damn some one give CB a national award or a trophy for this awesome ass post! couldnt have said it better **thumbs up**

The fraternities have decided to turn from what they used to be - a very effective (if somewhat elitist) training ground for future leaders - in an effort to be more politically correct. You gain a lot more in terms of character from a hard pledgeship, nationals looks down on it.

Fraternities are developing more leadership programs than ever before. In fact, many of those programs are designed to educate their members on how to facilitate leadership training and develop leadership attributes without putting them through "a hard pledgeship". You have a desire to develop leaders - so does Headquarters. Unfortunately, your idea of character development is humiliating people by hazing them. Preventing the humiliation of people is not being politically corrent - it's called treating people with dignity. Get a clue.


You watch out for your house and keep brothers out of trouble by having a pledge driving program, nationals says it's hazing.

The primary problem isn't that pledges are driving your drunk, underaged brothers around. The problem begins with the drunk underaged brothers. The fact that there are pledges driving them around is secondary, not primary. Trying to cover up risk management issues with a "pledge driving program" doesn't eliminate the risk management issue.

Poking holes in your logic is so easy it's silly. For some reason, you think you are the wise one - perhaps because you have some equally naive followers supporting the decades of bad traditions you have bought into.

I took a class through my school that had leadership development as a big portion of it. I came out without being remotely close to anyone in my class (except for one classmate who was my pledge brother) and without having learned a whole lot of leadership.

When I say hazing I don't mean getting the s**t kicked out of you or garbage dumped on you, we agree, that's pointless. But I am of the opinion that having extremely challenging and stressful activities that the pledge class has to go through as a group brings them together and makes leaders. And getting yelled at/screamed at/punished when you screw up encourages you to do better. There's another group that builds leaders the same way and has seemed to do pretty well with it too - the military. I'm sorry if you're offended that I think it's foolish to replace what has worked for centuries to build leaders with a series of books and workshops and kindness.

But clearly we'll never agree, so I'm happy I don't go to NIU and my nationals stay out of my house's way, you clearly feel the opposite, ok.

I didn't realize having a pledge drive so that he saves the life of other brothers was "humiliation." That's the only hazing CB mentions.

Good chapters don't need "leadership programs", they attract leaders themselves. These leaders fine tune their leadership capabilities within the chapters without needing some politically correct bullshit from nationals. We were forced by nationals as pledges (hazing, I guess) to attend a leadership workshop. The head of the meeting showed up and said "...there's not much diversity here." Straight from the asses mouth in his showing of disapproval. I looked around....buncha guys from Texas, some from all walks of life in Arkansas. Looked pretty diverse to me.

Nationals is a waste of money, good for nothing more than insurance.

So are you to say that you never drank underage. Are you to say that no Sigma Nu drinks underage? Which would you rather, a pledge driving around a guy, or a guy driving around drunk? We have risk management because there is always risk, you can't eliminate it, that's why we have such programs to reduce it.

Leadership skills can't be taught on paper. The only way to truly teach someone to lead, is put him through stresses that make him a better, more well-rounded gentleman. Gentleman aren't made leaders, they are born leaders, and those born to lead, need to find something to hone those leadership skills, they join great chapters of great fraternities.

I hate that BS, why would I join a group of people I have nothing in common with?

kedzman, as a mom of boys, I have to say that this post isn't really going to "market" your fraternity to 18 year old boys. Maybe the organization that you are espousing would be better suited to mature adult men who are already paying bills and taking on adult responsibilities.

You say that Greeks join for the wrong reasons: that they shouldn't want to party, that they should be virtuous and noble, that they should strive for things that require a lot of hard work, dedication, delayed gratification, discipline, accountability & more. That sounds alot like my husband now, at 50, but certainly not the kid he was when he was back in college, and certainly not my own college age sons. Those types of ideals come through living, and 18 year olds haven't done much of that yet.

You also throw assertions out about these guys' characters that you really don't know anything about: that they are common, that they laugh at hard work and embrace folly, etc. Well, maybe they are 4.0 students. Maybe they are paying their fraternity dues from summer jobs. I don't know, and neither do you. They also will be much different in 20 years. Aren't we all different than we were when we were in college? I know I am:)

Anyway, it may be just me, but your posts really rub me the wrong way.

