You are absolutely right. Unfortunately in our presently pathetic and overly politically correct society, most people do not grasp the concept of having to work towards something. For a long time the long held American ideal of responsibility has been waning, and this is another example. Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, people on this board and around the country still fail to accept the fact that the huge majority of "hazing" isn't making pledges eat disgusting things, harm themselves, betray their beliefs, or taking beatings. The large majority involves overcoming obstacles by working with people you are not comfortable with yet, thus building trust that can last a lifetime. It involves taking responsibility not only for yourself but also those with you, so that your actions effect everyone. Most "hazing" isn't to give the brothers some kicks, it is to allow for the continued strength of the organization. People will point out some guys saying that hazing ruined their lives, but I imagine for every one of those, you could find 10 alumni who say it was fun, productive, and self-esteem building. For those who do go through hazing, don't quit when it gets tough, the outcome isn't people with no self worth, but rather men of character who now have confidence and experience to build upon as they begin college life.

If "hazing" was and is stuff like calling names, water balloons or even a little PT, the anti-hazing laws would never haven been inacted.

Unfortunately, people and groups don't know when to stop, things get harder, things get out of hand and people get killed.

That has nothing to do with Politically Correct.

Then there's that pesky old insurance stuff that everyone would rather overlook because it's so unfair.

So, here's a great idea. Let's ignore all of the laws and rules. Let's forget about insurance and liability.

Haze away. Be sure everyone "earns" his or her badge.

Then, when someone gets injured or killed, you (and your chapter, and your nationals and maybe even your parents) can pay for those millions of dollars in damages for the rest of your lives. Literally.

You think student loans are hard to pay off?

That wouldn't happen to us, you say? We don't do all of that.

Read the other threads in his forum.

I agree.

Its kind of like your parents telling you: "Fine you can't handle no curfew, so now you're in at 9:00," after you do something stupid at midnight.

Or taking away the car or something.

The entire greek system is grounded because we couldn't handle it. Quite frankly I'm glad that our I-week is full of fun stuff and presents instead of hazing. I'm fairly certain that our founders didn't haze, so who gets to decide somewhere down the line that that's how pledges should "earn" it?

That's the crazy thing though. I once read part of an SK History book, I think it was on eBay and there's was pages that you could read. It totally talked about how in the early years, like the first 25, Alpha chapter would do things like a fake initiation. There's no way a fake initiation wouldn't be considered hazing by today's standards. And since it was so early on the founders probably knew about it, if not started it. It shocked me and made me wonder what else they did that would not fly today.

I'd be most interested in finding one of those books! However I do believe there's a difference between the stuff that's been taken away, such as scavenger hunts, and the stuff that is strictly hazing.

I'll again say I love that our Iweek is happy and not mean :)

I remember we begged the older sisters to have a scavanger hunt or something fun like that (my pledge sister Emily said, "I WANT TO BE HAZED!!" lol). Since all "hazing" is not allowed, instead during Inspo Week, the NM get a night with each grade - a sophomore night, a junior night, a senior night, and play games and etc.

Depends on the Hazing.

You're right, there are insurance concerns. Thankfully, my fraternity never made a habit out of telling our nationals or insurance co. everything we were involved in. It has everything to do with political correctness. Thats why regulations go beyond the physical. The current idea of hazing often includes anything that makes a pledge feel uncomfortable or stressed or embarassed. Its great that we protect these 18 year old boys from those things, because God knows they'll never in life face periods where they are uncomfortable, stressed or embarassed.

Which brings us back to the fact that if you do something against the rules or the law and something bad happens or you get caught, you're insurance will be cancelled, declared null and void and will not pay. Read the small print.

Political Correctness is a cop out. It is a nice pair of words to blame most of what people don't agree with and/or it is something to hind behind. The reason for the rules is that hazing has been taken way too far -- and like anything else, when that happens the response is often out of proportion to the "crime."

It is attitudes like, "not telling" your national organization and insurance company that not only causes loss of charter -- but higher insurance rates for the entire organization and the fraternity system as a whole.

