Sometimes it makes me wonder how a chapter can be above total and not even a decade later they are considered "struggling" by nationals. I wonder what happened during those intervening years.

I also feel that other sororities are guilty of ruining a chapters reputation. All it takes is being childish and pissed at another sorority and "boom" the rumor starts spreading like wildfire and if that particular chapter is struggling it gets around. As if the PNM's don't "tent talk" :rolleyes:

I mean lets face it, in reality I would guess that 75% of the rumors floating around about chapters are started by other chapters (sorority or fraternity). People talk crap, fact of life. And most people can't cop up to the fact of talking crap.

Wow!! UGAalum94, did you ever hit the nail on the head. While I agree, also, with some of SWTX Belle's comments, the bottom line is there are those groups that can take risks on a campus and those that have to be very careful about every recruitment. Unfair as it might sound, that is the way it is on many campuses.

There is a pecking order and unfortunately on some campuses some get to peck more than others.

Please don't misunderstand - I know far too well how easy it is to get a reputation as the sorority that pledges "fat" girls, or "party" girls, etc. My comments were addressed specifically to the vague statements EW put out as being the reason a chapter is struggling on his campus.

My point is that you can't say it is determined by, for example, the length of time the sorority has been on the campus, or even the number of alumnae in the area. I don't know every chapter on every campus, but I would be very surprised if all 26 of the NPCs didn't have at least one chapter somewhere that struggles - no matter how strong nationally, or regionally. (All of them have had chapters close.) Many of us have seen a chapter go from being a top one to being in the middle or below in the space of 5 years or so. I think often there is a "perfect storm" - a lack of alumnae leadership, a bad pledge class or two, actives who give up - and you've got low numbers. Once you have low numbers, it is MUCH harder to compete against other chapters, simply because when pnms walk in the room they wonder why this chapter is smaller. Combine that with tent talk, and you have a chapter in the death spiral.

I'm not sure why he listed tradition and connections as separate things, unless he meant present connections with well placed fraternities, but I think his triad explains a lot on southern competitive campuses if that's what he meant.

But it may not explain the present status of a struggling chapter so much as what may have taken place a couple of years ago before anyone who is even in the chapter pledged.

And, conversely, chapters which are doing well can take more risks. I remember one pnm who was a double legacy to us and the top chapter at our campus. She was nicknamed "Ape" - she really did have the unibrow working, and was overweight and very unpleasant. We cut her (I think that's what she was trying to have us do by being so rude) and were shocked when she ended up a pledge to the top chapter. But hey - they could afford to have a pledge or two who was, shall we say, aesthetically challenged.

One of my pet peeves is the kind of trash talk that fellow Greeks engage in - whether fraternity or sorority - when a chapter is struggling. I know it's tough when you are 18 - 22 years old to rise above it, but the fact of the matter is a strong Greek system benefits EVERYONE - and the failure of a chapter affects the entire system. Sigh. That's my personal windmill that I tilt at occasionally.

I couldn't agree with you more. I think that was what UGAalum94 meant. Unless you sit at the very top on a campus, every chapter has to be careful that they have it all together beginning with alumnae advisors who get it and understand the campus environment. A positive Panhellenic doesn't hurt either unfortunately sometimes you have to work with what you've got.

Yep. But I think, especially with fraternities, they enjoy influencing the sorority hierarchy because in turn they can have more status, and when your 18-22, relative group status is kind of a big deal.

We can't forget what we're dealing with.

(I think status remains a really big deal for some people, but I think as you age, you just worry about who you are and don't enjoy your group being a bigger deal than another group.)

HAts off to you UGAalum - your comments were spot on!

On a campus like the U of Arkansas, the tradition and reputation of the top houses is set in stone. They would have to get in major national news type trouble with the law, or something like that to adversely affect their houses' reputations enought to seriously hurt their recruitment.

The less strong houses are, as you so aptly described, more susceptible to a negative image, bad recruitment class, etc. because their position is more precarious.

As far as tent talk, etc. even with the strong houses, there is trash talk about them but it does very little to negatively affect them because the reputation is so strong around the state. Even people (hs girls) not affiliated with the university are aware of which houses are traditionally the strongest.

Ehh...yes and no. Sometimes, having one weak chapter will boost other chapters. As was said before, if one chapter is weak and then gone, as soon as they leave another chapter is the 'bottom' chapter. There is NO way to have a system where every chapter is equal.

Yes, women have come a long way but you are so right, the guys still like to control and the girls follow.

I think it may be getting worse as some campuses get to be almost 60% female overall with a higher percentage of Greeks among women than men.

If socially "desirable" guys are seen as scarce, women can do stupid things to each other if they don't reflect on their values.