First off, this thread discussion has strayed from the original question. Now after being "captain obvious", I would like to quickly address each of the statements you are all presenting.

1. National awards are good indications of chapters that have excelled in national agenda, thats a given. In a "world that is becoming flatter" (Book by Thomas Friedman), competition for good jobs and getting into upper-level academia is exponentially increasing. So to recognize chapters that push for good grades, community involvement/ service, and reducing risk is beneficial for the chapters and the members of those chapters. Do you think that every member of "XYZ" fraternity will get an interview from one of their alumni? (rhetorical). And fyi, there are leaders that born but a majority of leaders are developed, and I say that because someone said, "Good chapters don't need "leadership programs", they attract leaders themselves" and what you are doing is a "leadership program" as well.
2. I am a Sigma Nu as well and yes we do get a good deal of advice and insight from Headquarters about chapter operations, but I would like to say that if chapters don't change with the times then we are going to become non-existent. And honestly our National program has changed with the times for the better otherwise I wouldn't have joined. Personally I think the word hazing is used too frequently and could be used as an umbrella term to convict meaningless situations, BUT I think that "And getting yelled at/screamed at/punished when you screw up encourages you to do better." is stupid!! All that gets you to do is live life through repetition and not understand why the hell the screwed up. I have played basketball collegiately and I have had good coaches and ones that just yell and hope that it works out. The way you develop leaders is by putting them in REAL LIFE SITUATIONS!! And that is what Sigma Nu does, we have a program called LEAD and yes without creating situations to parallel the lessons it is useless, but it creates the types of steps necessary to develop logical, calm, and ethical business leaders of tomorrow!
3. Pledge driving is wrong but it has the right mentality behind it. We looked into the concept but using active members to do the action, but like Kedzman said it is redundant the problem lies in just not letting people get drunk and I have been too drunk too many times I am not the golden child by any means. But another thing you can try to create is creating a list of people that are able to drive and use them to drive the drunks around or maybe if you are cautious keep a box of labeled keys at the door monitored by the door check-in people.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. If it's really about keeping brothers out of trouble, why not have a program where both brothers and pledges take a turn driving people around? This would ensure that you could keep the program going year round, not just in fall when you have lots of pledges.

This is exactly right. The concept of top tier is entirely a social one. It is about where your guys come from and what sororities you mix with. That's it.

I also agree to an extent with Elephant Walk about the leadership issue. Back in my time we hated our nationals and wanted nothing to do with them. Currently, members of our chapter are attending some of these leadership conferences and on balance they really like them. For officers, it has helped them in practical ways too- risk management, budgeting etc.

But I do not believe in the "drinking the Kool-aid" kind of stuff. Young men do grow and mature in their fraternity experience if they are inclined to do so, but you have to start with someone who is already leadership or success oriented. Fraternities can offer a place where most members just have fun and a few take on responsibility (as officers) that will help them in their own professional careers. But the idea that we can take a pile of chicken shit and turn it into chicken salad with a few inspirational seminars is silly.

Point being, I do see value in what our nationals offer the chapter these days- and many of the guys want to do it, so I support it. But I also appreciate the fact- as Elephant Walk implies- that if you want to have a solid top tier chapter, you have to start with guys who are solid to begin with. And while so many like to pile on about how top tier fraternities are all about booze and drugs, I should point out that the top houses at Texas with very large numbers still manage to have average GPAs over the all-men's UT average.

It naturally comes with the territory that a top tier house offering the best social opportunity is going to attract people from successful backgrounds who are going to tend to excel in other areas of their lives. And that, to me, makes a lot of the scorn and criticism mere "country club envy."

I know a woman who used to be an advisor to her sorority had told the girls if they ever needed a ride to call her, and the national told her SHE wasn't even allowed to do so. The reasoning that was if a member - pledge, alum, or collegian - drove someone home, it put the liability burden on the sorority for anything that might happen.

I'm sure lots of chapters do have programs like this - because they care about their brothers'/sisters' safety - but sadly, they have to do it under the table.

I will try to be polite here.

I strongly disagree with your first paragraph. We are talking about SOCIAL fraternities here. While it is absolutely true that founding fathers of fraternities put forth noble ideals to strengthen the bonds of brotherhood and create an organization greater than any individual member- the concept was always socially driven. And if you read up on your history you will find that partying and pranks etc. were a HUGE part of fraternity existence in the early days. Fraternities have been mistrusted and misunderstood from day 1 by a segment of the population and by many universities.

Big parties are just a reflection of what most people do when they are young- no matter what kind of organizations or friendships they have. When my parents and grandparents would have dinner parties or other events with fellow Army buddies- they retold great stories about the parties and the fun times. They did not sit around reading from the Officer's Code.

When I go to alumni parties, we talk about all the crazy stuff we did in school- we don't sit down and reread our pledge manuals.

Partying together is where the brotherhood comes from. It does not have to involve alcohol or drugs, though it often does. But again that is no different than any other group of people on this planet.

What is forcing some change right now are legal realities which affect other organizations besides fraternities. GLOs are not the only groups that routinely get sued when someone cannot control their own behavior and is seeking a scapegoat.

Now we do have to deal with that, but it does not mean that in dealing with it we are rejecting 100+ years of history and saying "that was all bad and this new way is all good." That is just salesmanship and spin- usually uttered by professional fundraisers seeking to raise tax free money for national fraternities. It has its place in the current financial environment for most fraternities, but it is not the 100% reality.

Brother, I hear what you're saying, but I don't agree 100%.

Back a few years ago, when I was just starting off in my own colony's existence, a long time alumnus who also happens to be very influential within our organization introduced me to the 'iron triangle,' or 3 B's of recruiting -- that being babes, bucks, and booze (not necessarily in that order). These things are key to how many very successful organizations operate today.

Later on, I attended our College of Chapters in 2001 (the first return to Lexington). There, HQ introduced the Values Based Recruitment program. I think that's what you're alluding to. VBR is great in that it involves somewhat of a paradigm shift in recruiting. No more do they want us to go after the guys who are going through Rush only to have a good time -- we want the guys who are after what we're after -- Brotherhood, Support and Friendship. We talk up things like our core values, the reason we were founded, etc.

I still think that the key to success lies somewhere between the old and the new. I think values based recruiting is wonderful, but at the same time, we shouldn't forget the social aspect of the organization, the old 3 B's. Both things are important. I'm not going to pretend to have some sort of cohesive philosophy about recruitment and what works. It never really was my forté. I just think that the truth is somewhere in between the old ways and the new way.. and I'll just leave it at that.

(my opinions are my own, and I do not speak for any other person or entity here)

Kevin, I agree with you and very well put.

Of course, we all want people to be the very best they can be - having good values and ideals.

But, it's ok to have some fun too;)

Love that 'iron triangle' theory - 3 B's haha! I've never heard that!

I think a lot of NPC and NIC groups have looked at the NPHC groups, seen the incredible involvement they have (by not just collegians but alums), and are trying to emulate it by being more businesslike and putting more emphasis on philanthropy and leadership and the group's principles. (That doesn't mean the NPHC groups don't have fun - of course they do!)

The problem, of course, is that the way NIC and NPC groups rush is completely opposite to rush for the NPHC groups.

I mean, Susie can have 6 breast cancer survivors in her family, and feel very drawn to ZTA because that's their philanthropy - but if Susie walks into a ZTA rush party and feels uncomfortable and doesn't like any of the sisters, she's going to cross ZTA off the list of sororities she wants to join.

We can't rush on the principle of "join the group where you fit in" and make it all about friendship and then once people are in, say that friendship and fun should take a back seat to philanthropy and leadership and living your principles.

I don't feel like responding, but I like what EE-BO and 33girl have to say about this.

If it weren't for the 3 B's I probably wouldn't have joined a fraternity.

I guess I'm a bad example, as leadership training was about 367th on my mind when I joined.

