The children with Asperger's in our elementary school each had a Title 1 aide who worked with the child one on one. These children also ate in the classroom because the cafeteria was overwhelming to them and they each got to choose one classmate to eat with each day. The school did a good job of educating the kids in the classroom why "Nick" and "Andi" got this special treatment. In fact, "Nick" is in 8th grade now and still has his aide with him. I don't know where he eats in middle school. I haven't heard the kids talk about Andi so I think she may have moved or something.

See, that's great -- especially if it helped those kids learn and integrate and helped their classmates understand and accept them. But still the one size doesn't fit all. My son is always very resistant to anything that he thinks draws attention to him or singles him out as "special." I'm only exaggerating a little when I say he'd rather have all his teeth pulled out than have it explained to his classmates why special accomodations are being made for him.

We've been extremely fortunate in having him assigned to teachers who have some understanding of Apergers and a willingness to understand him. The result has been teachers who know how to give him the support he needs and how to challenge him appropriately without making a noticeable deal out of it.

Are we certain that the teacher ever had any indication that the child had the "autism-spectrum disorder" he was (later) diagnosed with?

If she did not, and if the problems were repeated (and without any accompanying diagnoses to help explain the behavioral issues), I can see where the teacher would resign to a more direct, hands-on approach (although I do agree, the apparent utility of her approach seems hilariously low).

I feel bad for the teacher to an extent, because it appears she will be tried in the Court of Public Opinion under the guise of a post-hoc analysis (and diagnosis) that she may not have understood or even had any awareness of.

I understand this, but does it really matter? The kid was what, 5?

I haven't seen anything that says one way or the other. However, if I recall, one of the articles linked said that it was the principal who suggested that the kid be evaluated for Aspergers. I would find it strange that the principal would make such a suggestion without talking about it with the teacher.

Of course, strange happens.

But despite my posts and "closeness" to this as the father of a kid with Aspergers, I think my reaction would have been the same if the kid didn't have it. I can't imagine doing this with any kindergarten class, for any reason. The Aspergers aspect just provides an additional facet for me.

During college, and for a brief time afterward, I was a preschool teacher, in a class of about 15-20 children. The class included many students who did not speak English as a first language, and a handful who had various developmental delays. It involved a curriculum and many of the classroom management skills one would need for kindergarten.

With that background in mind, I really can't understand why she would have the kid up at the front of the room like that, and "poll" the class in the manner that she did. I have been in situations where you had one child tell the other child how his/her contact made them feel ("You made me feel sad," etc.), but never where you were pitting the entire class against one child.

I can't imagine a situation where you would subject a child that young (even putting aside any other circumstances), to being called out by all of their classmates at once.

Teaching is a stressful job, no doubt, and there can be challenges in dealing with behavior. However, the method with which she dealt with the situation seems extreme.

ETA: I'm sure that all the facts haven't come out yet, so who knows if the truth lies somewhere between the child's story and the teacher's.

Kindergarten teacher here. There's nothing wrong with the other kids being involved in the discipline, even occasionally in front of the class. But it has to be done in a loving, positive way (which five-year-olds are certainly capable of). i.e. "It makes us sad that our friend Alex is not following the rules of our classroom. We can't wait for him to fix it [the behavior] so he can come back, because we like him and we miss him when he's not here." I also don't understand this vote happening after the child had already been returned by what I'm assuming was an administrator. However, like Sensuret I am skeptical about the accuracy of this story.

I think it matters as to the teacher's intent, in my mind.

I cannot envision a rational, intelligent, well-adjusted teacher ever subjecting a child with any sort of high-functioning autism to this sort of "rule-by-peer" or whatever. I can't really understand this at all.

I can see a well-intentioned but misguided teacher attempting to include the class, to try to "soften" the blow and create a relationship between actions and effects in the child's mind through his peers and (presumably) friends if the child were considered an otherwise normal five year old who acted out. In fact, I think it's actually a relatively accepted practice (the "I statement" method) - and while it looks like she implemented it poorly, I can at least understand where she's coming from.

One is more of a basic or (possibly) well-intended error, while the other is a borderline abomination.

Then again, since what she did was pretty much incorrect either way, you could certainly argue it doesn't matter in the slightest, and I wouldn't argue.

I would think you'd have to be very careful about how it was presented, and you couldn't do it with every class. Odds are you would have one student who would take their constructive criticism too far, or wouldn't understand the aim of the exercise.

