Billy Graham hasn't had a congregation since the 40s. And can you point to just one example where he "strongly encouraged" anyone to "vote for the candidates that supported his personal issues"? Not where, for example, he spoke on the need to oppose communism, but where he actually said that those listening to him should vote for candidates who oppose communism?

Many of us took issue with that. We also took issue with you for the examples you gave, since some of them were off target.

(BTW, Billy Graham is registered as a Democrat. So if you're going to use him as an example, he supports PantherTeke's assertion, not yours.)

Would that it was as informed as it is interesting.

Well, yeah, but come on MC, let's not get carried away...

I agree with your last opinion about in passing and "off the record' having a pastor state who they are voting for and why. I dont agree with pastors preaching politics from the pulpit. My pastor is very careful to not do that as well (otherwise I'd switch churches). I like the separation of church and state. People should be free to make up their own minds on how to vote and not be told how to vote from anyone.

True, sensei. I mustn't be greedy. I must be satisfied with what we have and not wish for that which will never be.

You can be registered as Democratic, but still be conservative, and no one could say that Billy Graham was a liberal.

You think they were off target, I, and other true liberals, think they are spot on.

And neither did I. PantherTeke said the pastors guilty of espousing politics from the pulpit were mainly liberals and Democrats. You asked if he'd never heard of Billy Graham. I pointed out that BG is a Democrat, thus he would fit PantherTeke's description. What part of that was hard for you to understand?

Since I hate to see "true liberals" unnecessarily defamed, I fixed it for you.

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to cite just one example where Billy Graham "strongly encouraged" anyone to "vote for the candidates that supported his personal issues." Just one. Don't worry, though; I'm not holding my breath or anything.

Billy Graham is a conservative. PERIOD. I named both conservatives and Republicans to cover the spectrum that PANTHERTEKE implied refrained from being political. What part of that is hard for you to understand?

The reality is that conservative leaders, including the Religious Right (which I know Graham was not allied with) are the ones discounting reality. They think that the world can abide by some ancient moral code that has absolutely no basis on the current reality. I'm pretty well versed in reality, are you?

As I said, Billy Graham never outright endorsed a candidate or party, however, his actions and the devotion of his TV audience (and he did still have an audience, even without a current show he was still sermonizing) were enough. If you were a loyal Graham fan, which you seem to be, you would be influenced and strongly prefer Nixon over JFK, considering he was counseling the Republican throughout the campaign. You would consider that he spend the night at the White House the night before Desert Storm was launched as an approval of the War and Daddy Bush along with it. His actions spoke to those fans. There are two for you, before you turn blue.

Meow, MysticCat.

I'm quite well versed enough to tell that you aren't nearly as well-versed as you would like to believe, thanks.

LOL. See, here is the whole problem -- you assume way too much and then assume that your assumptions equal reality.

Yes, I am a Graham fan, for a variety of reasons. But I can be a fan of someone without agreeing with them on all issues, especially those issues I may view him as less qualified to speak about. Just because I happen to think a great deal of him and admire, I am not conservative (at least not across-the-board conservative), either politically or religiously.

So, despite the fact that I admire and appreciate the way he has counseled various presidents (and Lord knows, Nixon needed his counsel), I would not have voted for Nixon. And though I found the fact that he spent the night at the White House the night before Desert Storm to say a great deal about the seriousness with which "Daddy Bush" approached taking that action, I did not take it as an endorsement of the War itself, I did not support the War and I did not vote for Bush either time he ran.

Since you're "well versed" in reality here, perhaps you'll recognize that the things you mentioned were not necessarily as likely to be seen as "endorsements" by Graham's "fans" like me; perhaps they're more like to be denounced as endorsements by his detractors like you. It's clear you don't like him or his "moral code that has absolutely no basis on the current reality." It's also clear that your dislike prevents you from looking at things objectively.

It seems to be quite the opposite, your love of televangelists seem to override the reality that devoted fans really do look at the actions of a celebrity, especially one of Graham's following, as gospel.

There you go, assuming again. With the one exception of Billy Graham, I despise and am offended by just about every televangelist I can think of.

Unorthodox though it may seem, I try to be aware of and take my own biases into account -- question them, even -- when I think critically about any issue, including religion and/or politics, so I think I've got a pretty handle on what kind of influence (beside the opening-the-wallet influence) these "celebrity televangelists" have.

Meanwhile, I'm done. Sorry, but the entertainment value of arguing with you has jumped the shark. I'll just go back to laughing at you quietly or ignoring you. ;)

Let em fight!
Let em fight!

LOL. But it just doesn't feel sporting anymore. :D

Not that MC needs anyone to fight his battles for him, but I just wanted to point this sentence out - nice argumentative technique. Holy crap.

Classic "begging the question". At least I can use it as an example in class!

Yeah, but the claim about your loving televangelists was really funny. I'd almost like to see more of that.

(I don't assume that I know you, but I wouldn't have put my money on MysticCat as a big televangelist fan.)

My point was that while he was registered Democratic, no one could ever argue that Graham was a liberal.

Isn't MysticCat a girl?

MC = girl? :eek:

With a name like MysticCat it would have to be either
1. a girl
2. a level 99 paladin on wow

Good lord kstar and PhiGam, where the hell have you all been? And way to be completely ignorant about other fraternities, PG, look up Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia and maybe you'll learn a few things (like the significance of the Mystic Cat).

Mystic is just about the coolest cat on this whole board.

I'm glad that didn't come as a complete surprise to people who pay attention. :D
Assuming again, along with not paying attention. Game, set, match to MysticCat.
LOL. I've never played WOW. I've never even played D&D. And I'm definitely not a girl. But thanks for getting my day started off with a good laugh.

Aww, thanks pardner!

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:.../mystic/MC.gif

Oh, you know I've gotchyer back, 'Cat! :D:cool: