OK this is getting out of hand. People let us be realistic here. We are simply talking about the welfare and safety of all. Now put yourself in the shoes of those who lost family members in this tragedy. Would you not want them to keep the search going until they found them all, even if it took them removing people from planes or whatever the case maybe. What if your mother, father sister, brother, husband, or child went to work or wherever and was killed like these people were, you mean to tell me that you would not want them to find the killers and possibly prevent more deaths by any means necessary? I don't think any of you would have a problem with it then. I lost someone I knew in this foolish act and she left behind 3 beautiful children and you know what the smallest one said tell mommy to come back home I'll be good. She does not understand that mommy will NEVER come back home. So I want them to get those bastards and I don't give a dayum how they do it.

Soror Deltabrat, Ditto!!!

Re: analogy...
 

Yes some of what you said was true, but also realize just b/c of my position on the subject don't think for a minute that I rally around any flag or any white person, b/c I don't. I never have or never will think this is MY country. But when it comes to protecting me and mine there is no such thing as going to far. Whether you realize it or not we will always be on the bottom no matter what is going on. And trust me they knew when it happened who it was. We both know good and well that they are not going to show anyone any proof. The actions of our government have always and will always be a secret. And you are preaching to the wrong people if you are worried about our legal system and our people going to jail you need to be telling it to the mislead youth that are committing these crimes and breaking the law. And I think we all will agree with you on the fact that our legal system is unfair to blacks, but talking about it is not going to change it you need to be about it.

Re: Re: analogy...
 

Sister, you are right...we do need to be about it, I agree w/ you whole heartedly in that regard especially when it comes to the legal system. THat is why I am pursuing a legal career and developing systems that will allow for (I hope) Black people to finally find some rest from terrorism. I am also working in conjunction w/ other like minded Black people to liberate our young people from this violent way of life. Hopefully our programs will make a huge impact, and I ask that you and others would pray for us as we continue to fight.
I know how hard this is...I am still waiting for word on 2 people as well. But I cannot justify hurting innocent people just to try and keep me and mine safe.
THat is the same, very same argument that White's have been using against us for years...especially at the height of the lynching campaigns. The fact that many of us are alright with the fact that this country can go to war w/o one shred of evidence that would stand up even in our own court rooms, is apalling. THe problem w/ that argument is that it is reactionary, and short sighted. "If one of you or your kind hurt me (I think, because at this point, we still don't know who did it) I feel justified in wiping you all out because you may think the same" just doesn't make sense...especially since none of us reacted the same way against white people when TImothy McVeigh destroyed those innocent lives. If we who subscribe to that argument, that it is ok to discriminate (terrorize) against whole groups of people because one of them hurt us, then we need to check ourselves.
How many of us who believe that way, stopped riding on busses w/ White people after Timothy McVeigh was accused? How many of us stop riding on planes w/ white people after that? How many of us accused the entire White race of possibly planning our distruction after Jim Jones, or David Koresh, or McVeigh? Not many. So why is it alright to do so now when the victims are Arab?
Let's ask ourselves, are we really ready to DIE, or go to WAR because we think, that one group may have had something to do w/ what happened? Especially considering that it will be Blacks who are sent to the front lines, as we always are? What happens if we go to war (and against whom would we go?) against Afganistan for example, and then in 2 months a group in Japan takes credit for the bombings? Or if we find out that the terrorists were really a part of a Canadian renegade group of Indigenous people? How can we even think of supporting a war against a people who have never been found guilty?
If this country can go to war, w/ no proof, and have the full support of the people here, what is to stop the government from finding us (Black people) guilty of anyting w/ no evidence?
As far as always being on the bottom, well I respectfully must disagree. If that is the case, then what is the point? I am a follower of the teachings of Christ, and I have come to the conclusion that if Jesus did not lie, then there is no excuse for us to be on the bottom. Didn't He say that we would do greater things than He? Didn't He say "let this mind be in you which is also in Christ JEsus"? Doesnt' the Word say, that where the Spirit is, there is LIBERTY? If God is real, and I know not everyone accepts this premise, but If God IS REAL...then we DO NOT HAVE TO STAY AT THE BOTTOM. Seriously. Because if we do, then what is the point in living--if you know that we will never advance, never have success as a people, then what is the point? As soon as we realize that our freedom is based on OUR ability to see truth and act in our OWN BEST INTEREST...as soon as we realize that our FREEDOM is not negotiable, then we can COLLECTIVELY get somewhere. My own personal philosophy is that I can not be a true success as long as a represent a people who are enslaved. That is why I am and will continue to dedicate my life to the freedom of Black people.
Sister, I don't mean to imtimate that you rally around the flag :). But if we accept that it is alright to start a war w/ no proof, and think that it's OK for the gov't to act in secret on something so pivitol, then let's also recognize that it was that type of thinking that allowed for the Tuskeegee experiment, and the four year bombing raids that this country committed (IN SECRET) during Nixon's presidency against Cambodia, (a NEURTRAL AND INNOCENT) country during the Veitnam war, and the bombing of the pharmaceutical company in Sudan that destroyed our African brothers and sister's ability to get the life support medicine they needed. If we don't start thinking outside of this American box,then I fear that the bombing of those towers and the pentagon were only the beginning.

