I'm glad you realize what I've been saying from the beginning--a belief in a Southern chapter hierarchy isn't based on fact. :D

I think most chapters in the nation with a house will have at least six figure operating budgets.

I guess you could be right, but then again, I've been to several chapters where their operating budget is barely as large as our social budget. But either way, I guess I'd rephrase from 6 figure, to several hundred thousand pr seven figures.

Shiner, you should have said 5-6 figure social budgets....which I know is true for many including some down here in Austin. Hell, lets just say the budgets are large enough to do whatever you please, whenever you want. i.e. - unlimited funds.

Sorry, long post....

Isn't everyone soooo tired of having the same old hazing discussion? No one really has a clear definition of hazing.

ADPi says making the "new members" clean the house is hazing. It's even hazing if I'm cleaning it with them. My chapter told me I could get in trouble for buying a "new member" a drink. I was told I couldn't use profanity around the "new members". "New members" and actives alike no longer have to stand when an Aluma enters the room. All this is a crock of SH**.

None of this is hazing.

Rules like the above are the reason Greek invovlement is down. You can have a girl come in, pay her money, and never even know 1/2 of the chapter members' names, never say thank you when an alumna comes to help, never bother with anything non-scholarship related.

Making them scrub the toilet with a toothbrush, yelling profanities directed AT them in a non-joking manner, and forcing them to drink 20 shots IS hazing, and in NO WAY should be tolerated.

New members these days have NO respect. We took away the term pledge so the have no loyalty to anything. I do not believe in ANY sort of mental or physical hazing. I would also NEVER participate in anything like that. But I
respect the people that came before me. And joining just to pad your resume or for networking purposes pisses me off.

Greek life today is for those who fall into 5 catergories:

1. Legacies who don't realize it's not the same as your mom/dad/whoevers chapter
2. People that like to hang out and have extra money to spend
3. People who see an opportunity to network
4. People who view it as a way to keep their grades up
5. People who want to hang out with the opposite sex

Sororities, and some fraternites are no longer sister/brotherhoods. Most GLOs are soooooooooo deseprate to be the 'biggest' (READ: best) that they'll take just about anybody. I'd rather have 5 dedicated members who will BLEED azure blue and white than have 100 member who just want to say their and ADPi.

If you go to the right schools......then joining a fraternity as a legacy will give you a definite chance to be exactly like your father. I'm doing it right now. When you have power......it makes a huge difference

Biggest doesn't read best....I disagree with that statement. Sig Eps are the types that take everyone with their Balanced Man program...and it destroys their chapter.

I guess the schools that I like to frequent haven't jumped on that bandwagon of not being very selective and not using the term "pledge."

First line- um, yeah, because chances are that buying a new member a drink is ILLEGAL as most new members will be under 21. So it is both illegal and can be a risk management issue.

Your next point that I quoted- citations, please?

The next point- examples, citations, etc.? Maybe if you picked the respectful women to join your group and treated them with respect yourself. Respect is earned, it is not a right. It doesn't sound like you have much, if any respect for new members, so why should they respect you? And what do you even define as "no respect"?

As for the last one- again, citations, etc.? It's just a meaningless blanket statement with absolutely nothing to back it up.

Hope you feel better after your rant, because most of what you said is blatantly false.

So which do you fall into?

I'm 6. Those who meet life long friends during that short time of rush

Oh, and I just graduated, so I must qualify as "Greek Life these days"

Hi i just discovered this forum today and this thread caught my attention so i have some things to say.

my background: i have been in a somewhat small frat with less than 20 chapters nationwide for a year. people like to keep it that way so we have quality guys over quantity (i know at least 1 person from every chapter). it is known for "hazing" heavily which is probably the reason i'm in it. call me stupid if you want, but before joining, i had thought about my reasons in doing so for 5-6 months. here are my reasons/goals hoping to accomplish for joining (listed based on priority):

1. a brotherhood, not a friendship
2. a personal goal (accomplishing a difficult mental and physical task)
3. forced time management/school
4. fun/memories
5. network

after my pledgeship i can say with confidence that all but #3 were fulfilled right away. #3 took a little more time to achieve and i'm still in the process of improving that.

my stance on "hazing": i have been using the term "hazing" in quotes this whole time because of its ambiguity i've seen throughout the thread. to me, "hazing" doesn't exist in greek life. this is my opinion because "hazing" can't be tied to something that is completely voluntary. i.e. when you are in a frat/sorority and "hazing" occurs, you can choose to depledge anytime. in the military, there is hazing because once you sign a up and go off to basic, there is no depledging.

i think joining a GLO needs to be set apart from just a group of friends. that difference is pledging and all the difficulties and challenges that go with it. without that difference, you might as well join a group of people who are friends with common interests and call it the baby sitters club.

when i was pledging "hazing" didn't directly build brotherhood. the things that build brotherhood are the sharing of time, experience, trust, and sacrafice. it just so happens that the method of "hazing" in my frat includes all of those. for everyone in my frat "hazing" gets harsh, but in the end, those who are "hazing" will always congratulate the pledges, no grudges exist, and nothing is personal. i.e. after a long night and finishing a difficult event, actives who were yelling, acting mean, and being harsh during the event, would always congratulate pledges when they finished their task. it is in this that pledges will see respect, and feel brotherhood.

for those who have never experienced "hazing": i am telling you that based on my experiences it for sure made me closer to my brothers in the frat. if you can say the same about your GLO sisters/brothers when you haven't gone through it, ask yourself why you call them your sisters/brothers and not just close friends? (and the answer to that is not in the letters you wear)

what is a brotherhood without sacrafice? what is a brotherhood without knowing the other person's pain? what is a brotherhood when you can't cry infront of them? what is a brotherhood when you can't be direct and honest? what is a brotherhood without unique experiences to reflect and laugh on? what is a brotherhood without secrets and inside jokes? what is a brotherhood without respect?

the bond of best friends exists because they have all gone through hard times with eachother, whether it be together or against eachother, hard times nonetheless.

imagine then the origin of the bond of brotherhood...



“We few, we happy few, we band of brothers. For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother; be never so vile. This day shall gentle his condition. And gentlemen in England now abed shall think themselves accursed they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks that fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.”
-William Shakespeare

hope you had fun in your "frat."

Actually the last one is true. See: Sig EP Balanced Man chapters. "Hey, we think were bad ass becaue we had 85 pledges and a 185 person house."

So do only Big schools and big Houses are acceptable?

I call BS as if it were not for smaller schools then All of the Big GLOs would be a whole lot smaller wouldnt they!

If I had not had been at at a smaller school and LXA had not been expanding I would not be on this Site.

Thank You for You big schools with big Chapters who are better than anyone else!:o

I don't think that big chapters at big schools are better than everyone else. I think many chapters at SMU, TCU, etc. and other small schools are really bad ass. Hell, I go to a university with 55,000+ students and the chapters here are pretty reasonable. I think having huge chapters for the sake of numbers is ridiculous. Since when did selectiveness become a bad thing?

Selectivity is generally viewed as evil on this website...to quote the Academy Award winning film The Skulls, "If its secret and elite, it can't be good." Personally however, if something is secret and/or elite, I want in.