And...there are women in EVERY NPC who care more about reputation than about sisterhood! It takes all types to make the world go round. If that's all someone wants out of greek life, then I hope their dues were worth it.

Perfection^^

Your statement says it all!

And (I think that many will agree with me?) that these same women should grow up and GET A LIFE. :D

I have noticed that it is not so much the members of the sorority as it is guys in Fraternities that focus on what "tier" the sororities are in. They are the ones that will refuse a mixer with a "lower tier" sorority or who will tent talk to the extreme.

Yup. I love discovering that my friends are greek, but I could care less what house they were in. Simply being greek is a connection and we can share silly stories. It isn't the end all be all.

ForeverRoses, I think you are spot on with your comment. The young men want only to socialize with certain sororities. Ugh

Very true. I went to a smaller school with three NPC chapters, but it was the guys on campus that "ranked" the sororities. Nobody in each group really even cared. With so few chapters, there were never really "tiers", but it was well known what the guys, especially the ones in the fraternities, thought about each chapter.

As to whether that affected girls' decisions as to which chapter they joined... I don't think it did.

But in a competitive formal recruitment setting, I could definitely see girls forming opinions and basing decisions on what the guys on campus think.

No offense was intended, I just read the post in a different manner than the majority of people here.

Most of you were not in GLOs when Wilson Heller published his lists ranking sororities nationally. While his comments were always subjective, his "research" for the ranking was pretty objective. As President of my sorority, I remember receiving a form asking me to rank the other NPC groups on my campus. He then compiled this data from all over the country. Were his results the "be-all-end-all?" No, but it did give readers the perception of the "top" groups nationally.

It is human nature to categorize things/groups/ideas.

I'm not picking on you, SWTXBelle, but why waste time worrying about other people's superiority/inferiority complexes? This is a NPC "panhellenicism" that I just don't understand.

Wasn't the last Wilson Heller list published in the 1970s? Heller had a definite idea as to what made a top group-such frequent expansion to as many schools as possible. However I would have a hard time basing any judgement on data that was last updated 30 years ago.

And more importantly, Nut, do you still believe the "research" to be significant? It is one thing to buy into tiers as a collegian (such as when you filled out your survey) but are you implying that after over 25 years as an alumna that you still find the results relevant or pertinent?

I think the last one was in the early 1980s. I just thought his was a good thread to mention that there used to be a list... Currently, I can completely understand that many don't know the strengths of the NPCs not present on their campus or prominent in their region. Heller's list made me take note of Tri Delta, Kappa, Theta and Pi Phi -- even though they weren't on my campus (even though I was familiar with them due to high school friends joining at other schools.)

I think it is significant for that time. Currently, to speak of the top groups would be purely subjective, but in my opinion, it hasn't changed that much in 25 years.

Pick all you want - I'm a big girl. :)

I don't "waste time", but I also don't have much patience for stupid jr. high-type antics which negatively impact all of us. All of the NPC groups have statements of purpose which include the idea that one reason they exist is to enable their members to live their lives to their fullest potential - so anything that gets in the way of that is, imho, something which we need to eliminate. ( or at the very least, seek to NOT contribute to . . . )

eta - the new release figure method is an example of the good that can come of all of us seeking to advance our common goals.

A-freakin-men.

I've said it before, it's international tent talk. What purpose does talking about "international tiers" serve? Does it do any good?

If we're going to get into a ****ing match, why don't we look at some quantitative methods of determining an organization's strength? Now the accountants on GC will have to help me out with this one (I got Cs in economics and accounting :() but isn't there a percentage or ratio that is used to analyze an organization's strength based on their annual reports?

I would also add that any person who seriously complains about the weakness of their organization probably needs to work harder (volunteer, donate?) to help make it stronger. ;)

I think we talked about this before in the context of most chapters vs. most members. I mean, you can say XYZ has strong alumnae support because they have 100 more alum chapters than anyone else, but what isn't mentioned is that 2/3 of those alum chapters have less than 5 members. Whereas XYZ has fewer alum chapters, but most of them are very active with large memberships.

