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I honestly take offense to the idea that a service or professional or whatever fraternity is on anything resembling the same plane as social fraternities.
I'll tone it down, but just take from my post that I think calling a service/professional group a fraternity is laughable. I have friends who have joined both service/professional groups and social fraternities that would agree whole heartedly as well. |
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I'm not sure why you guys are riding the social fraternity horse so hard. |
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What they offer is completely different and the people they draw will generally not be interchangable with each other. In my view to suggest that they are, would be comparable (on a much lower level obviously) to someone saying "I'd like to one day work for the NAACP" and getting the response of "Well if that doesn't work out for you, you should consider getting involved with the Klan." Yeah the two groups are comparable, but only in as much as they're both clubs and they both have a purpose that they're united around. (And the NAACP/Klan thing is purposely exaggerated for the point of being funny while still kind of sort of making a point, thought I should clarify that since the sense of humor in here is kind of lacking). |
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Hey, I'd like to be a baseball player. I really love the sport of baseball. I think it would be really cool to play on the college team, but I don't know that I can devote myself to it completely and I don't know if the skills that I'm used to using line up with what the kids are doing these days. And someone saying, well why don't you work with our community program for youth baseball. You can either volunteer and do good in the community working with kids' teams and doing service or you can work in our office with our corporate sponsors making connections that you can use in your career later. Nobody really thinks it's a one to one substitution, just that there's value in the second options too. |
Except I don't see what the shared thing here is other than the word fraternity.
I really like living with 50 of my closest friends, parties and girls. And then someone else saying I'm not quite cool enough to party and hang around girls, but I can help give people in college directions to class because they spent their orientation partying and hanging out with girls and lost their campus map? (again, a joke, but also a serious question. what does a service fraternity have in common with my house, because I'm not coming up with a lot?) |
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But in actuality, depending on the particular group, a social fraternity may just be a somewhat elitist club that exists for the purpose of providing a place to drink and pick up girls while you form connections that you hope will carry through the rest of your personal and professional life. And service and professional organization have service and profession goals. Here's the thing, you'd really have to go back to your founding at often single-sex institutions to figure out what your group is supposed to be about and then you'd have to contrast that with what your chapter actually does AND THEN, you'd have to figure out what the social and profession organizations at your campus actually do to have your answer. It seems like a lot of unnecessary effort. Instead just ask yourself what Wooderson would do. |
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Wow ... how on earth did this innocent thread turn into this mess?? (And haven't we had this mess on here before --- many, many times???)
The culture of service, business, band, etc. fraternity and sororities is different on every campus, just like with other groups. How you may perceive these groups to be because of your college experience may not be true nationally. It may not even be true on your campus. NO ONE has any right to judge any other organization (whether NPHC, NPC, IFC, or otherwise) on their pledging process, their ritual, etc., because the fact is, YOU DON'T KNOW. You don't know, and you are never going to know, so you need to stay out of it and stop making claims that are none of your dang business. :mad: Seriously. |
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You seem so earnest which just seems misplaced here. Once a fratty has thrown out the NAACP in a thread that's a sign it shouldn't be taken seriously enough even for a mad smilie. |
Just my two cents but:
(This portion isn't meant to inflame or anger anyone, it's just what I have been exposed to/heard about/know of the APO at my school. Again, organizations differ by school, so take this as what they are considered at my school.) First and foremost, at my school, APO is considered a club (by the school and by the students), just like a professional GLO. They don't sit on any sort of fraternity or sorority board, thusly I do not consider them a fraternity. Just because you call yourself a fraternity does not automatically make it so. Also, APO at my university has more drama, bullshit, and members that dislike each other than any social fraternity/sorority (There was a case of several people deactivating because one of their friends didn't get elected president, along with cases of members openly disliking other ones and bashing them. I've also had a friend who kicked her own APO members out of a party she was having because they were talking shit). Take that as you will. My friends in APO feel much less a sense of belonging to a whole than I do with my social fraternity, I've been repeatedly told by so many people that they do it for their resume (and that's how they recruit on campus, just as a resume builder). And again, at my school as long as