Yes, women have come a long way. Yes, guys still like to control. But not all girls like to follow, and many women prefer to lead.

Said like a true University of Kentucky Sorority woman! ;)

I certainly hope this is the case.

Do y'all feel that a fraternity chapter(s) can influence (control) a sorority's status that much?

It just depends on the nature of the particular systems.
In a system that prides itself on "southern tradition," I think certain fraternities can.

I doubt that a traditionally solid chapter could be destroyed or something like that.

But if you made a list of sorority chapters by first round return rates, I think that four or five elitist fraternities deciding not to associate with the bottom third of this list could keep those groups from ever having an easy time of it in recruitment. If, on the other hand, the same fraternities elected to have socials with and regard and talk about those groups as worthy and desirable, I think the groups would be seen by PNMs are worthy and desirable.

Some of it's the guys' opinions; most of it's the girls caring what the guys think.

I'd agree that there wouldn't ever be a Panhellenic community of 3 or more chapters where every chapter is perceived as "equal" socially. However, with regards to achievement, I think it would be much easier to find several campuses where all chapters are equal (or pretty darn close) in their achievement in recruitment (yes, there are campuses where every group takes quota), scholarship, campus involvement, leadership, service/philanthropy etc. Elon comes to mind. Although there are chapters that are perceived as "higher up on the social ladder," they are all very high-achieving chapters in good standing with their respective HQs.

Also, the issue of how "toxic" a Greek community is comes into play as to how close a Panhellenic community can come to equality. There are campuses where there is a "tier" system, but it's not talked about much, members of different chapters are friendly with one another, there aren't bitter "rivalries" between or among chapters, and there is a general Panhellenic spirit. There are also campuses where the sororities love to trash the bottom group until they fold, and then they choose the next victim.

I think with the new release method we are seeing more campuses where the chapters are equal in number. Of course they will all have varying degrees of popularity with fraternities, perceived status, etc. But the more houses you have, the more opportunities you offer for a pnm to fit in, and the higher percentage of GLO members you can have on your campus. That's what I meant by a strong system - not that all groups are perceived as "top tier", but that all groups can obtain a size large enough to continue to operate.

This was exactly what happened...

I wasn't going to spell it out completely but certain decisions such as this...a certain girl was in question for a very long time...they finally voted her in.

With a lack of tradition and poor decision making, it will eventually sink this chapter here in a year or two.

I forgot to address this:
Is that in Arizona? Then it's not a Southern fraternity. The stuff that you know about sororities...doesn't really matter to Southern sororities. Some stuff is correct, to be sure but it's another world in my opinion.

I doubt my cousin "broke any chapter rules" by telling me what was going on in the voting by telling me about something that happened four or five years previous to her telling me, and her being out of college for at least two years after she told me. If she did break rules on such a past event, I don't think it matters.

i have seen it happen. college guys meet incoming freshmen girls and decide to give them the 4 1 1 on which sorority they think they should pledge. some girls, either because they want to impress the guy, or think that he, being a college guy, knows it all, or for some other reason, takes what the guy says to heart and decides it is abc, def , ghi or nothing. she also shares this information with her friends and with her rush group.

the guys don't take in to consideration that the girl may not fit in with the recommended sororities or that she might not be deemed bid-worthy by the top tier sororities-his fraternity may not even be able to get a social with those sororities, but he will still recommend them. don't know why guys care, except that it makes them seem in the know. hopefully, most girls won't heed the advice, but the seed has been planted and it is hard for young women, eager to get into the college social scene, to ignore.

Most of the time these guys that tell women to join the "hottest" sorority are underclassmen, in my experience. By the time they get to be juniors or seniors, they aren't quite as shallow (or have gotten shafted by the "hot" sisters) and give better advice.

Not only that...if it's a guy telling his girlfriend that, the last thing he's thinking of is her...he wants to impress everyone with the fact that he's dating an XYZ.

I think its important to cultivate positive relationships with all the fraternities on your campus, but whether or not you want to focus all your effort on what the XYs think, I'm not so sure it matters that much.

On my campus all the sororities were roughly equal in size, but only 3-4 out of 10 or so fraternities had memberships equal to the sororities. The biggest fraternities were the most popular to have an exchange with, but they couldn't have 7 exchanges every semester. So there was some competition amongst the sororities to lock up a social with those groups.

One of my vivid memories is my roommate the Social chair jumping up and down trying to get everyone psyched up to try to get a social with the XYs...and about half the chapter responding with "Yes! We need to have a social with XY!!" and half the chapter responding "Who cares about XY! I'm dating an AB" or "My boyfriend's not in a fraternity. Let's have another date party!"