Your example would work well, but I wonder how many classrooms would be able to do it successfully.

I suppose it is dependent on a strong culture. In my school, and my class in particular, there is a high number of kids with mental and behavior issues and we modeled this language a lot early on. The kids caught right on and within a couple weeks it went from "Hey, everybody shut up!" to "Class family, please make a better choice." I've never seen a child denigrate another in this process.

Especially with a kid on the autism spectrum.

I spoke with a school social worker (who also has experience with children with developmental disabilities) about it. First words out of his mouth were she should be fired.

My Mom-a teacher who is very active as an educator-was in such shock she didn't know what to say.

My feeling is the teacher is watching too much reality TV. The kid is 5. An adult would take it hard...they even have management training in the adult world that addresses the issue of discipline with large audiences.

Just to reiterate, in all my posts on this topic I have stated that I did not think that the teacher handled this situation in the best manner. The vein of my last couple posts have been towards the people that have stated, "She's a teacher and should have more patience, or just taken them out to recess."

I agree with laylo that you can do this in a constructive manner. I don't think that occurred in this situation. How effective that would have been with a kid with Autism, I don't know. I just would like to see more about this student's documented behavior and the results of his evaluation.

Kitso
KS 361

Think about this: You're five. You think everyone should be your friend. Stupid is a bad word. You cry when someone knocks over your sandcastle. You cry when your friends play tag without you.

And then a teacher (who is supposed to be an adult), allows people who you trust to tell you all the things they don't like about you (in front of everyone else, no less) and then vote you out of the class? It doesn't matter how long it was for... I honestly hope that teacher loses her job. And that all teachers who find themselves with a student like this do a little bit of research about how to handle students who act out...

This reminds me of the cheesy email story that goes around about a teacher who had all of her students write down what they liked about each student on a piece of paper and then presented each student with the list. In the story, one of the students dies years later and at the funeral, this teacher finds out that he had that list in his wallet with him at all times. Several other students bring out their lists and say they too carry it with them. Whether the email is true or not, I don't know, but I think it brings up the basic point. We care about what others think of us and what they say about us sticks with us for a lifetime. I think it's even more true for the negative things people say about us. I'm sure we each remember the kid that picked on us, whether it was to make fun of something ridiculous, like our name, or who called us a name, or who told us, on weigh in day, to take the water balloons out of our bra so we'd weigh less (thanks Roger.. I wore huge baggy shirts for YEARS because of you).. and it stuck with us for a long time. This is so harmful to a child's sense of self and there were so many better ways it could have been handled. If the teacher was mad that the administrator brought the child back too quickly, she should have talked with that administrator privately, not had each child in the classroom tell the kid how bad he is and then vote him out of the class. If you want to teach the kids how to give feedback to each other, you could do it on an individual basis so that if the child did something that was hurtful, the other child could say "When you do A, it makes me feel B" That's very different than having the child stand up in front of the room for a public, humiliating slam fest against him.

I can't get the link to the teacher's side of the story to load, but I just have a hard time imagining that the actual incident went down exactly as reported at first.

I also know that I've been frustrated with local newspaper coverage where I am when there's some kind of incident with schools and a kid. The kid and the kid's parents can tell the media whatever they want to. The people who work for the school are almost always bound by rules of confidentially, so what's reported is almost always very one sided. Note that in this case all that was released [ETA: as near as I can tell anyway], and likely could be released, was a police report that's probably available by an open records request.

I also want to say that I think it's cute that so many people seem to think that if the administrators returned him to class that obviously his behavior had been dealt with. That idea is one of the funniest things I've read on GreekChat ever, funnier than the LOL Cats even.

Please note that I don't actually think what the teacher did was the right way to handle it. I just would reserve judgment of exactly how bad it was and what should happen to her until I knew more of the facts.

And the saga continues...this time in Oregon!

VIDEO: Teacher duct tapes boy to his chair

AHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ok, so its not really that funny, but it reminds me of my High school. My English teacher (junior year) used to tape us to the desk if he saw us asleep on the desk (you know where you have your head on teh desk and everything). So when the person woke up, they weren't able to lift themselves up! Oh man, it was always hilarious to see someone being taped the desk, we even have several pictures of it in our senior yearbook!! lol

That is hilarious!

I don't mean to call you out, but seriously your statements just irked me. If you walked into the teaching profession "assuming" that every child would be "normal", you might want to rethink the teaching profession as a whole. Whether you have a kid with an IEP or not, YOU WILL have a special needs child (of some kind) in your classroom.

Using the excuse "if I wanted to teach it I would have gotten the endorsement", its just that, an excuse. IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act) and FAPE (free and appropriate education) guarantee these children the right to an education in their lease restrictive environment

I apologize for sounding completely bitchy and pissed, but it irks me to no end with teachers who have absolutely no patience for special needs students and would rather they "not be in their classroom".

And obviously you aren't seeing the positive a special needs child can be in your classroom. I taught 3rd grade last year (07-08) and I started out the year with 5 sped kiddos (3 SLD/1 Asbergers/ADHD and 1 Bipolar). First off, I have a very strict discipline regiman (I start out incredibly tough and lighten up throughout the course of the year). My students know that I am boss. I placed a sped kiddo in each group, so that my students understood that they would have to work with kids that were a bit slower than them. I ended the school year with only 2 sped kiddos (due to 3 kids leaving the district) and my class were amazing with them. They were willing to help them (without being asked by me), they would volunteer when asked. They learned patience. There are positives from having sped students in your room, but first off you have to stop dwelling on the negatives and look at the positives that that child can bring to your class..

BTW my comments are coming from a person who has taught 2 years in a special education self-contained setting and two years regular education (with sped students in my rooms). I am not only certified in Elementary Education but also Special Education Cross-Categorical.

Feel free to disagree with my comments. Feel free to argue with me :D. Thats fine :D

I've taught.....and I can honestly sympathize and agree with Kitso while still respecting ASUADPi's stance.

Long story short..... the PRIM don't always work. (Pre Referral Intervention Manual)

And as someone who hopes to be a parent one day, I shudder when I think about my child being expected to help other students. There's a difference between collaborative learning and burdening a special needs child's classmates.

Honestly, when you have kids, don't send them to public schools then. They will be expected to work together (whether it is with a special needs child or a student they don't particularly like). I am teaching these children that people are different, that it is a fact of life and that they have to work together. There is a big difference between having the kids rotate who works with the special needs student and having one person always work with that child.

I can say that the only time I have had to seperate a sped child away from another student it had nothing to do with his disability or his abilities, it was because their personalities didn't mesh and the sped child was violent (due to his dislike) to the other child (when I say violent I mean he would deliberately hit this child). I obviously couldn't have that happening in the room, so they were completely seperated in the room and in line. Once they were seperated from each other, my class ran fine and was smooth.

I know for myself and in my classroom, the students rotated on who they worked with. I was constantly changing groups. I didn't want them to become complacent in one group and think they didn't have to do anything. Plus, I would mix up the ability levels (like I wouldn't put all the sped kiddos in one group and all my gifted in another). Yes, some children would work with my sped kiddos a bit more, but I would ask them "hey do you mind working with this child" and they would say yes. Mainly because these two little girls really liked to be the "center of attention", which working with one of the sped kiddos and having to explain the assignment in child like terms and kind of being the "boss" something that gave them an ego boost. (They probably didn't think I knew this but I did).

Again, I have been a teacher.

Working together is not the same as helping. Your first post said helping, which is what I was referring to.

And no, my children will not attend public schools if I can help it.

Here's to you then, super teacher. http://www.allsportsnetwork.net/comm...s/thumbsup.gif

Seriously though, that's awesome that you have a SPED cert, spent 2 years as a resource teacher and then are going to fly in here and be judgemental on a guy like me. As a first year teacher, I get handed the kids mods and had our SPED coordinator essentially tell me, "Good Luck".

To be honest, I've tried the group thing, I put him into a lot of different groups, rotated them throughout the fall semester. The common theme? He was a drain on each group of kids I put him with (He didn't bounce from group to group, I reassigned them each time). His group members had to go above and beyond the amount of work the rest of the students did, to make up for his part. That's not fair to them.

And do I expect all my kids to be normal? No I don't. I understand some kids will be slower than others, or have trouble with certain assignments. Hell, I teach at a school that's 60% Hispanic and has numerous LEP/ESL kids, and I seem to do fine by them.

Kitso
KS 361

1) lol

2) That's really what I was trying to get at.

But you didn't name any positives.