Three Cheers For Honesty!!

No, just a normal freshman guy.:)

All I know is that if I talked to someone at rush who was talking like Kedzman I would walk out of the door immediately.

I'd do it cuz I figure nationals were spying on us.

Yeah, me either, there are plenty of other organizations that offer chances for all that boring stuff, i.e. student goverment, clubs, and such. None rival fraternities (the real kind) in terms of what they offer socially. I wanted something more from my college experience than the drone of the norm, and while I don't need a fraternity to be social, it definitely structures and supports it.

It's normally not about what you know, but who you know.

a) Someone needs to find my post on some random thread that had about 10 or so things that determine your "excellence" as a chapter.

b) Also, I need to know these lofty standards you are using and who the “peers” are for Ole Miss Sigma Nu. As far as “good” chapters, I’d like to know what SEC chapters of yours that are THAT much better then:

* South Carolina.
* University of Alabama.
* Auburn University.
* P.S. We get do-overs on campuses we were strong on then got booted off of: (expl: Florida, Georgia, Vandy, LSU)

Sidenote: Arkansas you say is not bottom tier, so I'd assume they aren't horrible. Well, they have only been back on campus for like 2 years maybe? So they weren't horrible for 5 to 10 years. ;)

and for the thread: rock-chalk-jayhawk!

Sigma Nu at Ole Miss was the only one that came to mind.

I'm pretty sure Sigma Nu's not Old Row at Bama, though. Could be wrong, but thought Old Row was DKE, Phi Gam, KA, and SAE.

They've been on campus for longer than 2 years. I'd like to say it's been about 5 years or so now. They just got their house last year. In the beginning, they were highly questionable and weren't very selective. Especially when I first came on campus. Wooh boy. They've turned it around alot though.

I go to KU. Formal recruitment was this past weekend, but here's my take in case anyone still wants it.

Yes, anyone who has a house has a pretty big/nice one. Many of the houses are really impressive.

My house had a party with Sigma Nu last semester and a few of them subsequently made appearances at our formal. Good group of guys, and I see this chapter becoming strong once they get their numbers up. Also one of the CLEANEST fraternity houses I've been in!

My understanding is that Delta Tau Delta is taking their house back this year. TKE had been renting it from the Delts, but they got their numbers up enough to support a house. Not sure what's happening to TKE...

I'm pretty confident that Lambda Chi Alpha doesn't haze-- really. Upperclassmen regularly participate in BADD duty and they have "associate members" instead of pledges. But I'm a girl, so obviously I can't be 100% certain. I do, however, know of some other houses that definitely haze (at least in my definition). Again, that's to the best of my knowledge.

Beta Theta Pi routinely has the highest gpa, usually by a pretty large margin.

I have a lot more comments, but most of them would be unfair speculation, so I'll shut up.

FYI, you're wrong. Old Row at Bama: KA, SAE, DKE, Sigma Nu, Phi Gam, and I think Phi Delt (could be wrong on Phi Delt).

Not giving you the tiers, just the Old Row fraternities.

Really cool to have input from someone that is on campus at the time. That is a big change from when I visited the chapter house there. It was pretty trashed out; but could have been the result of a recent party and not the norm.

I haven't read most of this thread but there was one line from someone about their founders not having a clue about community service hours or something like that . With that in mind, I'll throw out one thought about national awards...

If the awards for your organization's top chapter awards aren't based on the principles of your organization as set forth by your founders, then you are rewarding chapters for the wrong things.

Sarah, formal recruitment was this past weekend? Am I reading that right?

Just curious, because the middle of June seems an odd time for formal recruitment.

Probably prudent and definitely panhellenic! :D

The Phi Gam house is in between Beta and EN on Old Row at Bama
DKE, SAE, and KA are the other three.
EN and Beta aren't top tier there even though they're old row.

good call. then i am definitely wrong.

Unless you're a certain two or three fraternities, every major national fraternity has two or three strong houses throughout the South.

I have to compliment you on such a polite, gracious post. You make a lot of good points and I agree with you. That being said, some 18-19 year old students are mature beyond their years. A lot of this his to do with the way their parents raised them and/or how tightly they hold onto their faith and live it out in their daily lives.

Our organization tends to attract young men who are a little more mature for their age than your typical 18 year old. It's hard to explain it, but you can feel the difference when you walk into a room with 50 Sigma Nu's from NIU vs. the other fraternities. As an alumnus, I've been to football tailgate parties and other large group events where fraternities are hanging out in packs. Many of the other fraternities make a wild spectacle of themselves can appear to be real bafoons. That is attractive to an 18 year old that wants to be a wild ass. The SN crowd tends to be a cut above in their social demeanor. They still have a great time and attract the top ladies - they just keep a cooler head about them.

I guess my point is, while most 18 year old boys are not going to be attracted to my post - that's OK. The 10% of the 18 year olds that are mature beyond their years and looking for something a little more than just a social fraternity experience is going to really be attracted to Sigma Nu. In an environment where everyone is throwing parties and recruiting to a social scene, we tend to take things to the next level to differentiate ourselves. There is a market for it. We attract leaders. We develop leaders. We have more of our members in positions of leadership on campus and in the community than any other fraternity. We have a 21 year old City Alderman and a 19 year old County Board Member. Two of the last 3 student government presidents have been Sigma Nus. They are #1 or #2 in GPA each of the last 4 semesters. On the social scene, on a campus with 15 fraternities and only 8 sororities, SN consistently pairs with the top 4-5 sororities.

Thanks again for the gracious post. You are more careful and considerate than I in the way you express yourself. I tend to come across a bit abrupt and sometimes abrassive in my text posts. I'm much better in person! ;)

Agreed. Sigma Nu is solid mid to upper mid. I'm not sure about Beta at all.

Okay, we can be e-friends;) haha

Thanks for your response. It sounds like your group of guys is wonderful, and I am so glad for you that you have been a part of it! Maybe they're just more mature and staid than most 18 year olds I know.

Not to say that the 18 year olds I know and have known arent wonderful, they just are/were looking for the "social" type fraternity that are more prevalent at the colleges that I have visited and the one I attended.

I feel that it is unfair to make negative blanket statements about groups in which you are not a part of. While some groups may act, in your opinion, like a**es at a tailgate, they may, in fact have a deep and lasting brotherhood that is just not apparant to you and your brothers. Just as you wouldn't want any part of them and their group, they wouldn't want to be a part of yours - doesn't make them evil monsters, just different.

I will say that the events where parents are included at my son's fraternity, the boys don't act like bafoons or make spectacles of themselves. They, in fact, have been nothing but polite and respectful. But, that's with the adults present - I don't know what they're like when we're not there ;).

I <3 srmom.

It's fine to be proud of the fact that you do something differently, but it's not fine to say everyone else sucks because they aren't you. (Unless it's a rush shirt and you're being fairly jokey about it.)

Brother,

I am disappointed to see you perpetuating "the Iron Triangle" or the "3-B's" of recruitment. Just because that alumnus is influential doesn't mean he is right. We are called to a higher standard than that.

I've been involved in Greek life since 1987 and seen a lot. The 1980's were indeed "the big '80's" where fraternities surged in numbers, in part, due to the popularity of movies like Animal House (1977) and others to come. Until about 1986 or so, there were no rules. Fraternity parties were wide open. As a result, there were many alcohol related deaths, property damage to our historic homes and injuries - and of course, law suits. Risk management rules imposed by National organizations were the result of unchecked liability. Law suits financially threatened the existence of our National organizations.

Risk management heated up in the 1990's. Huge numbers of chapters around the nation were shut down. Other chapter went by way of the dinosaur and were victims of their own actions. The mid to late 1990's on my campus were devastating. At our chapter, for example, I knew it was game over when I saw our "good kids" leaving and the knuckleheads staying. Parties and drugs were increasing. Chapter involvement, GPA and recruitment numbers were decreasing. That was the beginning of the end. You cannot recruit quality TO the organization if you do not have quality IN the organization. Alumni stepped in a quitely pulled the charter. Massive drug busts happened at Delta Upsilon and Sigma Chi in 1999 - two of our historically best chapters. There was a strong "anti-establishment" attitude in the mid to late 1990's influenced by the "grunge" culture with young people - kind of similar to the decline of Greek life in the early to mid 1970's.

