Fear is often legitimate, and I thus think it must play a significant role in many discussions of current political or legal issues.

I think people on here have displayed that this is a topic where many can and do discuss rationally and realistically, but perhaps you've reason to feel otherwise.

It usually is not.

Definitely.

In this thread, starting with nate's rant about criminals looting and smuggling drugs.

I think it often is. Fears often don't come true in such matters, but I don't think that makes them illegitimate. When it comes to government regulation, I think there are numerous outcomes which would warrant such apprehension.

Perhaps your named exception aside, I think the discourse has been pretty rational and well-mannered.

For what we're discussing, fears that have no or minimal foundation and have a low likelihood of coming to reality are illegitimate and irrational. :)


I don't care about the well-mannered part. Rational, perhaps, but that's because what can irrationally and/or emotionally be said about guns has been said in other threads. :)

Not to beat a dead horse, but could your provide an example?

From my perspective, when we're talking about fear, I'm talking about people who fear the government knocking on doors and taking away guns when people need them the most. That may seem irrational to some, but I suspect some citizens of NOLA feel differently.

Good example. :) When do you suppose that you will "need them the most?" That's where the issue of fear can irrationally fuel the discussion. And would the government ever really be knocking down doors or is that not literal?

I think you and I have discussed this before. Aren't you (or macallan?) the one who said you keep a gun under your pillow because you think it's a deterrent? You now know that pillow guns aren't deterrents because criminals don't know you have a pillow gun or the probability that anyone would have a pillow gun. But I'm all for your right to have a pillow gun as long as you are well-informed and realistic in what it is intended to accomplish and what it is most likely to accomplish. Most people aren't. :) Let's also pray that you never have to startedly fumble with your pillow to actually defend your home. :)

We have, and I've made statements about deterrence, but I don't keep a gun under my pillow. Must be Mac or a combination of statements made by us both.

I believe collective gun ownership in an area can be a deterrent, and there is some evidence to support that argument. Further, I can deter criminals by possessing a weapon (pulling my gun from under my pillow can certainly deter a criminal from committing a violent act).

I brought up the Katrina example because it was a realization of many people's fears. When authority comes to your door and by force, takes your weapons, that it rightfully frightening. To many people, the time when one will most need a weapon to defend themselves and their families is during periods of societal collapse. Arguably, that is what happened in New Orleans.

I think fear can certainly be irrational, but we have to be careful when dismissing those fears as illegitimate. Anti slippery-slope arguments can be just as dangerous as the slope itself, IMO.

Random thought about assault rifles etc:

Many of us consider placing limitations on assault weapons among the most reasonable of the restrictions that the government can place on gun ownership, and yet, if you try to read the 2nd amendment to be about militias, wouldn't those be the guns be the most essential in that regard?

When the framers were talking about militias and their one-shot-muskets to make sure the colonists could defend themselves against the crown or other enemies, I can't imagine they had AK-47s in mind when they wrote the amendment. Or fathom the existence of a gun like that.

Da Vinci envisioned the machine gun in the 14th century; the first documented rapid-fire gun was patented in 1718. I don’t see why the founding fathers couldn’t have imagined a light weight assault rifle.

That's simply not a viable argument.

The citizens must be armed to defend itself against the government. That means if a citizen has the means to do it, they should be able to purchase what ever gun the government owns.

Not to go all black helicopters, but that's the kind of thinking I was considering.

If the 2nd amendment is an individual concern, I'm more willing to accept some common sense limitations on individuals who are nuts, felons, etc. (Yay, Heller.)

But if it's a collective-militia based right, then how was the 1994 federal assault rifle ban constitutional?

I think for most people who go back and look at "here's why the framers did this," the 2nd is not just a reflection of concern about the British; it's a concern about any government the people find oppressive. And if the 2nd amendment is about taking martial action, how can the federal gov't, limit weapons at the state level?

Does anyone remember how this was resolved in debate?

When they envisioned free speech, the probably didn't envision internet pornography either. Constitutional interpretation should rarely be impacted by technological advance, and Scalia addresses this in the Heller opinion.