you do your APO services hours you get in. But back to the original poster's question! I don't know the fraternities where you are going, but it really depends. Speaking honestly, I don't know if you would have a lot in common with your undergrad pledge brothers and other potential brothers. That's the key thing I look for when considering people at rush events, whether or not they get along and whether they would fit. Also, would you be willing to go to all the events that are undoubtedly required of you? Because you're over 30, I don't know if going to sorority mixers would even interest you. Would you be willing to do the undoubted bitch work of cleaning up after a party or mixer? If you were rushing at my school, I would have to see how you bonded with everyone, especially the newest members just because if you don't really bond or have things in common with them, you probably won't spend time with your pledge class. Honestly, I, personally, don't think I would pledge at your age, just because of the sheer amount of bitch work and 'paying your dues' you have to do as a pledge. |
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IMO, as a member, who has had a 30 and 50 something year old brothers, if they let you in, they should have the respect to treat you as a brother, if not at least a man, In Sigma Phi Epsilon, most chapters employ a balanced man stance which means you are a brother with full rights and privileges when you join, http://www.uwsigep.org/ is their website, check em out, if you want i can even get you in contact with their VP of recruitment so that they can answer any questions you have, also many chapters have a balanced man scholarship to help cover books, or even dues if you join. so i would say, enjoy your experience and being Greek is only going to make it better.
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Thanks everyone for the interesting comments and observations. No I hadn't known prior to starting this thread that there were different types of GLS's, so if anything I'm a little better educated than I was yesterday.
I am really a bit more interested in the social comeraderie and events of a social organization. In addition to the lifetime networking I see this point in my life as my last real opportunity to play big and have fun. I'm just lucky enough to have a wife that understands and appreciates this opportunity and supports me in it (I know a LOT would be highly opposed to the idea). Also I'll be frank, once I left the service I realized very quickly how much of a void was left when I no longer had fellows that I could identify so closely with as I did my squad, platoon and company mates. I may be assuming that Greek societies are the same level of do-or-die friendship, but it seems to me the closest thing to what I have grown to know. I'll take the advice of those that have suggested taking a look never hurts. Like I said earlier, if there is an obvious fit with a group that's great, but if not that's fine too. I'll integrate into something, be it a GLS, a club sport or whatnot, and enjoy my time. :) Again thanks to everyone on both sides of this discussion for your interesting comments. Quote:
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Kato,
I appreciate your situation and wish you well. I admire your service to our country (THANK YOU!) and am glad that you have come back with such a positive attitude. As a wife and mother, I have to say that I would have a problem with my husband pledging a fraternity. The time commitment is immense if you truly are planning on doing all that the other pledges are doing. Add to that the commitment you are making to do well in school, and I just don't see how a person could possibly give all that is needed to meet each of the commitment's needs - your marriage being foremost. Your wife must be a saint, either that, or she doesn't know quite what your looking at getting into. JMO - I truly do wish you luck:) |
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So on the one hand, I wish you well and think you would get some great things out of joining a fraternity to enhance your college experience, but as a married woman, I'd caution you to be very VERY sensitive to your wife and if concerns or insecurities pop up for her when you get into it. |
Kato,
Since we are already "Brothers of the Sword" (I am a reservist with four years AD and one tour in-country as a CAV Troop CO) I know that your experiences have made you a first class prospective. You understand brotherhood as few others can. As a combat veteran you have already learned the important bits. You apparently have a great deal to offer to any Fraternity. I urge you to go for it. If you find a house that you feel at home with and if they want you this would be a mutually beneficial experience. You will need to include your wife as much as possible so that she can share your enthusiasm and gain an understanding of the whole concept. As she is supportive she will also get a lot out of your experience. Check out all the chapters at your school and see which ones seem to be a good fit. Rush can be a blast and pledgeship is something you have already demonstrated you can handle. It is demanding but it can be fun. Nothing to lose and maybe a lot to gain. Good luck. dekeguy CPT, USAR |