I don't see anyone complaining about the "weakness" of their organizations. In fact, most of the sorority alumnae on GC are very dedicated to their sorority through advising their local chapter, volunteering as a National officer, being involved with their alumnae chapter, etc.

It bothers me when people insinuate that belonging to a "low tier" chapter or a "low tier" NPC makes them less of a person. If a chapter has happy members who are striving to achieve the standards and live the values of their sorority, that's what ultimately matters.

Talking about tiers has the potential to undo a lot of good that members do, even if it is "quantitative". Kind of like how when Greeks complain that the media will be all over a story involving hazing/drinking yet fail to publicize the merits. Or when sorority women, fraternity men, and independents talk trash about the struggling chapter(s) on campus, even if they are trying to improve. The tent talk hinders their efforts.

If you want to talk about tiers, there are sites designed for just that purpose.:rolleyes:

I have yet to see the purpose tier talk serves. Is it consistent with your sorority's values?

:) This is what I was referring to with my do something about it comment above ...

It is short-sighted to think that if your GLO is "top-tier" then you can afford to look down your nose at the others. The fact of the matter is that the Greek system has always had, and continues to have, enemies who would like nothing better than to do away with ALL of us.

Our best defense is to be strong - to offer a way of college life that embraces the widest possible variety of women, that can offer sisterhood to women of all backgrounds, religions, races and economic means, that seeks to embody in our day to day living the fine words and noble sentiments we have as our creeds, symphonies, and statements of purpose.

The problem with rankings is that they are based on a very narrow set of data - it might be number of members, or chapters, or what have you, but it simply cannot measure the subjective things that can make a smaller chapter or sorority great in their own way. And most of the "ranking" I've seen nowadays tends to be TOTALLY subjective and based on individual perceptions - my personal favorite? When fraternity men base it on the perceived "hotness" of particular chapters. Yep, I've checked - hotness of members is not mentioned as an atribute of any NPC members that I've seen. It could be under the heading of membership selection, but I doubt it . . . :rolleyes:

There are several chapters of NPC sororities at highly competitive schools that do not participate in formal recruitment. I have nothing but respect for the fact that their HQs recognize that while they may not be able to compete in formal recruitment, they still have something to offer to women who might otherwise not have a sorority home.

Also, those women who might not find a home during formal recruitment but who have a great deal to offer a GLO - what of them? You need only review recruitment threads here to see that the system is not perfect, and lovely, smart, talented young women can go bidless. It is not in their best interests - or NPC sororities - to become fixated on meeting the needs of a miniscule number of perceived "top tier" types. That would be our death knell. The system's strength is our best insurance that we will be able to pass our legacy on to generations to come.

here, here!!

I do agree with you.

When Colby College had problems with the fraternities...they did away with the women's groups too.

I'm all for each group in NPC to be the best they can be. We are only as strong as our weakest link, I believe.

Am I the first Pi Phi to post in this thread?

I have a comment pertinent to the OP's original perception of Pi Phi (which does not offend me at all).

I was a Pi Phi in college, and not in a "top tier" chapter. That was fine by me! I knew in college, though, which Pi Phi chapters are generally considered some of the strongest/most popular/top tieriest. It was a topic of conversation! There was even some fascination with them... like... oooh... top tier Pi Phis. Of course, since this has already been pretty clearly outed in this thread, the Texas Pi Phis were one of the chapters that was mostly frequently mentioned.

Fast forward to me graduating and moving to Austin to go to grad school at Texas.

I have had Pi Phi benefit me in ways that are sometimes surprising. When I get around certain types of people and Greek Life comes up and they find out I am a Pi Phi, some kind of switch goes off in their head. Sometimes they get nicer to me. Sometimes they tell me chatty stories or start to think of me as their peer when maybe they did not before. A lot of times they say "You really need to meet and talk with my high school daughter!" In one extreme situation I was even given pictures of the daughter to evaluate.

I honestly believe that being a Pi Phi (specifically a Pi Phi, not having been president of a sorority and an award-winning member on a regional level in general) has helped me with job applications and that sort of thing. Because people see that I am a Pi Phi and suddenly assume that I am "one of them."

