Re: ok, now you're all in really big trouble....
 

Exactly, just because there is a thread that someone doesn't like doesn't mean it should be closed in my opinion. This is a political debate. Can you imagine if at a real debate, one person walks away because they don't like the topic?

Obviously they won't see who they like better and decide what to do but with all these people threating to leave make the decission of the mods even harder.

Your right, I shall withdraw my threat and be a man about it. I respect any decision the moderator will make. But it won't mean I will be a happy camper. I apologized to the moderator for putting them in that position.

I'm incredibly disheartened. I'm sad that someone would, in these horrible times, post something that was as incredibly anti-american as that post was. We need to support our nation, instead of searching for what we've done wrong. Perhaps, Arya, if you had been in NYC or if you had had a friend who was killed by the arrogance of the Terrorists last month, you would have thought more throroughly about posting something that might offend most of the people on this board. I refuse to partake in pointing out what's bad about America and Americans. I also refuse to sit here and worry about what other countries think of us. We've done a great deal for other countries, more, I think than we should have done- yet we get very little respect from anybody. American's help feed the children and hungry in your very own country~ so how can you sit there and insult our society and tell us that we are like the people who have been so against us for so long?

That said- I would also like to make note that although even I was incredibly offended and upset by Arya's post, I find it very immature and silly to say that you'll leave just because a post will or will not be taken down. I sincerly hope with everything I am, that you will all stay. It is America, after all, and there is something we call Freedom of Speech. If you are so Pro-American, than you should, of all people, respect and acknowledge this basic right, given to ALL Americans.


Always,
Jessica

Actually, one of my friends who i grew up with is missing in WTC. I grew up in Forest Hills, NY and I've known many.

Calm down...

It was ill advised to post these "comparisons," however this won't be the first or the last of this kind of thing we see.

This is not the first post from Arya that I've thought was out of place.

However, as this "war" goes on, the debate over whether it's just, smart, worthwhile, being executed properly and a miriad of other things will show up.

Sooner or later the "Hawks" and "Doves" will probably have at each other.

I was a college student (and ROTC cadet) during the height of the Vietnam "Conflict" and a paraphrasing of, "America, Love it or Leave It," is a concern to me. Freedom of speech and discussion is one of the basic tennants on which our Constitution is based and upon which our country was founded. Nowhere does it say, "You can have any opinion you want as long as I agree with it."

"My country, right or wrong," is something we've all heard. As I understand it, that quote is generally taken somewhat out of context. The quote may not be exact, but I believe the entire thought is, "My country, may she always be right -- but, right or wrong, my country." In other words, I will support my country -- but I don't have to always agree with it.

If something endangers our national security, it should be surpressed. This doesn't.

Extremism vs. extremism is a recipe for disaster.

Name calling (Commie) doesn't help.

Remember that it was, to a large extent, the dissent of the "Anti-war" movement and later the media that helped bring an end to Vietnam.

Having said that...

There is little or no parrallel between the present situation and Vietnam that I can see. The North Vietnamese Army or Viet Cong never attacked on American Soil. While most of us (myself included) believe that the events of September 11 and days after demand a reply in kind, we still must leave room in our minds for thoughtful discussion -- pro and con.

I simply hope that our country and allies have the intestinal fortitude to bring this to a real conclusion. I'm not sure we've done that since World War II. Consider Korea, Vietnam and Desert Storm. Have any of the people or governments that started those actions really been toppled? If we're going to do this, let's finish it this time. If not, let's quit now.

But, that is a digression.

The First Amendment doesn't apply to the web, as far as I know, and probably wouldn't come to play in this case anyway, however the reasons for its existance were drawn from the supression of opposing views and opinions.

Arya, I think this was a dumb thing to post -- and I wish you hadn't -- but it is your right to do it. No matter how ill advised. If other posters choose to abandon this forum because of this posting, it is their loss in the long run.

And ours.

Fraternally,
DeltAlum

Then I find it even more cruel that you would post something so Anti-American.

I'm really dissapointed.
Why must people always be so negitive.

Always,
Jessica

I commend you Ayra from withdrawing threat. You make the chit chat mods decision easier because there will be a little less pressure. I don't mean to anger anyone. I don't like the post and don't really want it here like some others. Some people want it to stay. We should all respect everyones opinions even though we may not like them. Everyone is big on free speech on here so there should be no real big debate on opinions. If we could cut out the threats the thread wouldn't "flame" as much I think.

At first i thought this thread should be closed, not b/c of the content, but b/c it is still a sensitive time but could maybe be brought up in the near future.
First, I would just like to say that this thread has Bill Mahr Episode written all over it. Anyone else see any similarities? :)
For both cases I agree with two things. One, both people (anyone for that matter) has a RIGHT to say how they feel. HOWEVER, there's a place and a time. And even though its been more than a month, many Americans are still feeling the effects and people to a point have to watch what they. We have to remember that this is a country that at one point if anything bad was said about the government during a time of war a person could be sent to jail or executed for Treason.
I am not pro-war and Im not anti-war also. This man used our own people and planes as missles killing thousands of innocent people. SOMETHING has to be done. Talking hasnt worked, so what does someone suggest besides war? If you have any ideas please send them .....nevermind, I dont think Congress is opening any mail.
I agree that America isnt sweet and innocent. I happen to think that sometimes we can be way arrogant and we shooudltn force our ways on countries that dont want it. Sometimes we dont help the situation. But I wouldnt generalize by saying a majority or large amounts of counrties hate us. We have many, but we have way more that agree with our views (former poli sci major).
Lastly, I would have to say that you shouldnt judge George Bush unless you know. There is no way you can say that he is arrogant, spolied, whatever. So the man has money, so his dad was president...BIG WHOOP! Majority of preisdents had financially happy lives. And Bin Laden is the only terrorist I know that actually had money. It was in my belief that people who do these things have almost nothing, and feel since this is the case, they have nothing to lose by doing these acts.
By the way leaving b/c the post is open or closed is not gonna solve.
My $1.00 worth

Desicions from the mods. Sounds like the final round of survivor or something. Don't worry about it dude whatever their decision is, it is.

Your right, UMGirl- it does have Bill Mahr written all over it- and you know what he got for it?
He got pulled from three major networks until he apologized for it. And apologize he did.


Jess

Yes...which many ppl take for granted...do you know that there are countries in the world that will execute for treason even if it isn't in a time of war? More or less to say..anything that is negatively said about the gov't could ultimately result in prison or death.
We have the luxury to speak our thoughts..others in other countries do not.

d

The Point to my Thread
by Arya

This thread is to show people that beside how we as American feel, there are another side to how people felt. Bin Ladin came into prominance in various steps. The first step was his financial support for the Mujahidin. And let us clear on thing, bin Ladin was never the warrior he claimed to be. Records showed that he was a fund raiser. Probably fired a round at a can. He was the money man, nothing more, nothing less. But he was also very charismatic and very well educated. This gave him prominance as a "freedom fighter" after the Soviet got their ass kicked.

The second steps of his comming to being is after the Iraqi invasion. He had a legitimate quarell about having a foreign military in the soil of a holy land. It is debatle if he is right or wrong. At this point, he started to railled against the American presence in the holy land. Now if he was in a democratically elected government, he could put point his view through the parliment or whatever it is they called it. Seeing that it's an autocratic state, he was silenced. That probably made him into what he is today. well let us fast forward a little.

Approximately two years ago, the Sudan government, wishing to be out of our list of states that sponsored terrorism, offered to extradite bin Ladin to us for the embassy bombing. This is where it gets interesting, the FBI wanted him, but the States Department did not. This is the first failiure of our government that lead to the tragic event. Second step was when the French, Israelist and the Phillipines warned the CIA of an imminent attack on our soil. It was ignored. Second failiure of our government. Third failure is the fact that most of this "agents" came into our country with their real name. Yet, they were able to get a visa.

I'm probably confusing the hell out of you and are probably asking "Arya, what does this have to do with the thread." Well, I'll get to the point now. Our government has done many many bad thing in the past. Prop up dictators such as SUharto, Pinochete, Hussein, the Shah of Iran, etc. Using the defitnition given by our leader, the government could be accused of being a terrorist state. But I would disagree because a terrorist directly attack the innocent. So why does many people hate our government. Here I would like to seperate between their hatred of our government and the relation to them and us. I've been to Iran and I could tell you that they wouldn't care less. They do remmember our action, but doesn't hate me as an American. The thread is to show how people could feel that bin Ladin was justified. It is not to argued if that feeling is right or wrong. Just like we may think that it is wrong to feel that way, they too could feel that how we think about the bombing is wrong. Hope that clears up.

I am not worried dude.:) I am just glad I am not the mod of this forum.

My guess is that if it isnt gone by now.....probably not going ;)