What's wrong with people from Plano!? :o

Flame away here, but why is it so wrong for us to talk about 'Tiers'? They do exist, and it's a part of greek life whether or not we agree with the rankings or basis fro criteria. There was a post many moons ago about the tiers actually coming out in Texas Monthly magazine. I read the article recently describing the layout of the system at Cornell. I know we don't always get the most intelligent PNM's around here, but if we preface it with all the NPC spirit 'go in with an open-mind'. I guess on the one side I see how it can be hurtful to shallow people who take everything they read on line as the gospel. But, at the other side, we are here to discuss everything related to greek life. I just don't understand why 'Tiering' is like the uncle in prison, the one we all know about, but nobody ever brings up at the family reunion.

It just doesn't make sense to me that people are verbally attacked and chased off the forums for having an opinon about anything from Reality shows to alumnae initiation, but we can't talk about something like this. Why do we encourage 'users' of this site to have thick skin? I've been to the 'other' sites to read what people's opinions of DG are at other schools, and while it sucks to read that they are the 'crack whores' at one school and 'the fatties' at another, it doesn't hurt my own experience and opinion of what an awesome organization I belong to. (And, I KNOW that others aren't able to figure it out for themselves.)

Just something I was thinking about...

DG are hotties at my school :)

Once you post on GC "XYZ is the sorority no one wants to join" it's on the internet forever. People can keep pullling that up when they google. There's a post on here about sororities at a competitive school that talks about the most unpopular house on campus from several years ago. Even though the chapter has turned around and is doing much better - people can still pull that up and still read that "XYZ is the weakest house at Google U."

Not only that - you have no idea who is writing what. The absurdity of this has been pointed out (i.e. me talking about how awesome the AXOs at my school were when we have no AXOs).

What's funny is that no one ever says "blah blah fraternity, the one no one wants to join". Or the like.

I didn't say that they are "all" from old money. In fact, I made no references to anything about old money regarding private schools. Please actually read. I said the Delta is where old money can be found. Which is true. Highland Park is also a good place.

I said:
Paraphrased: The majority of the good fraternity men come from private schools in Dallas, Memphis and Little Rock. The Delta is a good place as well, but it doesn't have private schools (it has a few, Lee Academy for one but that's a school of like 20 people). While it doesn't have private schools, it does have some old money mostly from cotton farming and so forth. Although, the University of Arkansas' fraternity systems valuation of Southeastern Arkansas guys is a bit higher than it should be, in my opinion.

You made the generalization, not I.

edit: I'm not going to discuss the definition of old money. It's not pertinent to the topic whatsoever. I wrote out a big long thing, but in the end it's not worth it.

How about we continue with what we're talking about...

Pensacola seems like a solid place to rush having met a few of the locals...I'm still iffy on Tampa and Orlando, but I know there are still good areas throughout Florida, just getting scarcer it seems. Part of the reason I put Florida so low.

That's why it drives me nuts that people want this thread shut down. As long as nobody gets us off topic, this is easily a very civil thread.

I never expected to see fraternity men in the same sentence as Panama City. Wild city, but def the redneck riviera lol

The "public-schools-that-might-as-well-be-private" is alot of what the Delta is. I take that back...alot of the schools aren't wealthy at all, but the people who are go to the UofA, the ones that aren't end up at UCA, SAU, or elsewhere. Very stratified.

Bolles is definitely a great school from everything I've been told.

The tier system of Universities is very based on the schools which the University recruits from.

Ole Miss and Alabama all have lots of people from Jackson and Mobile. Key recruiting areas in terms of top-notch fraternity men.

Texas has the entire state, which include cities I've mentioned before (HP, Tyler, parts of Houston)

Part of Kentucky's problem is that it draws alot from Ohio...which isn't so good. This is my problem with Arkansas (which draws heavily from the north Dallas, Oklahoma, and Missouri, and northwest Arkansas) Just my opinion, though.

Sorry, but IMO opinion this is way off. LSU and Texas should not be top, UGA should. Texas Tech? Oklahoma? What? Honestly, these shouldn't even be included at all.

I think all the Big 12 schools, except Texas are undoubtedly 3rd tier, along with UF and Mississippi State. Alabama, Ole Miss, and UGA are tops with all the remaining SEC schools falling somewhere in the 2nd tier.

ETA: What about UVA and Clemson? Those beat out any Big 12 school, even probably Texas.

I think that is because of the perceived notion that through formal recruitment (for sororities) no woman would choose the smallest or least popular sorority... and because of the secrecy over the process and people's rankings, we rarely have enough info to dispel that myth. In contrast, with the guys often not having a coordinated system of recruitment, fewer people doubt that the people who joined XYZ fraternity wanted to be there (rather than just ending up there after an elaborate bid matching system).

maybe UVA based on the tradition of founding there, but its probably gone a bit off the deep end with it pretty much almost being of ivy leauge status these days, not knocking it at all. I want to go there for grad school.

And Clemson? Clemson? first off i go to USC so don't get me started on the purple and orange lol, but their fraternity houses are straight horrible, most don't have houses. And there is what like 2 bars in that town?

props to the UGA statement though, very true

I agree with all your other statements though about UGA, Bama, and Ole Miss being top tier. I like my school but i must admit, USC and the likes at USC, Auburn, or Tennessee are all still good but def of not the same stature. and UF is prob def on the lower end.

My pick on Texas being up there lays mainly on how strong the top two are and not the totality of the system honestly.

UVA and Clemson deserve to be on there somewhere.

I didn't put Georgia on top because of how small the chapters are compared to the rest of the school. Aren't normal fraternities at Georgia around 70-80 people?

And I did mostly place the Big 12 in the third tier, except for Oklahoma and Texas.

I'm not sure how big most chapters at UGA are. I was just saying I don't think the Big 12 should have been included. Texas is the only school that compares to the SEC. Greek life may be huge at Oklahoma, but it just doesn't hold a candle to the SEC or Texas.

Old Money is typically designated for people that have had money in their family for at least 3-4 generations.

No they don't, and I'm not saying that because I go to Texas. LSU shouldn't be in the top. Texas should....without question. The houses, the money, the guys that make up the top houses, the sorority scene, Austin, etc. etc. Texas Tech and Oklahoma? No, probably not.

Now that I think about it, you're probably right. I just think people sometimes give the Big 12 way too much credit, simply because of Texas. Greek life at Texas is great, but the rest of the Big 12 South is more comparable to the Big 10.

Yeah I agree. I'm not a Big XII fluffer. The only other schools in the region that you can really include are SMU and TCU, and obviously they are not in the Big XII. It would even be hard for me to include TCU just because of how their set-up is.

Agreed.

I think SMU should be somewhere up there, perhaps in the upper 2nd...the top houses are tops, the tier in the middle is very questionable. The people it draws from are not the people I would wish in my fraternity. But Phi Delt definitely does well.

"Old Money" isn't really considered a technical term anymore, in relation to the War of Northern Aggression. It mostly means that the family has been wealthy for several generations. Yes I know that wealth does not equate to class, but its impossible to deny some connection. It is true that "a fool and his money are soon parted" so the very fact that a family is able to maintain their wealth should be an indication that they're doing something right.

That said, I'm not from an old money family (not ashamed of it either), neither are some of my pledge brothers, and I can tell you that there is honestly no distinction between the two within our fraternity.

In terms of certain towns producing more top-house guys, that's also true. Just as with family money, a town or neighborhood that has money will likely have better high schools, etc. For example in Dallas, even if you're not from a high-class background, if you go to a good private school or Highland Park, some of that is going to rub off on you.

100% truth.

At Arkansas, I can tell you where every fraternity recruits from.

It defines their fraternity (as it should).

Why, bless your heart macallan. Where I come from (Highland Park - Fratty would be proud), that is considered new money.

And, as I consider myself a lady, I refuse to discuss money anymore. It just is *not done*.

3-4 generations in Highland Park would definitely not put a family in the 'new money' category. I didn't go to HPHS, but I'm from the area and can speak with confidence on the subject.

By your definition, there's only a handful of houses on beverly that would qualify.

Well and I don't think maccallen was specifically talking about his own family's situation, he was only defining it.

I enjoy bummin around Highland Park...the Blue Goose on Greenville is pretty good.

Neither here nor there, Highland Park is an excellent place to recruit from.

ehhhh...

i enjoyed my trip there and wouldn't mind a trip back. but its the wild shit that goes on there that makes it crazy, its nothing but a long one lane road with one big club and a ton of hotels, there really isn't shit to do in panama and the beaches suck. I'd take a wild Euro Trip or Cancun any day over it, Panama is an experience though haha :p

and we def get a good deal of fraternity men at South Carolina... you basically get rich kids from North Carolina who weren't smart enough for the likes of UNC or Duke and want in an SEC school, some guys from the greenville/spartanburg area, and then Charleston (thats the frattiest looking town i've ever seen in my entire life).

i gotta agree with what everyone is saying though.

I went to a private school in Atlanta, Georgia, most of the kids there had dads who were lawyers, doctors, or even CEO's. No one in my family has gone to college, my mom works in a retail store and my dad is a used car salesman but they worked their ass off to make some money and send me there and to college.

Now growing up around kids that wore polo's everywhere and were basically bred fraternity men... it wears off... my style has definately changed from freshman year of highschool to freshman year of college where i am now.

You are your environment for the most part.

Not a single guy friend of mine save one or two out of the graduating class did not join a fraternity.

Welcome to UT!

Can I ask y'all a question? How do guys from the SEC schools honestly view W&L? I saw one of you included it as in-between first and second tier. I'm very curious to see what you have to say.

In my opinion....very, very close to 1st tier...if not there.

What a great school Greek wise (and academically, of course) I consider it similar to University of the South or Hampden-Sydney. The greek system's great, but since it's a small, private school the GDI's could be Greek at most schools.

Having Auburn in the same tier as LSU and UGA is laughable. So is having SC in the top tier.

I'd say Bama, Ole Miss and Texas at the top. Followed by an intermediate group of like Auburn and W&L, then probably UGA, Clemson, LSU, etc.

Not that there are many independents... last numbers I saw, 90% of men are Greek. I think that number has been boosted that high finally by the addition of two NPHC fraternities, which were included in the total count. I'd have to go back and find the page again.

Thanks for the response. I was just curious--I went there, just to clarify. I wasn't sure how it was viewed from the outside.

Hampden-Sydney... LOL. That place is so insane. :p

I think this is a reflection in the way that sororities do recruitment. A fraternity can target the guys they want and only take those guys without a ton of pressure for not taking 60 of them. And the group overall can be smaller as long as they are financially healthy and it's no big deal.

With sororities, you have to take quota and be at total or it reflects poorly on the group.

ETA: I see Skylark has already said this, but I replied before I read all the way through.

why is SC such a joke? i dont think its higher then UGA, but i think its on level with LSU or Auburn. have u been here or are u talking out of your ass based on the bias of a lack of football tradition?

What?

I wasn't commenting on my own family, I was making a general, blanket statement about what constitutes Old Money. My explanation was more than valid and completely appropriate.

For the record, I have lived in Highland Park and have had family there since 1952. I go to Texas and have several fraternity brothers who are from HP. Furthermore, while you may exude classiness and modesty, there are multitudes of people who live there that have helped perpetuate the reputation of HP as a haven for self-centered, elitist, self-entitled pricks. Perhaps think about that the next time you feel the need to "bless my heart", tell me where you are from, and let me know how much of a lady you are. Being from Highland Part doesn't mean you automatically piss class.

Now, I'm not sure if you are saying that in HP, talking about wealth is "new money" or if you are trying to tell me that in HP, my definition is incorrect. I'll assume you meant the first. If you meant the latter than all I can do is laugh. 100+ years of family wealth (that would be about 4 generations) is most certainly old money. Highland Park was nothing more than building plans 100 years ago so I find it odd that anyone living there would refute the definition.

I found this thread to be very interesting and I want to thank everyone for proving we can discuss somewhat "touchy" subjects without huge fallouts.

I am not fully in the know about fraternities, but I can say I am a lifelong Floridian. I attended UF and I can agree that it is different when it comes to fraternities vs. "The South". I would like to think after numerous generations continue to pass here, it may establish itself in time and its powers just like the old south. It is odd to say/explain, but in a way Florida sort of stands on its own. I do think many people can understand what I am saying (especially those who live here).

I came through at a time when So Florida was growing. I was a little girl when hardly anyone was here. My city began development when I was a toddler and I have lived there since. It was a nice area/well respected among upper middle class families and some ultra rich. My point in this, when you rushed/were recruited it almost didn't matter where you lived because everything was so new and unestablished. People just thought it was neat to hear if you lived near them or they recognized your little suburb. It was comforting to talk to someone and they knew little quirks about your area and its newness.

I can speak for my knowledge about sororities. It was not peaches and cream. It was extremely tough and competitive and it really was out of your control for the most part. Majority of the girls on my hall rushed and only three received bids. It was first and foremost about how you looked. If you did not have the level of "good looks", you immeditaley were knocked out of numerous groups. Then, your "figure" came into play. After that, it was what your father did for a living and how much money you were perceived to have. From there it was how you dressed, your jewelry, and what handbag you carried etc. It then went to your grades, high school activities, what area you were from, and possibly a mention of your school. (Remember, our areas and schools were all so new). If you were the daughter of someone very important you garnered a pass on much of the above and everyone knew it. If you were a legacy it was important, but all the recs were not as important.

This was the truth and it was extremely hurtful to so many young girls. I will never forget all the tears and hurt from the rush week and on for the entire school year. I have to say it brewed some hate between greek and non-greek women. It was hard to see so many girls upset and everyone knew much of it was based on looks and an outward visual. Many outstanding girls were never even close to being part of a sorority and they had greatness to offer.

A great deal of time has passed and I am sure aspects of this have changed, but I am a realist. To a degree, this is what real life is like and I don't like to hide this when I speak to younger people. I really like to be honest, but I do it with encouraging words and a positive angle.

When I was at the university, it was really like this. I see the parallels as I read the fraternity stories. To tell someone to go into rush now with an open mind is nice, but you aslo have to go in realistically as well.

I love the entire greek system and there is so much goodness involved, but I know from my experience that many people do not enter into the system at such a young age for the philanthropy and for reasons in which it was initially established. That is life. I am one of the people who cheer for the people who go AI because many of those women really want to be a part of the group for strong reasons, especially if they enter the group at much older ages.

The tier system will always be here and there is no getting away from it. This is how life really is. As you age, you will see that this does become less important. How you look, how much money you have, where you live, what type of work you engage in all become less important. The goodness inside of each person is much more important. How you live your life, how you carry yourself, how you treat others, and the goodness you do is of much more importance. Kind of funny because "doing good" is what sorority life is truly based.

Great post

I've been there, I nearly went to grad school there. My family is from SC. South Carolina is a fine school, and a solid greek school. But I wouldn't rank it among the remaining greek powerhouses, at least using my criteria. If football was the only concern, Ole Miss wouldn't be the consensus #1 greek school in the country.

You guys are vastly overstating UGA greek life. I would put SC on par with UGA and LSU. I think a number of factors go into my tiering of schools, including greek tradition, financial success, prominence on campus, attitude of the school itself, etc. UGA simply doesn't compete with Ole Miss, Alabama, Auburn, etc...on those last two categories. A decade ago perhaps. Not now. It is in a town full of hippies at a school that is turning more and more to the left. That is fine, but I don't think it helps the greek system. The school feeds more and more from metro Atlanta, and though plenty of fraternities still draw from Augusta or Savannah, fraternities full of transplant students (via metro area) are having their impact. There are probably 3 schools in the SEC that are still traditional, conservative, SEC-of-old type, and they're Ole Miss, Auburn and Alabama. I think that factors in huge when retaining a traditional emphasis on greek life. You can actually see the same impact that UGA is experiencing at Auburn (drawing on ATL students), but the degree is fairly disparate.

LSU is a matter all to itself. I thoroughly enjoy the time I've spent hanging out with folks in BR, but it is pretty difficult to compare the atmosphere of BR to Tuscaloosa or Auburn or Oxford. LSU is completely different than the schools we talk about most.

I understand your argument. But i think to completely think that your standards will hold true for the next 2 or 3 decades is a false hope. With the competitiveness of the job market these days you are going to be seeing influxes of students from places like atlanta and bigger cities, not to mention places like augusta and savannah in a few years won't be the more conservative places that you think they will be. (conservative probably still but not in the same sense as today).

Schools are going to be harder and harder to get into and you are going to see more numbers going to schools like UGA. i think you underestimate them as well, i think you'll be surprised at the number of "fraternity men" going there next year, national title here we come.

Oh and also, where did u go to undergrad?

Auburn. But in an effort to show that I view this somewhat objectively, note that I admit Alabama is a better greek school. Also, I do have pretty strong connections to most of the SEC schools I've mentioned.

I agree with you though about my criteria not holding up in the long term, and I think that is unfortunate.

I think I'd love LSU greek life if I went there, but it is different. The traditional roots are still present, but yeah, just a whole other ballgame.

That's what made my rankings so tough.

Louisiana in itself is an odd state and very different from the rest of the South. Throw in a top school and it's another world I think. It has an excellent Greek system but there's somethin unexplainable about it in my opinion.

I had Auburn ranked lower because of my own admitted bias. I've visited there and found it very good for greek life, but last year I met some fraternity guys that I believed to have been top tier at another fraternity house pre-gaming for the Arkansas-Auburn game. They weren't dressed for the occasion for the game and had some odd people that weren't respectful. They were definitely not 3rd tier guys, but not 1st tier at Arkansas either. Of course, that is just one anecdote and there are perhaps thousands that contradict it.

I am enjoying this thread very much. It is an interesting topic and I love reading the informative responses.

Although it's been MANY years since I was on campus, I wouldn't trade my Greek experience at LSU for anything in the world!

One thing I wanted to point out is that the campus is (was) made up of primarily three distinct groups from Louisiana...the North Louisiana students, New Orleans students, and the South Louisiana students...each group has a different "flavor" from these vastly different regions of the state. Now, the out-of-state students, especially from Texas, are gaining in numbers, too.

Louisiana a "different" state...absolutely!
A little wild...yes!

But, oh how we love LSU!

Haha, man...I skipped the Texas - OU game for the first time in 15 years to go to LSU - Florida and it was one of the most wild weekends I have ever had. Baton Rouge is 100% insane.

I agree with Elephant Walk's assessment. The greek life there seemed to be great. The guys I met, mostly Sigma Chi's (top tier there) were all very legit......but there was something about the whole system that I couldn't quite put my finger on.