lighting to general florescent lights if it really means that much....

as for the tests and quizzes we are not talking about go get me this and that, its written tests. from a set informational packet.

Originally Posted by AZPHI JOURNEAUX (Post 1925713)

and we have point value assigned to spending time with people in the fraternity, as i said you don't have to do everything, if you really think that a selection process like this is hazing, its all openly going on, we admit to it, and no one has ever complained. if someone voices a complaint its heard and the problem is remedied, we don't allow any physical harm to come to the pledges or for that matter the availability for it.

as for the psychological effects of a lighting change in a room, its not a interrogation, its an interview, just like those for a job. just you have a light shining in your eyes.... honest if it means enough we can change.

Originally Posted by AZPHI JOURNEAUX (Post 1925729)

REQUIREMENTS
-2.5 GPA. those without a GPA are still welcome to pledge but must be at a 2.5 by the next semester
-Enrolled in a minimum of three(3) credit hours at CNU
-10 Service Hours, 5 of these hours must be with the fraternity
-Plan and carry out service project with pledge class by end of pledging semester
-Plan and carry out fellowship retreat with pledge class by end of pledging semester
-Plan and carry out fundraising project with pledge class by end of pledging semester
-Attend at least three brotherhood meetings before initiation
-Attend all pledge meetings
-Pay National Pledging Fee of $32 at Pledge Pinning*
-Pay National Initiation Fee of $35 at Initiation Ceremony*

This is Alpha Phi Omegas selection material....found openly online, looks pretty close to ours... minus the Cheesy interview.

Originally Posted by AZPHI JOURNEAUX (Post 1925724)

So that really puts it in context..... women are under a different standard, their pledging processes are a lot different than anything I've seen, cause well women are emotional, men we like a sense of accomplishment... Yes we actually want our members to feel like they accomplished something, and it wasn't just given to them...

thanks for the first bit of good advice. ill look into the pledging standards for other frats.

thanks

Originally Posted by Senusret I (Post 1925726)

Do what's best for your fraternity, period.

Originally Posted by AZPHI JOURNEAUX (Post 1925735)

I'm going with yes, apparently everything we do is hazing in some manor, you must be an English major eh? sorry if i lack the will power to go through an edit my posts online... its not a peer reviewed journal, or a paper for class or work. I don't feel like checking my work my bad.

Writing well is something we should do whenever we are representing our organization in public.

As for the quote

Um don't be too quick to judge. I came here looking for advice, and got that everything that is "required" is hazing so when i pull up a situation where someone else does it its suddenly not hazing? APO has many of the same standards we have. if not all the same standards.

>> You asked for "critique and compar(ison). That's what I did.

Also the light is a joke, if you don't get that, theres a problem... And i have been interview in a dark room by the NSA before, not something id repeat. nor care to talk about. Our interviews are not anything like it.We don't interrogate, we interview, there are 2 sides to a conversation.

>> There was no indication that this was a joke.

As for the sense of accomplishment, no I'm not being sexist, I'm being realistic, men are purpose driven, we love to achieve and making it thought this process has made better people from all of us. we raised hundreds of dollars for charitable causes and spent many many hours on community service to make a name for ourself in the community.

>> Yes, that is a sexist statement. Men and women have differences, but one gender does not own the patent to living a purpose-driven life.

I am happy to hear that your org has spent many hours in the name of service. In my opinion (and you can take it or leave it), THIS is what you should focus on, not the scary interrogation or senseless tasks. That doesn't mean that the process can't be fun or lighthearted, but I think that there are better way - in the name of service - to accomplish this.

As for women I'm sure they do have a degree of achievement for getting something handed to them, the pledging process isn't suppose to be a showering of gifts, otherwise it would not be there. they need to know that everyone before them has don this, its not dangerous, and there are other options if they ever feel uncomfortable.

>>My pledge processes (I am a member of an NPC sorority and a National women's service sorority) did not consist of a "showering of gifts".

Just because "it's always been done" a certain way, and just because you don't perceive "real" danger, doesn't mean that it's all okay. Can you understand that?

The degree of insult in your statement lets me know that you feel that you earned something. if you didn't have any requirements for getting it, how does that make it so important?

>> I am not saying that you should not have guidelines or steps to achieve in gaining membership. I am saying that the tactics are skewed. Again, my opinion.