Regarding assault weapons, I again want to urge people to look into what you're supporting (if you support such things). These measures probably will not just limit "assault weapons" (which are fully automatic rifles like AR 15's and AK-47's), but will likely try to limit the semi-automatic versions of these rifles as well. The only difference between a semi-auto AR-15 and a hunting rifle are magazine capacity and the fact that the former looks "scarier." I also expect such legislation will try to limit magazine capacity in handguns as well (as seen already in states like CA).

Pshh, this is 2008, tyranny is a thing of the past.

Well, the 1994 ban expired, and I don't think there's been any successful reauthorization. I'm just wondering how it went down.

Dunno, perhaps you'd need to look at the floor debate. As of a week or two ago, another AWB had arisen, but gun control just isn't appealing subject for politicians right now. However, I expect that to change (at least an attempt, I mean) if the Democrats have the WH, and big gains in both houses.

Up until I heard on the news of this decision I didn't even know this was up for discussion.

I don't think citizens need to have weapons to defend themselves from the government.

Unless you are doing some crazy shizz, the American government is not going to wake up one day and storm your home and try to harm you or your family because they are bored.

People should have to right to have weapons to defend themselves from dumbasses who also have weapons and are trying to harm them (e.g. people breaking into homes for various reasons).

I could be wrong, but I think his point was about the founders' attitude about why the people needed the right. If you relatively recently had to band together to throw off the British and remain concerned about individual liberty and the role of limited federal government, you might feel different about protecting yourself from the government.

I tend to think only nuts really imagine having to defend themselves with weapons against the government today, but I think our right to have weapons for other reasons grew out of concern about limiting the powers of government by granting explicit rights to the people, even in cases where the reasons why they granted those rights militia's, fears about gov't power, don't seem to apply, etc. The right is still there.

ETA: If you look at some no knock raid stories it may give you something to consider in terms of government storming people's homes. Personally, I'm not going to try to shoot any police who try to enter my home; I'd go with a lawsuit later. But there are are lot of cases in the news in the last few years about agents of the government storming peoples homes for no good reason.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...5AC0A9659C8B63
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/10374909/detail.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant

The victims of Ruby Ridge and Waco would love to speak with you.

I've got to say, I completely agree with this SCOTUS decision. Although I usually tend to go pretty liberal, the DC gun restrictions were absurd and clearly unconstitutional. They were effectively banning guns without actually doing it - residents were not allowed to carry registered hand guns, and guns in the home must be unloaded, disassembled and have a trigger lock...which basically makes them 100% useless.

In this day and age of unrestrained lawmaking and the total disassemble of our Constitution, I find it increasingly important to make sure that each article of our Constitution and Bylaws are followed...or we risk losing everything.

Good job, SCOTUS. Is the Patriot Act next?

If you start getting into this type of argument, as to the framers not having modern advances in mind when writing the Constitution and amendments, you're getting into a whole mess of issues. You could make arguments on how to limit free speech over the internet and a few other things.

I understand what you're saying, I just don't think you want to start going down that road.

Quick story to bolster this idea. Back when I was in high school, I went to the rodeo with this guy, first date;) (and last)!! As he was walking me up to the door, a car load of "banditos" pulled up (they had followed us), jumped out and started robbing us. First thing, they knocked my date out in the front yard with the butt of the gun. They then held the gun to my head and made me open the door and start walking in. I was crying my eyes out, so he told me to shut up or he would blow my brains out. My dad, who was in bed (downstairs bedroom) heard something and started calling out, "..., is that you?" He called a few times, but I obviously didn't answer. The robber and I were slowly and silently walking towards my parents' room. Next thing, we heard a really audible and distinctive cocking of a shotgun - my dad's, that he kept under the bed. When the robbers heard it, all but the one with me took off. When the one with me saw that his buddies left, he took off too.

I know that if my dad had not had that gun, we could have all been killed. Turns out, the guys had raped a woman earlier that night, that could have been my fate as well.

I don't think I'll need my gun to protect myself from the government, but I darn well think that I might need it to protect myself from a home invader or robber, and I damn well know how to use it...