This conversation should not be centered around Black people and White people. We're losing sight of the point b/c apparently many Blacks and Whites would not feel safe flying with a Muslim. The point is to look beyond the immediate threat of danger and need for safety. We need to understand what the implications of allowing racial profiling (even in instances such as this) to occur in society. For years, Blacks have made a point of NOT being judged based on our appearance and race. Why is it okay for Arab Americans and other Muslims to be judged? It is not okay. My heart aches for those impacted by these terrorist attacks...but I cannot condone the treatment of those Arab Americans on the flight. I agree that the airline reserves the right to refuse services to people...but this refusal should not be solely based on race, religion, and/or ethnicity. When I hear Amerikkkans say things such as...and I quote "We should round up all of the Muslims, the good ones and the bad ones...because we can't tell the difference...and question them," I am angered. This country has been too consumed by ignorance and we cannot allow such tragedies to bring out, and accentuate, that ignorance. We need to be weary of the snowball affect...one incident leads to another, and another, and another...who's to say when it should stop?

For the people who agree with racially profiling the Arab Americans, would you feel the same way if the terrorists had been African or African Americans? Meaning, the racial profiling we've experienced thus far we'll be taken to another level. Will you eagerly agree to remove yourself from a flight because someone who happens to be the same race has perpetrated such a horrendous crime?

I have been trying to figure out how we got on black and white also. But LQ you say that they passed security measures and nothing was detected, but that was the case the first time and now thousands are dead so what do you suggest we do. Let us be honest with each other here, do you actually believe that the US has no proof and if they did they would tell us. When did the gov't get so open and honest, b/c no one told me. And I also am a follower of Christ and until we as a people can come together and stop killing ourself we WILL always be on the bottom. Does the Bible not say an eye for an eye, so if we ignore what has happened and not do any and all things possible to find those responsible it will be open season on America. And whether or not this is my, your or their America, I live here and I want it as safe as possible. No matter how they do it.

proof
 

I don't recall saying that they passed security measures the first time, I think someone else did. I don't know enough about the security measures to comment on htat.
The reason I made analogies to the Black/White issue is because the relationships between Whites and Blacks set the tone, and are related to racism of all people, no matter what country they are from. Like the quote I have below, if we don't understand how White supremacy is working through this (and other) situation, then everything else that we do understand about it is just off.
Do I honestly believe the gov't has no proof...well I don't know. NOne of us do. But American history shows that this government will do what it wants, when it wants, proof be damned. Look at the cases I mentioned in previous posts...What proof did the government have in any of those cases? Have they ever needed proof? No. Never. And we as citizens rarely learn from our history (or learn our history at all) so we don't even stop to question. in fact, other countries are beginning to demand proof as well. GErmany, Pakistan, and other European countries have finally realized that "bin Laden hates freedom" just is not going to cut it as far as proof is concerned. I am glad that some countries are at least aware of the fact that war should not be predicated on emotional, logicless arguments.
As far as coming togeher to stop killing ourselves, I agree. In addition, we need to understand that we are killing ourselves because we are still suffering from the effects of slavery.
Here's why I say that: If you have twin daughters, alike in every way humanly possible, except one has brown hair, and one has black. Say you treat the black haired girl with allof the respect and dignity that human life deserves. You pour every ounce of goodness that is within you, into the black haired child. You giver her every opportunity she will ever need to be a success and happy in whatever she decides to do w/ her life.
Then you have the brown haired girl. And you do the exact opposite w/ her. You beat her, allow her to be raped, destroy her very ability to see herself as human. YOu deny her every opportunity, you kill her spirit.
THen the girls turn 18, and you realize you made a mistake in treating them the way you did for all of their lives. So you apologize, admit you were wrong, and say to the girls "Girls, I was wrong, and I'm sorry. NOw go out and be productive citizens."
Now do you think that those girls are going to be able to live a happy life? Even the Black haired girl is going to be twisted and warped from this experience and never truly be able to see the brown haired sister as an equal. And she will act accordingly and teach her children to do the same. The brown haired girl...well her life is essentially ruined and she will constantly battle to see herself as human.
Saying that to say, that this is what happened to us as Black people for 400 years. And after slavery, we did not get counseling to address our psychoses, neither did we recieve access to all of the things (tangible and intangible) that the other "sister" got. We still have trouble seeing ourselves as human--so understandibly, "coming together" is not going to be enough to stop us from killing ourselves. If we don't go to the root of the problem, then we'll face another century of surface discussions that don't address the issues that Black people face.
Sorry for the length, but it is an important issue. Yes the Bible says that, so the the Qu'ran, and every other holy book. And eachof them also say something to the effect of "Vengence is mine, turn the other cheek". But I think to simply use any of those scriptures and pray in ignorance for our own version of justice is unhealthy.
Don't you even want to know WHY someone would do something like this to other people? Maybe if we get to the root we will find that America has sewn seeds of destruction throughout the world for the past 400 years. At some point the world will provide a harvest. Again, sorry for the length, but I really appreciate the chance to discuss topics like these with other intelligent Black women. It is a rare opportunity inded. By the way, for the rest of the non-Western world, America has enjoyed its own version of open season. When will we stop defining ourselves by man-made borders and start to see the larger, human issue?

