Re: Re: Negative Action
 

:eek: And on that note, I am so over this conversation. I know the "others" will hold it down.

You know, after reading some recent (and past) posts on GC, I am very tempted to start a "Greek Chatters say the darnest things" thread. :D

Go AA
 

RU Greek, you seem pretty intelligent based on your writing. But I wonder, and this is to all those who have misgivings with Affirmative Action, I wonder how much of that opinion is objective, and how much is just because you happened to be born as white people. For example, Palestinians will go all day talking about the injustices of the Israelis, and vice versa, while really those individuals would probably have the opposite opinion if by chance they were born into the "other side." Now while this discussion is very interesting and thought provoking, I would be much more eager to hear from people who have been born in one situation but have the opinion of the other. Are there any minority classified people who dislike AA? I have seen a few white posters who are for it, and I can be included in that group. Honestly, it's ridiculous for white people to sit back and say, "ohh, she/he is stealing a more worthy person's spot just because they're a minority." Really, think how insulting that is. It makes the assumption that finding a worthy candidate for higher education among qualified recipients of AA is not equal to those of the majority. I don't know about you people, but all of the black people on my NYU campus are exremely intelligent, and many of them are much smarter than the white kids who floated in on daddy's money. I would say it's difficult if not impossible for these fears of underqualified minorities taking the spots of more qualified whites actually occuring. And believe me, if it were to happen, nine times out of ten an extra spot would be created for that ONE random instance. Maybe there is a better solution, but until minorities are given better opportunities in PRIMARY education, the ground must be leveled somehow in Secondary education. Also, this whole thing about immigrants having it tough doesn't really compute. I've known many many european immigrant families, and their kids have gone to places like Johns Hopkins, Harvard, MIT, and other such institutions WITH scholarships. Also you must realize, even IF one generation of immigrants has a rough time, the next one is usually more established. But generation after generation black people still have it tough in this country. Why? Because we are still not doing enough, and whites still have the advantages.

Re: Re: Re: Negative Action
 

Well since we all have the same opinion anyway and all:rolleyes: ....

LMAO

Re: Re: Re: Negative Action
 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Negative Action
 

My eyes are wide open, believe me...each time you post, you have me looking at my screen, wide-eyed in disbelief. :eek:

I am not really surprised that people still feel this way. I guess I am disappointed that people STILL do not see anything wrong with it, and are in fact, confident enough to say it with pride.

PM Mama...the fact is that your parents immigrated over here...immigrated...BY CHOICE. Not everyone's ancestors had that luxury. Some were plucked from their native villages and forced to come here under the worst conditions imaginable.

Yes that was the past. But the fact is that the ramifications of it STILL haunt Black people today. The consquences are far-reaching and long-lasting.

It is great that you are able to dust yourself off and try again. Great! But please understand that NOT EVERYONE IS LIKE YOU! (breathing a sigh of relief). And it is not THEIR fault either. They are simply not afforded the same opportunities you are.

I think that at your age, it might be hard for you to unlearn everything that you have been taught. That is very unfortunate because people like you are the reason that oppression, racism, PREDUISM, xenophobia and whatever other label you want to put on it, exist today.

Please do post. I wrote that out of haste. The more you post the more your ignorance is exposed.

Re: Go AA
 

Since you asked . . . I am a white male, and I am for the concept of AA - however, much like lovelyivy, I don't think the implementation is nearly as beautiful as the concept. Something is, most likely, better than nothing, though - and it's way better than something negative.

Very true, esp about the 'insult' portion - but it is equally inappropriate to assume that there exist no instances of the system failing, and having a person of minority status who is less qualified than a comparable white male get a job, or that these don't 'matter', as it is to assume that this is the situation all the time.

It is a logical fallacy to assume that either are the majority of cases - I'd say the majority most likely happen as planned. Either way, I can see how the concept can be extremely insulting to those who are AA-eligible - the point isn't to put incompetent people into jobs. It's to make sure that employers look toward the equally-competent minorities, and try to ensure they don't get passed up just due to race.

Eh . . . I won't make assumptions one way or another - I know that most of the college kids I know, PERIOD, are relatively intelligent, and the black kids (or hispanic, or asian, or whatever) are certainly no exception. Again, there are (most likely) kids of all races that float in on daddy's money - it's unfortunate, and more of these are probably white, but that doesn't make it any better when it happens.

Either way - the vast majority of kids I know at school BELONG there. That would preclude, say, dumbass black kids getting free rides b/c they're black (not that that's been explicitly claimed :rolleyes: ) . . . but that's purely anecdotal, so take that for what you will.

Again, I find it best not to make assumptions either way - if we have no statistical support, I don't know that this type of commentary really leads anywhere. I do think, however, that the thought that AA puts underqualified minorities in the place of more-qualified whites sounds a lot like hysteria, and not a lot like something that can be backed up with more than "well, I know this guy..." . . . but it's hard to prove either way, so people will believe what they want to believe I suppose.

I'd say that both are equally necessary, and most likely are outcroppings of the same root problem - it's just that secondary-education reform is (slightly) easier to pass as legislation, and so that has happened first. The fact that an education gap still exists in America today makes us look more like a 3rd-world nation than the world superpower we claim to be, at least to my mind. Also, I think that the education gap is by and large a by-product of the distribution of wealth in the US - which also is partly a product of education (wealth via jobs via education) . . . talk about a viscious circle. This sort of "poor get poorer" mentality is very hard to counteract.