My mother is a spec. ed. instructor and is working on her EdD in spec. ed. (already having her MEd in spec. ed, and her BA in English Ed.) and she truly believes that mainstreaming isn't always the best. If the student causes problems for the other students, he does not need to be in that class.

And it sounds like you pawn off your responsibilities on your students. They shouldn't be teaching your spec. ed. students, you should. The spec. ed. students are not the responsibility of your "normal" students.

As long as a teacher didn't put tape on my child's skin, I don't believe I'd have problem with this happening. My parents used to tie my brother to his chair when we'd eat because he was so hyper he couldn't sit still (and this was before the mass influx of prescription medications for little ones).

Interesting reading the last few posts. As I've said, my kid is the Asperger's/ADHD kid, and I'm amazed (and pleased) at how often his teacher picks asks him to work with and help other students. He's becaome the acknowledged computer expert in the class, and he seems more than willing to help other kids with computer issues. Helps the other kids learn about computers and helps him learn to work with others and interact with others in a setting that's comfortable to him.

As his parent, though, I can readily say that I wouldn't be real happy about it if I thought other kids were having to go above and beyond to make up for him. That's not fair to anyone involved.

Granted, my son presents a relatively "mild case." I think most people interacting with him wouldn't immediately peg him as special needs -- at most they might note that he's a little "odd" and hard to figure out. So for him, mainstreaming works well, while being seperated from the "normal" kids would be a disaster. Like I said, I think the question of what classroom setting is best for a kid on the spectrum has to be decided on a case-by-case basis -- there is no one right answer.

And I know what some of you mean about public schools. Rashid, I wouldn't send kids to DC public schools either if I could help it. But I have to say, our experience with public schools and an Asperger's kid has been fantastic.

This is fine and well, but I have to echo Kitso and Rashid here - there is a fine line between allowing children to interact and "help" each other, and putting the teaching onus on the "smart kids" to pull up the kids who aren't gifted or good in that area. Granted, some kids likely learn best through teaching it to others, but this is far from universal, and it doesn't seem like this puts the gifted kids in the best position to excel.

This is, coincidentally, why I strongly support partial separation programs for both gifted students and special needs students. Interaction is a necessary and important part of socialization and "growing up" - however, targeted and focused programs can have immense utility for these kids.

Thank you for understanding my context! :p

I benefited from partial separation as a gifted student in 5th and 6th grades. (Side note: the librarian was also the "gifted" student teacher and is the granddaughter of an Alpha founder!)

I suffered from full separation in 2nd grade. Hated every minute of it. All the "smart" kids were in one class and the pressure was intense.

I'm the gen ed teacher for an ASD inclusion class. 2 kids on the spectrum and 13 general ed 1st grade Bronx kids, 2 have IEPs for their own learning delays. Peachy fun!

From just the basic training I got last summer so I could teach in this program I know not to do what this teacher did, which leads me to believe she needs a little education herself. BUT I've been I think at a point where she may have been that day - just at your wits end and not sure what to do next. Certainly that doesn't make her behavior ok, but I do have some sympathy for her as a fellow educator.

You're also way more active and accepting of your son's needs than a LOT of parents are. Aren't most kids on the spectrum diagnosed before the kid even starts grade school, when something doesn't seem right?

We know a kid who's obviously on the spectrum--but to his family, "there's nothing wrong" with him at all. As a result, he's not getting the help he deserves, he doesn't speak, he just grunts monosyllabically. I feel like many urban public school systems are filled with kids like this...which could be the case with this kid. Doesn't make what the teacher did right, though.

Someone asked the same thing a number of pages ago, so I'll just cut and paste what I said there:

So you have basically 3 groups -- the parents who have their kids evaluated and diagnosed early on, the parents who refuse to see that something is wrong, and the parents who know something is wrong and who are dealing with it, but who don't get to an ASD diagnosis at first. We're the third group, and I've known parents in the first two groups. It's hard when you can see what's going on with a child but the parents can't/won't.

Going back to the original concept - I don't care if it is a child of 5 or a high school senior of 18, an adult going through recruitment or a worker at his/her workplace - NO ONE would want to be put at the front of their class/group, discussed then voted on. Except maybe "Survivor" - but let's leave reality tv out of this.

Heck, can you imagine if we put pnms in the front of the group and then had everyone discuss them and vote then and there for membership selection? :eek: What if they did it in your workplace?

It is a stupid, cruel idea.