In 2005 and beyond, it seems many organizations are becoming a lot more responsible. New groups like ours are starting out on the right foot. Other organizations are trying hard to turn the tide of the culture because of the risk and poor results they have gotten.

I'll challenge you to make a slight paradigm shift. Instead of leading with Beer, Babes and Bucks - try leading with all of the attributes a top fraternity offers by way of leadership development and personal growth. What will happen is the best of the best will be attracted to you. From that, the bucks will come from higher manpower. The Babes will beat a path to your door because quality women desire to be with quality men. The Beer is simply a constant on a college campus and within fraternity culture. Everyone knows it's there. You don't need to flaunt it or promote it. Pushing parties only hurts you - it cannot help you. What I mean is, a party-centric recruitment message can scare away top students who become concerned that they will not be able to be high-achievers if the culture is too party oriented. Conversely, the party-only guys will find a home at your fraternity and they may bring little else to your chapter and put you at risk.

Again, if you lead with personal development, the bucks and babes will follow. The beer will always be there.

God, y'alls nationals are just as miserable as ours.

Here's a few gems:
You're too focused on "partying", to be honest. You can have a helluva social life with a party every night and no one would consider it a "party-centric rush message" (I refuse to call it recruitment, that's more bullshit nationals has stacked on us). The best chapters are up to their ears in drugs and alcohol, but that doesn't mean you can't get stuff done. It's just a small bit of the bigger picture.

Hahahahaha. Where do I start?

Leadership development? We recruit guys who are already leaders and want to be leaders on campus. If you mean better leaders? Sure, being a part of a fraternity forces you to do that. Structured and intelligent hazing creates personal growth in the fraternity. Without focusing on "leadership development and personal growth" we're a very strong fraternity. We pull the strongest guys because being in a top house pulls top leaders, not top partiers. Furthermore, the bucks have been there for ages and will continue to be there without doing a "paradigm shift". Pulling in the top leaders means pulling in the top bucks generally (hefty generalization I'm guilty of, but I think for the most part it's true).

We well know the history of fraternities. Thanks for updating us nationalsman. We were taught plenty of that during pledgeship. Gah.

FYI- Kevin is a highly educated contributing member to society and a credit to Sigma Nu. Rest assured your "disappointment" in him is very poorly placed, and alumni like us tend to get pissed off very quickly when someone takes all of our work and financial contributions to a chapter or to Greek Life in general and then says we are bad guys because we did not take some leadership course or because we refuse to tow some party line and never say what we think.

The rest speaks for itself. You are taking a few incidents and blowing it up into the need for a revolutionary vision that you think will magically attract a new kind of rushee- which implies you have disdain for all who have come before.

You are that upper middle-class white guy who thinks he can go be a teacher in an inner city school and overnight inspire and change the lives of your students- which of course requires you assume they are so unable to think for themselves that only you can help them. (And there are many more like you- I am not saying you are just out there on your own.)

I think your general assessment of Risk Management evolution over the past 20 years is largely correct, but by acting like you have discovered some magic inspiration- you really insult everyone around you.

Consider too how alumni might feel about this kind of "Ivory Tower" approach. I can tell you that it pisses a lot of them off- and they are the ones whose donations really fund nationals and chapter houses.

Leadership development has its place- but the idea that it is some magic solution to a problem that is largely mischaracterized as a flaw in fraternities in general is great leap.

Nationals are supposed to say this kind of stuff, not actually mean it.

I have no idea what you're talking about Kedzman. The chapters at my school that are on top of the social ladder are also home to the campus leaders.
I'll give an example breakdown for UF.
~130 members
~75 have some sort of leadership position in a campus organization other than the fraternity.
Probably 10-15 of those are very active in several campus organizations.
And ALL 130 know how to balance school with drinking and girls.

You're probably the same guy who claims it's too difficult to have quality and quantity in a pledge class.