Oh shut up.

Rude, because they're pointing out the fact that you never seem to include historically black fraternities or sororities in your "who's the best" threads?

I mean, you don't seem to have a problem checking out the info for 71 NIC member groups (3 of which are NPHC groups also, so you would only need to check out 6 additional groups to have figures for all of the NPHC), but 9 NPHC member groups has you in a tizzy?

Hopefully we're all wrong, but you must realize how this looks.

Oh I thought he was talking about the people who thought the PBK "elite" criteria was funny.

Did he (research and) mention Kappa Alpha Psi, Alpha Phi Alpha, and Iota Phi Theta in one of these threads. I missed it but that's a good start if he did.

If that's the case, I'm quite amused because it would be the first time in the history of this site that aopirose or honeychile got called rude.

My name is Rashid Darden. Ask about me.

ROTFL! I just might have to change my signature! You, too, aopirose?

Classy. Namecalling? Really? That's very nice of you to do to people who critique your research. Very professional.

If you can't handle criticism of your "research" (i.e. compilation and comparison of unrelated facts), perhaps you shouldn't post here, instead of telling people not to post in your thread.

I do need a new signature, honey. 33, can I quote you? :p

As for the OT, it is an interesting an tidbit. What’s next? Who has the most chapters at schools with an NCAA equestrian team?

you know you can, girlfriend. :)

honey, we need to take your new rudeness to a punk bar or two. :p

I'm going with Cornell then Georgia.

No aopirose, the most chapters at schools with an NCAA Rifle Team!

Yes, there are a few highly selective schools that don't have a Phi Beta Kappa chapter -- the service academies, Caltech, and Bryn Mawr among them. But many of those schools don't host GLO chapters on campus anyway, so their non-participation in PBK isn't relevant to the thread. (Many schools known for their excellent engineering or pre-professional programs do have chapters, such as MIT, Auburn, Texas A&M, etc.).

I don't believe all colleges and universities are equal in academic quality, and the marketplace doesn't believe that either. PBK is one of the better metrics to use if you want to put together a list of the 300 or so best undergraduate liberal arts programs in the country. Obviously a group that large is going to include more than just the Ivy League level institutions, but it's still an academically select group within the 2200+ four-year institutions in this country. So I was interested to see oldu's results, and if someone puts up an NPHC or MCGLO thread on the topic, I'll be interested in that, too.
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I'm going with Kentucky!

And for the record, I am not even looking these up.

After looking it up, my revised guess for most chapters is Nebraska.

2008 Team Qualifiers (Smallbore Three-Position and Air Rifle)
University of Alaska Fairbanks
University of Kentucky
University of Nebraska, Lincoln
University of Nevada, Reno
Texas Christian University
United States Military Academy
United States Naval Academy
West Virginia University

2008 Individual Qualifiers (Smallbore Three-Position)
Michelle Bauer, University of the Sciences in Philadelphia
Michael Dickinson, Jacksonville State University
Cameron Hicks, Murray State University
Chad Jernigan, Tennessee Technological University
Jacob Savitts, University of Kentucky

2008 Individual Qualifiers (Air Rifle)
Leslie Angeli, University of Kentucky
James Clark, Ohio State University
Kasey Meyer, Murray State University
Shannon Wilson, University of Mississippi

GO CATS!

But even if this were the case, the implicit argument is itself a logical fallacy (I have been teaching my students about these of late), especially if my understanding of the ways that NPC/NIC/IFC organizations colonize is correct. The appearance of specific social greek orgs on the same campus as PBK ultimately proves nothing about either organization, which is what most people seem to be pointing out.

Sidebar: I too have noted that oldu's posts never take into consideration NPHC orgs.

Good luck, someone. :p

so i guess that means all other GLOs don't have any standards when it comes to expanding because they don't have the brightest students there :rolleyes:

Exactly. In many cases, GLO chapters were there before the PBK chapter.

BTW - Nice work TSteven on the rifle teams.

Why, thank you. UK does a good job promoting the Rifle Team. For what it is worth, Kentucky folk love to hunt. As such, a lot of Kentuckians grew up learning to shoot all those crazy varmints and wild critters from hundreds of yards away. Who knew that some would parley that ability into an athletic scholarship to a Phi Beta Kappa institution of higher learning.

Most, if not all, social GLOs list scholarship among their purposes.

Certainly an excellent education (and Greek experience) can be obtained from a non-Phi Beta Kappa campus. My alma mater is not on the list and is considered a competitive liberal arts school. If a school is on the list that you think is not "elite" because it's a large state university known as a "football school," you must realize that the size of the library, the research projects by faculty and the number of undergrads going on to pursue post-graduate work makes the school an excellent candidate.

I find the list interesting. Actually, if I was starting a social GLO -- I'd be more than satisfied with having a chapter at every school listed on the Phi Beta Kappa website.

oldu does a lot of work compiling these threads and I enjoy them. He stated that he would include NPHC groups if he had an accurate list. I think he's being more than accomodating.

oldu, I understand the correlation and really appreciate you putting up with all this!