All of this going back and forth is not going to bring us any closer to agreeing so let me say I will agree to disagree:)

Soror, it's not about agreeing. This should be a forum for intelligent discussion and debate. No one is trying to make others agree with their point of view. If we all agreed on topics such as this one, it would be a boring world. It is, however, important to be able to articulate differing viewpoints effectively, which I think we have accomplished.
I agree with using Black and white relations in America as an analogy, I was one of the first to do so. However, that, in and of itself, is a heated topic. I just didn't want us to go of on THAT tangent because, to be honest with you, some people may have some feelings that may be a bit too harsh for a forum such as this.

Soror, I am aware of what type of forum this is and what it is for. I was not saying that we should agree, I was stating a type of closure for my postings in this thread, that is why I said I would agree to disagree.

Re: proof
 

I agree with this statement 100 percent. While this attack, and the loss of human life is terrible, this has been a long time coming.

To get back on topic, I understand where people are coming from when they say that they want to feel safe, and they wouldn't feel comfortable flying with someone who LOOKS (notice I stressed looks) like they are on Arabic descent. What I disagree with is the singling out of people just because they fit a physical description. I checked all of the photos of the hijackers, and let me tell you something--some of them, to me, don't look Arabic.

My point is, if we are going to scrutinize, then let's scrutinize everyone. We know that they are more in our midst, but who is to say that they are Arabic? Hell, they could be White, Black, or Latino for all we know. We didn't expect two landmarks to come crashing down and the massive loss of life, so we as a country should expect the unexpected.

Agree...
 

True, but I hope you enjoyed the discussion as much as I did! :)
I agree w/ you sorority sister who spoke to the importance of intellectual discussion. I think if more folks had discussions like this, then we would be a lot closer to solving our problems, even if they agree to disagree! :)

Re: Agree...
 

I did indeed enjoy this discussion. I found it both enlightening and mentally stimulating. I hope we can do it again real soon.

:) YID

hmmm...
 

Loss for words
 

I am somewhat speechless about this subject. Everyday, I would pass it and say to myself, my views are irrelevant. However, today I feel compelled to let my thoughts run if you don't mind ladies and gentlemen. I honestly feel embarassed and shameful that people would have the AUDACITY to fix their lips to say they wanted the Arab Americans removed from the flight. I know that right now, we are still blown back by this horrific tragedy that has happened, but if you are going to feel that way, maybe air travel shouldn't be your means of transportation right now. I wonder did they ever think of how the Arab Americans felt? I am sure, they were scared just like the other passengers, hmmm they are Americans too. I know they are getting an increase of violent and derogatory offenses now that this has happened. I am sure, they are all about protecting and defending their country(America) but look how their fellow countrymen treat them:rolleyes: Matthew 19:19 States to Honour Thy Father and Thy Mother and THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF All of this will come to pass, but it is written that all of this was going to happen in our Bible. This is not the end of the world, it is the beginning of sorrow. I know that we are extremely angry at many Middle Eastern countries. There time WILL come. Just be patient my brothers and sisters!! The Lord will not put more on you that you can bare.
May God Bless You All