It is very interesting and I never would have guessed how widespread it is.

The funny thing is, that when I was active in my sorority I had a strong sense that Pi Phi was not nerdy everywhere or cool everywhere. I also knew, for example, that the "hot chapter" at my campus was only average at my best friend's college campus and bottom tier at some other schools I had friends at. But for these people in Texas who make assumptions about me because I am a Pi Phi, they don't seem to realize that the socioeconomic/class values they associate with Pi Phi may not apply to every Pi Phi chapter. I just don't understand how these people don't get it or don't "see through me."

I guess part of it is that my chapter, despite not being "top tier," was in many respects pretty preppy and southern-like. The new members we took were not like that, but the seniors we graduated were. So I guess people see me looking preppy or cute or put together or being socially competent or whatever and just assume I'm from an awesome chapter. eg I can pass, until they start asking me questions about politics or something. ROFL. And also a lot of Texas people go to my school so maybe they just assume W&L's tiers mirror Texas or UT tiers.

Anyway just my .02.

Sigh...:(

This is exactly what I meant when I wrote previously that it was a pleasant surprise to discover what an excellent reputation Tri Delta has nationally. I've had numerous times when people looked at me differently when they discovered I was a DDD, treated me with more respect, and assumed I must have been in a "top" house in college simply because that is their perception of Tri Delta. In my extreme example, one woman was completely flabbergasted and blurted out, "I didn't know you came from a wealthy family!" (I didn't.) But her perception of DDD based on her limited experience from her school was that Tri Delta = very big bucks.

I do think that the leadership opportunities were of great benefit to me from the non-Greek perspective, especially when you have the opportunity to explain what it involves. Very few college women get to take on the kinds of responsibilities a chapter president or treasurer does during their college years. (I was president, not treasurer. Just using it as an example.) In many of those cases, I don't think it mattered a bit to them which sorority I was in or where I went to school. They were interested in how the leadership experiences had shaped me and contributed to my growth as a person.

I read this and interpret it as somewhat contradictory. On the one hand, you are saying that people think DDD is strong based on their limited, regional experience. On the other, you say that DDD's strength is national. (As in stronger than other NPCs.)

Great observation, Kansas City. Very Panhellenic-based, and I very much agree with you. :)

OTW is EL CORRECTO. We have a winner!

I moved around the country with my husband while he climbed the old corporate ladder, and lived in the South, the Northeast, Midwest, Cali, and Texas in the 80's and 90's.

My group was perceived differently in each of the areas where I lived, and I learned an interesting lesson. It doesn't matter a whole heap after you leave your little bubble world on your own campus. It matters that you stay involved, give your time and talents towards service, and enjoy the opportunity to meet lots of new people regardless of where you live.

I agree 100% with this statement.

In my experience, no one cares what "tier" your sorority is/was after college.

I mean, maybe it's just my friends and I, but we don't sit up and re-live our collegiate "glory days" and have discussions about who was "the best." We have lives and would rather talk about the stuff that's going on in our lives right now, not from college 3 years ago. We may talk about some of the crazy times we had with our sisters, but that's it.

If you were to hang out with a group of mid-20's professionals (at least in the areas I'm familiar with) and start going on and on about how "top tier" your sorority was in college, they'd look at you like you had three heads (and were someone who is still living in college-land and needs to grow up).

Try going to an Alumnae Pahellenic meeting where I live. The women most obsessed with tiers are over age 50. It's pathetic.

You know, sometimes people just don't care in college. Yes, everyone (at least, who's Greek) knows who the top groups are or who, in their opinion, the top groups are.

But, sorority life is so much more than that. It's what you get to do, the whole experience that matters, right? And that's often what a lot of people want to know. Not what fraternities you mixed with but what your philanthropies did, how you bonded with your sisters, etc.

(FYI, my group just joined our college's Panhellenic recently, so we're not really in the tier system at all, or we automatically start off at the bottom. So, it's not like I'm saying this and in the top house on campus....)