Posterity.

And some not so highly selective schools that do. Which is why the benchmark is flawed.

True. And interestingly, many here rejoice when they hear that their sorority or fraternity will be colonizing at a so called "big-name" university. Even if the university is only known because of the football team. Or perhaps simply because it is the flagship university for the state. One only needs to read some of the colony and expansion threads to get a feel for it.

And for what it is worth, I too enjoy oldu's threads.

Accomodating really, or condescending? If he is willing to do "a lot of work" on non-NPHC groups, why not be willing to do it on NPHC's? That is the crux of the issue.

I guess I don't see the need for PBK to be a "flawless" measure of liberal arts academic quality for the list to be of interest. Ok, so it has flaws -- so what? I mean, we're not here to divide grant money among these institutions or do anything of any consequence. We're just chatting on a chat board. Let's suppose the PBK list has 75% overlap with the institutions I would consider the top 300 in the country for liberal arts. That's accurate enough to hold my attention for 10 minutes, which is all a chat board thread is supposed to do.

Surely the data show a pattern. If there's really no relationship between PBK chapters and some social GLOs, then you wouldn't expect to see such massive variation among the GLOs in one conference. You'd expect to see a large number of groups around the mean and a few outliers at the top and bottom of the scale. But you don't see that -- not even close. In fact, there's a statistically remarkable clustering of a few groups that have huge PBK overlap. There's clearly a non-random association between (for example) KKG and PBK, and that is of interest even when the data themselves say nothing about the cause. That's where the chat comes in.

I'm not an NPC or IFC member and I don't have any agenda to promote one GLO relative to the rest. Anyway, why does a thread need to "prove" anything to be of interest? It's just some observations to chat about.
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And promote discussion, which is all that has happened here. If everyone just read and didn't comment it would be a very boring message board.

LOL. If you're going to get technical, the NCAA is not the governing body of Intercollegiate Equestrian. The Intercollegiate Horse Show Association, or IHSA, is. It was developed by Bob Cacchione in 1967... http://www.ihsainc.com/ I rode all 4 years at school and still am actively involved as an alum :)

ETA: Sorry! I apologize :) This is different from what I am involved in... http://www.varsityequestrian.com/ In my university, we were considered a club and did not have varsity status.

With all due respect, he can only work with what is available. And if no ones cares enough to provided assistance - about their own organizations or others - that is not his fault as well.

Are you serious? It's not about caring enough -- he can make NINE phone calls and most likely get all the information he needs! LAZY!

Of course you should get technical. You rode and you know your stuff. I found this at Varsity Equestrian - The Official Website of NCAA Varsity Equestrian.

"In 1998, equestrian was classified as an NCAA emerging sport. Many people within the horse industry have united together to help advance the sport to full NCAA championship status. In order to attain this goal and hold a NCAA Equestrian Championship, there must be 40 Division I/II schools that sponsor equestrian as a varsity level program.

Currently 23 colleges and universities offer equestrian as a varsity sport and more continue to add the program each year."

Or how about a visit to the school's web site? It's a start.

oldu claims NPHC org websites don't have chapter listings -- most have a chapter locater of some sort.

I just don't buy that the NPC and NIC orgs ALL have complete listings on their national websites and the po NPHC orgs are just so much work and have Section 8 websites.

so i'm lazy. is there a point to be proven?

I understand your point of view. And for sake of discussion, lets say that perhaps he is lazy. So what? Is it oldu's responsibility to provide the list?

If someone really cares enough about that information being on GC, instead on complaining that no one has yet to provide it for you (the general you), then either start your own list or (genuinely) offer to assist with the research.

True. And that appreciation for scholarship is what enables me to further appreciate that when one presents research, one is prepared to explain and defend it without resorting to namecalling. Appreciating scholarship means asking questions and seeking clarification, not just taking something at face value.

He was asked to provide his working definition of the word "elite." As far as I can tell, not only did he never define that term, but he called those who questioned it "rude." Nothing scholarly about behavior like that...

ETA: I do appreciate the time that oldu puts into these lists and I have found some of them to be very interesting. But I also think that people have asked some very legitimate questions that deserve to be addressed.

I (the specific I) have provided the best way to obtain the information.

But for the record -- did anyone really care that much about the information being presented on ANY of the councils?

If you're going to have a thread as general as "Most chapters at Phi Beta Kappa schools" and not qualify it as being about WHITE GLOS only (yes, I said it, and for a reason), then yes, oldu should be held to a standard of doing research on just nine more orgs and making it complete.

Hell, several of the NPHCs are older than some of the NICs and NPCS.

And let's not get into Phi Beta Kappa schools where there are ONLY NPHC orgs.

QFE

I call to question any definition of "elite" that includes Agnes Scott and excludes Georgia Tech. No offense to my Scottie friends, but give me a break, y'all.

wait, he did what?