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Kato, as others have said- coming later than usual to fraternity life is far more acceptable for servicemen than it would be for most people. So from that standpoint while you might encounter roadblocks at certain chapters, you should still have choices. The question I think for you is how this would fit into your overall life plan. A chapter does not have to engage in illegal hazing activities to make pledgeship a very demanding time committment. Chapters vary (and I am making the logical assumption you are talking about a social fraternity- forget the nonsense from 3 pages back in this thread), but you should be prepared to spend at least one evening away from home every week- and many weeks that would be 2-3 evenings. You would likely get some accomodation from the chapter for your unique situation seeing as how you are married, but even if that is allowed- the less time you spend with your fellow pledges, the less of a real connection you will have with your pledge brothers and with the fraternity itself. So often on this forum, and elsewhere, the ultimate goal being discussed is getting a bid. That is an important step, but it is only the beginning. All chapters have people who pledged and got initiated, but never really became a part of their chapter or had a meaningful experience. Most often that is because someone was marginal to begin with or somehow changed during pledgeship and ended up just not fitting in. But in your case I think there is an extra risk of that since your life experience has already moved beyond what a social fraternity provides for many people. Now you might well dive in and have a blast- but I just say these things to get you to really consider and question what role you think you would have in a fraternity over the next few years while you are in school, and to encourage you to think about how the benefits of that might be offset by strains in other areas of your life. Consider, for a start, how awkward it might be for your wife to join you at parties. Note I say "might"- you two may have a blast on the Greek social scene. But think about it all the same. The whole idea of being in a fraternity is that is a central part of your social life. Are you prepared for that? If not, is the money and time you invest worth getting the lesser return compared to most other guys in fraternities? Again, it may well be worth it- but just give it thought. When I started my MBA program, the Dean gave a speech to the entering class addressing the life issues many students would face since virtually all of them had left school, gone to work and were now coming back for their MBA in their mid to late 20s- or later. And so of course many of them were married. I was one of the few people in that room who came right through from undergrad. For most, entering the MBA program was a huge change in their life pattern and in their finances. The Dean made a point of telling students to think about this because it was his experience that in the past students had experienced a lot of strain with their spouses and families over going back to school- sometimes ending in divorce. This change you are making in your life has the potential to test you in many ways, and I just you urge to think carefully about whether adding a fraternity to the mix would be worth what it might cost. It could very well work out great, but it is worth pondering carefully in terms of how your life situation is different from that of the typical undergraduate going through rush. PS- If you decide this is the right thing for you, I wish you well. How you present yourself on this forum suggests you have noble motives and would make a great addition to a good chapter somewhere. |
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Military herritage - no hazing...
Kato,
Time for me to finally jump in... I'd strongly encourage you to look into the Sigma Nu chapter at UW. Sigma Nu was founded at Virginia Military Institute as a protest movement to hazing in 1866 just after the Civil War by three combat veterans. Like you, they were non-traditional students seeking a degree - in their case, engineering, so they could help rebuild the South which had been devastated by the war. As combat veterans, they had little interest in hazing which they considered kid stuff. They started what was known as "The Legion of Honor". This protest movement to hazing became so popular at VMI that they put Greek letters to their brotherhood and called is Sigma Nu. Sigma Nu is one of the largest, oldest and most prolific fraternities in existence. They have an impressive list of famous alumni. With over 180 active chapters and over 175,000 living alumni, it is a powerful organization. One of the most respected attributes of Sigma Nu is their LEAD program (Leadership, Ethics, Achievement, Development). Sigma Nu is the only fraternity that offers a 4-year ethical leadership development curriculum to its members. LEAD sessions are mostly led by alumni or university administrators. Sessions cover basic leadership topics in phase I and progress into more substantial topics (effective change, controversy with civility, group process & decision-making, organizational development, servant leadership and more...) Check out the LEAD page on our national website http://www.sigmanu.org/programs/lead/index.php I think you would be a great LEAD Chairman at a Sigma Nu chapter. I am a 39-year old alumnus who is on the Alumni Advisory Board of my chapter. I am the alumni LEAD Chairman and work directly with the chapter LEAD chair coordinating all of the LEAD sessions. Mostly, I bird-dog quality speakers from within our alumni group or influential university administrators. We had a county judge alumnus of ours facilitate the Ethics session - that was a great fit. This would be a great way for you to tap into the alumni network of the local chapter, which could serve you well in the marketplace one day. Sigma Nu at UW has been there since 1895 and has a rich tradition. They have a beautiful chapter house. I cannot speak for the quality of the men, however, since I've never met them. Bottom line... Military herritage, no hazing, LEAD program, highly-recognizable & respected national organization. Go Snakes! |
Thank you for your service to our country. I'm sorry it didn't allow for you to have a traditional college experience.
