My point regarding political correctness is more just a general statement about society in modern times. It seems we are in an era of no personal responsibility. Some would say this is exactly what Universities are trying to promote when they ban "hazing," but I think that idea is mistaken. How can you promote PERSONAL responsibility when you are micromanaging the activities you can VOLUNTARILY be involved in. I went to a very conservative school (student body), with very steeped tradition in all facets of campus life, including the greek system. Unfortunately, the members of our administration, as members of academia, are much more "progressive," and would prefer to see us move away from such tradition. However, why should they decide what incoming students, many who are legacies both in GLO's and at the school itself, can participate in? There are advantages to many things considered hazing, such as physical fitness, increased knowledge regarding the fraternity, increased personal responsibility, as well as responsibility for the entire groups performance. Now somebody, please tell me how these things are bad. As I have said repeatedly, I do not support hazing which includes beating pledges, making them do disgusting things, etc...but rather the difficult tasks they must work together on to complete. How is somebody going to get physically injured in a lineup?

Actually, it's real simple. They're covering their legal backsides. If they don't (sometimes even if they do), they get sued along with whomever else can be implicated.

I'm afraid that if injuries, deaths and resulting litigation don't end, the backlash will be toward (although I don't think it can ever be as bad) the In Loco Parentis type rules and regulations that we had to deal with when I was in college.

This has nothing to do with Political Correctness. It has to do with finances. A million dollar lawsuit here -- another one there -- pretty soon you're talking about some real money.

Oh I obviously understand the reasoning the universities use, and trust me, it is about political correctness. You're right, a good deal may be based on financial reasoning, but for example, our professors who vote on issues that involve students and greek life, are generally to the left of normal, and have very PC viewpoints regarding what greeks should be allowed to do. But yes, the administration is concerned only with money in most cases.

While decisions may have a great deal to do with money, I also chose to believe that administrators/faculty also hope to encourage undergraduates to develop into responsible, law abiding citizens. What is so wrong with treating each other with respect?

If you want to be treated with respect at all times, and have your self esteem constantly boosted, don't pledge in the south. However, if you would like to learn how to be an adult male, act as a gentleman, and take personal responsibility, it may be for you. What people fail to realize is that professors and administrators are not usually against fraternities because they don't promote respect for each other, but rather because they simply don't like the types of people in fraternities. Why? Because they're often wealthy, white, republicans, and they don't generally appeal to academia. Fraternities aren't inclusive, nor should they be, and many in the education business have difficulty with this, as they feel everyone should feel included, whether they belong or not.

Some of you take Southern pride to the extreme and act is if there's a 1) hierarchy of chapters based on region and 2) huge difference in most practices (such as pledging and hazing) based on region.

I find that there are several schools in the South where this is not the case...and many chapter members that would take offense to such a label. More and more chapters include Hispanics, Blacks and other ethnicities and often times members have to work to put themselves through school, as well as pay their own dues. I do not think politics has anything to do with faculty/admin feelings toward Greeks. I think it is the lack of a congruence between what we say we believe and what we actually do that causes the most concern and friction. Hazing would be an example of that lack of congruence.

DSTS, thats because there is one, but thats not my point....


Heather, politics has everything to do with it (and not necc. on a republican-democrat example, but that is there as well). Similar example, why are most democrats so against guns? Not because they really think gun control makes us that much safer, it doesn't, but because they dislike the demographics of people who like guns (Southern, White, Republican). Similarly, those administrators and faculty who take action against greeks (and there are a huge amount) generally don't know what goes on in greek life, but they know the stereotypes, and those stereotypes go against what they support. As to your point about my labels, I was referring to the major southern universities where greek life is generally thought to be outstanding. For the purpose of my statements, ignore Florida, it is southern only by geography. When you consider the great southern greek schools such as Ole Miss, Alabama, Auburn, UGA, Texas, Clemson, Washington and Lee, etc... the huge majority of those in white fraternities will be fairly wealthy and very conservative. This will not sit well with academia, but more importantly in contributing to their dislike for fraternities is the fact that they are not inclusive. They generally do not like the fact that there are conscious decisions being made to exclude some people from the fraternity, although that is essential to the functioning of a fraternity. Many in our current society, especially administrators and professors, feel as though students should have their self esteem coddled, and that nobody should face rejection. However, the point of greek life is to join like minded people into a social organization, not to simply create a microcosm of society. People should begin to view greek organizations how they should be viewed, as private clubs.

I thought they disliked them because of all the violence and gang activity not to mention the fact that many children are killed by playing with guns that their parents own and hide. That has nothing to do with being Southern, White, or Republican.

Well lets try and not let the conversation stray to gun control entirely, but yes, it has everything to do with who likes guns. Why then, would you continually support such a failed policy? Statistics have continually proven that gun control does little to curb gun crime (if you don't believe me, check out the best selling book "Freakanomics"). You, as a liberal I assume, probably do feel that gun control is a good idea because you would like to prevent gun crime. Meanwhile, those politicians who vote to enact such legislation are informed to the point they realize gun control does little, but such positions endear them to voters like yourself, while also pitting them against their opposition (wealthy, white, republican). For an example from the other direction, lets look at flag burning or school prayer. As a Republican, I can assure you that very few Republicans feel very strongly about either issue. Why then, are such issues so often brought up? Because it goes against the opposition, those who are the most evil in the GOP's mind, the ultra liberal ACLU types. Trust me, democrats know that the huge majority of gun control measures hold little legitimacy, but they also know that it stirs up the ranks, and is a sharp jab to the opposition.

No......

Well, believe what you will, but there most certainly is. Maybe I don't know enough about other regions (although I'm fairly well traveled), but from what I can tell, in no other region do greek systems hold the clout and prominence that those in the South do. There is much more tradition involved, much more power involved, and often times much more money involved. I'm not putting down other region's greek systems, but the emphasis on greek life in the south is immense, and I really don't think that is refutable. Regarding hazing and pledging, I think there may be a difference, but I'm not sure. In the south, hazing is most commonly for constructive purposes (lineups, putting pledges in difficult situations and requiring them to work together to get out of it), and I don't know what its for everywhere else. I think in there probably is a different aspect of pledging in the South, one that focuses on becoming a gentleman, dressing appropriately...almost a cotillion for students. They may do this other places, but like I said, I don't know.

I believe what I know to be true (versus false and based on biases and self-importance). :)

I'm from/in the South and also know about other regions. That's why I made the initial post. ;)

Of course I'm biased. But it appears that so are you, even to the point that common knowledge eludes you.

That didn't make sense but you knew that already. ;)