Ugh, Cloud9, I loved ya until this comment. This sounds, to me, very similar to "BUT THIS ONE HISPANIC GUY GOT A SCHOLARSHIP JUST BECAUSE HE'S HISPANIC!!!" Observation is key in science, but here doesn't hold much weight - immigrants may very well have it tough in general, but not in the few instances you've seen. Again, I don't know the answer, but the logic-class portion of my brain doesn't really like the way this is put - it applies a statistically-insignificant sample to the whole population, much like many of the 'reverse-racism' issues dealt with earlier in the thread.

(note - coloring/italicizing is mine)

The conclusion here is probably the lesson that those of us who don't have minority status in this country should take away from here - not as a "thank God I'm white" thing, but as a "well that's how it is now, how can we change it?" type deal.

But in the words of my favorite social commentator - that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Okay let me explain a few things about me personally and I also want to say that CREAM and EXQUISITE5 are about the only two posts I have read on this thing in awhile that make more than perfect sense. I still don't agree with affirmitive action, but I can truly appreciate your point of view.
This is a baring of my soul so I would appreciate if you have any personal blows to make at to do so with a PM- Here goes
I come from a poor part of Louisville, KY. I grew up in a prodominetly black neighborhood. I never cared, nor do I now, I am proud of where I am from and the relationships I have developed from it.
I have two brothers and my parents neither one were afforded the opportunity to go to college. Their families were poor and they both came from broken homes.
My mother and fathered worked two jobs a piece for many years and put my brothers and I through private schooling when I was young. In fifth grade I was taken out of private schools because I tested into an advanced placement program in the public school system. I was then bused to a very bad part of town (over 65% of the rapes and murders were commited within three miles of my school that year) because I was white. No other reason, and that is what was told to me my first day of school by every student there- I didn't belong and the only reason I was there was because I was white.
I went to a middle school closer to home (remember the poor part of town) and with a very diverse group of kids. In 6th grade Louisville's school system changed so that busing was no longer enforced by where you lived. This meant that if a student in a poor neighborhood wanted to go to a school out in the rich part of town they could and the county is responsible for transportation. I honestly did not know that places do not allow this everywhere (such as the NYC example given). I chose to go to a public high school while my parent worked extra jobs (including weekends) to pay for my brothers to go to a private school in town. I applied for a magnet school here. I had a 4.0 and was a model student. I had to write an essay, audition and have an interview. I was accepted and that is where I went to high school. I got to choose what high school I wanted to go to and where it was. I can't imagine what would have happened if I had been forced to go to my "home" school as they used to call them. Most students that I knew chose schools outside of their home school because they wanted a better education.
Because I watched my parents labor for years to give their children a better education and because myself and my two brothers worked so hard in school, we got to go to college. Not because we are white and had it better, we had it just as hard as anyone.
This is why AA bothers me. My parents did it. My brothers and I did it. We came from a poor neighborhood, worked our arses off and now my brothers are engineers and I am about to graduate cume laude. We had to take out student loans to pay for college, and I will pay them back, no problem. So I get frustrated when I know a few (yes a few, not every person) people that have received scholarships, get a 2.0 every semester and don't have to pay for college because they are minorities. They are not model students, they don't come to class half the time, they complain about doing homework and exams, they are disruptive in class and yet they gladly tell people they don't pay for school, they got a full ride. That doesn't seem fair to me. Why do they get a free college education while I get good grades, I study hard, and do well in school and I have to end up in debt? All because I am white? I could get a free ride through the Native American funds. I am enough Native American to qualify for free college, but I chose not to because I don't think that is a good enough reason to get a free ride. My parents always taught me to work for what I get.
Now, all that being said, can some of you understand why I may feel that AA if unjust? I came from those poor neighborhoods you have talked about. I went to those schools and worked very hard on limited supplies. My parents worked two jobs each to make sure their kids got a good education. They sacrificed so much for us, and anyone else could do the same. That is all I am saying- anyone can do it. It just means hard work.

Re: Negative Action
 

THANK YOU!!

There's just so much that I wanna say but I am truly at a loss for words... :eek: :rolleyes: :o

KC Sig RC made a really good point earlier in regards to the PURPOSE of AA within the working community (I hope you don't get lumped into "our" group :) by me pointing this out ). Anway he said :

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It's to make sure that employers look toward the equally-competent minorities, and try to ensure they don't get passed up just due to race.
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That is all minorities (which includes white women) want is a chance, fair consideration. I honestly believe that if everyone would put their personal experiences aside, and look at the BIG SCHEME of things, this has not been the case. My guess is that maybe if we contact all of the companies listed on the Fortune 500 (and state universities/colleges) to request this statistical data, this will help some of us to "open our eyes".

I appreciate this example. But also you need to understand that it is not a CLASS issue, which is what your story is. It a ETHNICITY/SEX issue. That is what Affirmative Action is.

I don't want to sound like I am bitching, but please for those who type a page long with no paragraph breaks, please use them! It's VERY hard to follow along. Thanks. :)

I was not saying what the example is- i was just explaining why I feel the way I do about AA. It all boils down to I think if you work hard enough you can do whatever you want without your gender or ethnicity being a reason for it.

Did you receive financial aid? I only ask because I am confused as to how one could be self-righteous enough to refuse a race-based scholarship, but not self-righteous enough to accept class-based financial aid.

Neither one has anything to do with scholastic achievement.

They both rely on outside factors to determine who should recieve collegeiate financing.

If the answer to your question is no..then nevermind and congratulations on sticking to your beliefs. If your answer is yes, understand that financial aid is basically an affirmative action to level the playing fields of class.

It just has a different name to make people like you feel better.

prejudist!!!!!

prejudist!!!!!

Sorry, the more I see that post the more I am forced to drop to its ignorance level.

Okay, I am back....

ROFLMAO!!!!!