There has to be standards in every organization otherwise i would play for the Yankees getting paid millions cause i can suck at baseball. but getting rid of me isn't an option cause then we would have requirements and that would mean that some people don't quite fit what we are looking for.

>> I sincerely believe that if you look at your stated ideals, you can find appropriate and effective methods for your pledges to learn and grow in the processes of becoming a member/brother.

What this helps us pick out,
Dedicated people
people that are willing to learn
people that are willing to serve
people that are able to live in the real world, cause eventually shit might not go as you 100 percent like.

>> ??

I'm asking you people to be realistic. The pledging process isn't a joke and isn't taken to the level of hazing you all think it is, society needs to change cause this is sad. really freaking pathetic.

>> You said it isn't a joke, but earlier, you said that you, yourself, played "the game".

In some places, even a low "level of hazing" is too much. There are laws, and some people take them very seriously. Society has changed, hence all the risk management guidelines and procedures in (Inter)national organizations. We are being realistic and letting you know what we (collectively and personally) feel about what you have shared here.

Originally Posted by AZPHI JOURNEAUX (Post 1925724)

So that really puts it in context..... women are under a different standard, their pledging processes are a lot different than anything I've seen, cause well women are emotional, men we like a sense of accomplishment... Yes we actually want our members to feel like they accomplished something, and it wasn't just given to them...

thanks for the first bit of good advice. ill look into the pledging standards for other frats.

thanks

Originally Posted by AZPHI JOURNEAUX (Post 1925725)

hazing is defined as "Hazing is at term used to describe various ritual and other activities involving harassment, abuse or humiliation used as a way of initiating a person into a group."


to answer the question no hazing isn't necessary, its the degree that you put effort forward that requires a measure.

its like taking a class, is my teacher hazing me by making and forcing me to study for tests OMG I SHOULD SUE cause everything is hazing then, to be a part of something substantial you need limits.

Originally Posted by AZPHI JOURNEAUX (Post 1925735)

I'm going with yes, apparently everything we do is hazing in some manor, you must be an English major eh? sorry if i lack the will power to go through an edit my posts online... its not a peer reviewed journal, or a paper for class or work. I don't feel like checking my work my bad.

As for the quote

Um don't be too quick to judge. I came here looking for advice, and got that everything that is "required" is hazing so when i pull up a situation where someone else does it its suddenly not hazing? APO has many of the same standards we have. if not all the same standards.

Also the light is a joke, if you don't get that, theres a problem... And i have been interview in a dark room by the NSA before, not something id repeat. nor care to talk about. Our interviews are not anything like it.We don't interrogate, we interview, there are 2 sides to a conversation.

As for the sense of accomplishment, no I'm not being sexist, I'm being realistic, men are purpose driven, we love to achieve and making it thought this process has made better people from all of us. we raised hundreds of dollars for charitable causes and spent many many hours on community service to make a name for ourself in the community.

As for women I'm sure they do have a degree of achievement for getting something handed to them, the pledging process isn't suppose to be a showering of gifts, otherwise it would not be there. they need to know that everyone before them has don this, its not dangerous, and there are other options if they ever feel uncomfortable.

The degree of insult in your statement lets me know that you feel that you earned something. if you didn't have any requirements for getting it, how does that make it so important?

There has to be standards in every organization otherwise i would play for the Yankees getting paid millions cause i can suck at baseball. but getting rid of me isn't an option cause then we would have requirements and that would mean that some people don't quite fit what we are looking for.


What this helps us pick out,
Dedicated people
people that are willing to learn
people that are willing to serve
people that are able to live in the real world, cause eventually shit might not go as you 100 percent like.

I'm asking you people to be realistic. The pledging process isn't a joke and isn't taken to the level of hazing you all think it is, society needs to change cause this is sad. really freaking pathetic.

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06 (Post 1925767)

Originally Posted by AZPHI JOURNEAUX (Post 1925724)

So that really puts it in context..... women are under a different standard, their pledging processes are a lot different than anything I've seen, cause well women are emotional, men we like a sense of accomplishment... Yes we actually want our members to feel like they accomplished something, and it wasn't just given to them...

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1925762)

I can't believe people can expouse such nonsense about the genders with a straight face.