I think you are in the south, Irish, and I am going to go out on a limb here, but I would credit this to the very traditional and stereotypical southern society "rules" that those women grew up with. Fifty years ago, who you are was determined by several things - race, religon, wealth, sorority affiliation, etc. All of those identifiers figured into someone's social standing. So it would stand to reason that it is still an issue for those women today.

The diversity that we see among young women today was not the norm for those women growing up - in fact, maybe that is one reason why southern recruitment and "what you pledge" is still such a big deal. I don't know, I just thought of that right this minute...

Just an observation.

I feel like people are trying to make out that I'm saying something that I'm not.

I was in a lower tier Tri Delta chapter in college at a Big Ten university where it was very evident and tiers mattered a lot.

I discovered that Tri Delta has an excellent reputation nationally, something that never crossed my mind when I joined a sorority as a person with a totally non-Greek background.

I never said anywhere that Tri Delta was better than any other NPC group. I'm just elaborating on my own personal experience as someone who joined a group she liked for friendship, finding a place on campus, and leadership opportunities. After suffering through some of the stigma of being in a lower tier group, it was an amazing experience to attend our Centennial Convention (as a collegian) and discover what a tremendous organization Tri Delta was nationally.

People keep pointing out that all the NPC groups are strong nationally and I haven't disputed that fact at all. But when I simply say how great it was for me to discover what a great national group I belonged to I'm somehow doing something wrong.

Please don't read more into my posts than is actually there.

TriDeltSallie -

Let me see if I can explain what I think you are saying,

You were in a lower tier group and were aware of that fact. Because you were young and relatively naiive, you thought DDD was a lower tier group on all other campuses as well as yours. You thought that Greek Life as you knew it was what everyone knew. You went to convention and realized that DDD is not lower tier everywhere, in fact it is quite strong. The national experience was eye opening to you.

What you have realized is that all groups are strong nationally and all across the country and in varying degrees. It is a statement that we all know to be true.

Welcome to my world. ;)

Yes! It was very eye opening and it showed me the power of belonging to a national organization and the lifelong opportunities available as a sorority woman that went way beyond my own chapter.

Great! The end.

TriDeltaSallie...I understood what you were trying to say. I think a lot of people find out how great of a national reputation their organization has-especially after being in the "low tier" chapter on campus-when they go to convention. Keep in mind, I'm from a Big Ten school, as well. I recognize that where you and I have gone (or still go-I graduated already) may not be the SEC but, it can be somewhat competitive too.

The fact that there are women who live and die...eat, sleep and breathe XYZ is, in a sense, endearing because it lets us know that our NPCs will be around for a long time. When I went to convention-I was floored by how many older women were still involved. It really made my day and made me even more proud to be a Phi Mu. So, good for you TriDeltaSallie, that you got a chance to experience convention.

At the risk of being flamed, I'll go out on a limb and say that I do think that there is one sorority that stands out to me as being the best nationally. I'm not talking about the quality of the sisterhood enjoyed by its members, but rather a combination of statistical success along with a consistently positive reputation. It's just my opinion, of course, but I know it is one shared by people pretty high up in my org. I'm just talking about the organization as a whole, not the individual members or chapters. Like every org it has some weak chapters and individual members, of course. That doesn't mean I would rather be a member of that org - just that I respect it as the best overall nationally.

I would tend to agree with you. There are a couple NPCs that I do admire for certain reasons (expansionary success, national programming). Not that I'd rather be in those sororities, but I do take notice of what they're doing and give credit where it's due. Not in an "oooh XYZ is top tier" way, but more in a (for example) "wow kudos to XYZ on their latest expansion, that's a tough campus" kind of way.

I would just say that of course we all may have subjective opinions of individual sororities - we run into problems when some try to take objective data, or even purely subjective, and try to make some overall statement about status with it.

Some NPCs are stronger in some areas than others; some are larger, some are better off financially, some are more active philanthropically, some are better at expansion, some have impressive programming, but ALL have a great deal to offer pnms. We need the differences among us to be able to reach the largest possible variety of members. Viva la difference!