But I have to say, that from a sorority girl's perspective, the only thing that comes to my mind when I think about a guy who is 34 hanging out with a pledge class of guys half his age is this: http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/i...6__dazed_l.jpg |
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There is definately a line at which I'd have to agree "too much time would be too much time". What that is precisely, I am not sure. It would probably have to mean that a Greek experience provided less time for me to spend with my family than I had in the Army. My wife and I are used to me leaving for work at 5:30 AM and returning at 6-7 PM 5 days a week. We're used to me having to go "into the field" for training on a Thursday afternoon and returning at midnight that Sunday. Leaving for a month at a time to training center around the country. Etc etc. I'm not overly concerned about the time committment. Staying over for a night a week or something similar would be par for the course in our normal experience. I completely understand the rationality in the comments about time investments, however, and absolutely for someone used to normal routines and with spouses that have more conventional expectations on what is "normal", it would probably be too much. Quote:
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Besides, if some sorority girl takes the time to label me, she's obviously paying a little too much attention to a married man. And probably got shot down. :D |
To prevent any misunderstandings with local sororities, I will be fully prepared to come to school every day with a special flag. This flag would hopefully be disarming and reassuring to everyone that sees it.
http://www.mechgaming.com/images/dazed.jpg Nobody feels the least bit put off right? See how well it works???!!! :D Quote:
Will some people be unwilling to break out of their high school +/- 4 year "peer group" world view? Sure. And that's fine, I'm not out to force myself on any group. I wouldn't get anything out of associating with them anyway, and they would likely get nothing out of associating with me. But obviously from some of the responses in this thread there are people that "get" that brotherhood is commonality, not age. And I'll go out on a limb and say that given my background I "get" brotherhood. So, there it is. Long and short. :) |
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This thread has brought some family and historical perspective to mind for me. My father pledged Kappa Sigma as a married man. He was home from WWII, newly-married to my mother and newly-returned to college. (He had left The Citadel prior to graduation in order to enlist.) Of course, times were different then -- based on what he and my mother told me, I would hazard a guess that many if not most of his brothers were also vets who had gone back to school after the war, so there was a different dynamic. But I know he was glad to have been able to experience that side of college life, and I know my mother (who had gone to a college without Greek life) was glad for him and supportive. As was common at the time, he gave her his badge, which she still has. Good luck to you! It sounds like you've got a good perspective going into things and know what questions to ask and what to be careful about. |
Here's a question - are there IFC fraternities at UW that aren't quite as "social"? I mean, there are groups who have 3 intramural teams, 3 mixers every week, super participate in everything - then there are groups who aren't so much. Maybe you just need to find a less "gung ho" fraternity.
I mean, you don't want to join a group of losers, but at your age, I'm not sure that winning the intergreek basketball championship is that big of a deal. |
Kato,
That picture with the flag just totally won me over!!! You seem like a great guy with a great attitude, and as a mom of a fraternity member, I think you would be a great role model for the group. I hope that you can find a house that will overlook the "married, older guy" label and instead see the "head on straight, mature outlook and perspective guy" label. You can just be the token - Old Guy:p (just kidding!) Good luck! |
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Good luck to you! |
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