As I said above, read the other threads in Risk Management.

No it's not. It's very true. Especially since some of the things that have been enacted - like the terminology changes that EVEN THE INCOMING FRESHMEN DON'T USE - do very, very little to change actual hazing.

I find it ridiculous that people are being initiated who don't know their group's history, have made little effort to know the active brothers or sisters, and who do the least amount possible and don't even understand the concept of wanting to do something to make their group better - but it is happening, because the hazing rules have gone too far. As I've said a million times HAZING AND PLEDGING ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

Agreed wholeheartedly. There can still be pledging without hazing, and it should be a probationary as well as an educational period. There are probationary periods for everything else in life, so why not with a sorority? If you're on a sports team, you're not going to start in your first game ever. If you start at a new job, you won't receive benefits until 90 days after the start date to make sure you're going to stay there. Why should this be any different?

Of course there can be pledging without hazing and the two are certainly NOT the same thing.

I don't think that's the point of this thread, though -- which is "Hazing creates a sense of unity."

I'll also go on record again agreeing that the hazing laws have gone too far. I'll still stand by my beliefs of why that happened. Hazing went way too far and got totally out of control.

As for "Political Correctness," I did a Google search and here are some comments that underscore what I think about that. The comments are from Wikipedia -- not a source I generally even look at -- but they pretty much confirm to me what I've understood "Politically Correct" to be.

"Political correctness (also politically correct, P.C. or PC) is a term used to describe language that appears calculated to provide a minimum of offense, particularly to the racial or cultural groups being described. The term is normally used in a pejorative or ironic sense, and is a frequent target for comedians and satirists.

The concept has been extended by conservative and some liberal (Hentoff 1992, Schlesinger 1998, Brandt 1992) commentators, particularly in the United States, but also increasingly in other countries, to describe what they see as a larger "left-wing political correctness movement" focused on censorship, multiculturalism, identity politics, social engineering, and influencing popular culture through venues such as music, film, literature, arts, and advertising.

Some liberal and progressive commentators, however, argue that the term "political correctness" was fabricated by United States conservatives around 1980 and defined as a way to reframe the political scene in the United States. They say that there never was a "Political Correctness movement" in the United States, and that many who use the term are attempting to distract attention from substantive debates over discrimination and unequal treatment based on race, class, and gender (Messer-Davidow 1993, 1994; Schultz 1993; Lauter 1995; Scatamburlo 1998; Glassner 1999)."


Bottom line of "PC" to me is that, while I don't really care whether it was started by Liberals or Conservatives, most of its usage has nothing to do with the stuff above, but that it has become a usefull and easy container into which anything with which you disagree can be thrown. It's an easy place to lump things. That's why I call it a "cop out."

How is a scavenger hunt a sacred tradition? Does that make kickball, Capture the Flag or Tug of War sacred, too? How does a scavenger hunt help you develop "certain skills" that will help you later on? I don't understand this line of reasoning.

If you look at when these organizations were founded, most will appear to have been founded on the ideals of "social, moral and mental improvement" of its membership. Paddles, scavenger hunts, "Big Brothers" and whatnot were frilly extras added later. Then people started swallowing goldfish, binge drinking as a condition of provisional membership and adopted Lord of the Flies governing mentalities. Then things went horribly awry.

That's the case here. Maybe the laws have gone too far and maybe young men and women need to learn to resist peer pressure more... but those things won't bring someone like Michael Carrington back. If someone acts like a child, his toys will be taken away, and it appears to me that the intern/national volunteers/officers are merely going back to basics.

At some point, as in politics, I have no doubt the pendulum will sway back in the other direction and this era of PC-ness will be behind us. Hopefully, the next generation of collegiate Greeks will have more common sense and committment to one another and there will be no more reports of pledges drinking themselves to death, being hit by cars in a game of chicken or the other myriad psychological and physical torture some of these fringe groups have put their members through-- things that have caused a PR nightmare for those of us who do follow the rules.

you seem like a glass is half empty person.