EW - Texas, not Arizona. Currently in Tennessee. I've visited Arizona, but never lived there. Heck, I thought my screen name might give you a head's up. Or a quick look at my postings. Whatever. You really shouldn't comment on what I might or might not know about southern sorority rush without doing a little research. That would mean knowing where I got my undergraduate degree, and my graduate, and where I was an advisor, where I've had sorority training, which Alumnae Panhellenics I was active in, and which chapters of other NPCs I've helped on which campuses. Whew. And let me point out the op on this thread has NOTHING to do with north, south, east and west.

And now that I've been clued into a little more about you, I really don't think I'm interested in proving anything to you. Those whose opinion I care about here know enough about me, and you - well, I think your screen name is most appropriate. So let's just drop the personal bickering here and get back on topic.

BACK ON TOPIC - The inability to mix with some fraternities is a real problem for struggling chapters. Fraternities hold a lot of sway with the ability to mix, and all other considerations aside, a fraternity chapter of 80+ is not going to be interested in having a mixer with a sorority of 20 - 30. PNMs going through rush will notice social pictures during recruitment - again, contributing to the inability of the group to successfully recruit enough quality pledges to turn it around.
It's amazing how who you date can impact a sorority's abilitly to mix with certain fraternities. If you are dating the right member (or members if we are talking about several girls) you may well be able to plan a social event with a fraternity you might otherwise not get to - but that's a very singular situation.
One change for the better I've noticed since I was an active back when dinosaurs roamed the earth is there are more sorority sponsored social events - so instead of having to wait for a fraternity to invite you the sororities are throwing more of their own events. This can result in good p.r. with a variety of fraternities - if you have a cross-section of fraternity men invited, and they get to see the sorority sisters in a good light it can help with their perception. I know of at least one instance when a non-top tier sorority ended up having a mixer with a top tier fraternity simply because several of the fraternity members had been at a sorority event and had a really good time. That's the kind of thing that can help build momentum in changing a chapter's reputation.
One of the toughest things to fight is the feeling of defeatism a poor recruitment can give a chapter.

[quote=SWTXBelle;1608578]BACK ON TOPIC - The inability to mix with some fraternities is a real problem for struggling chapters. Fraternities hold a lot of sway with the ability to mix, and all other considerations aside, a fraternity chapter of 80+ is not going to be interested in having a mixer with a sorority of 20 - 30. PNMs going through rush will notice social pictures during recruitment - again, contributing to the inability of the group to successfully recruit enough quality pledges to turn it around.quote]

That is so true it is really awkward when a sorority is trying to have a social with a fraternity and only 15 of the girls show up and 30 guys come. Also you would be surprise how big of an impact fraternities have on recruitment. For instance, this year the " least popular" sorority had a really bad recruitment this year mainly due to a problem they had with the most popular fraternity. The guys invited a lot of pnms to a party before rush started and told a lot of the girls what ever you do dont pledge the "least popular" sorority. Of course girls are going to listen to these guys. Although the guys may not have meant any harm it didnt help that sorority's appeal to pnms. A lot of pnms were crying if they got a bid from the "least popular" sorority.

I have a question - what if there is a situation where you have a "top" house who has taken a lesser pledge class (I think the term that the fraternities use is, "There are a lot of legacies in that pledge class."):rolleyes: Do you think that this can detrimentally effect the status of being on "top"?

Southwest Texas is Arizona...hardly real Texas or Southern. Mind as well be Mexico, actually. I read SWTx and then looked up the Theta Tau chapter of Sigma Chi and it was only talking about Arizona State.

So again, you're not necessarily qualified to talk about something which is not on your radar screen or shoot my opinions down. Southern greek life is simply different. Texas State is not Southern. Unless you mean like Mexico. Then, yes it's very Southern. Texas States' KA chapter is home to Scott Grifo, but that's about as far as it goes.

Not really...in fact the term "there are alot of legacies in that pledge class" means that they don't ever expect that from the sorority and would continue having functions with them regardless of their looks...they're still a top sorority. It still looks good to have their letters with yours on the back of a shirt. Perhaps a continued poor rush could spell disaster but certainly not one....you would need at least four years of very poor rush to bring a top house down. And that just doesn't happen.

To the topic at hand,

Fraternities opinion is hard to come by when rush was before school. Now that it is after school starts, it matters alot more. The sorority which I was discussing previously happened to take a girl who was not up to....fraternity traditional standards, to put it nicely. I'm not specifically talking about looks. It drove away fraternities from having partys because no one wanted to have a party with that sort of girl. Rumor spread of this girl and things went downhill from there. My fraternity and sorority friends who went to school at the time acknowledge this.

I think that it is an unfortunate truth that while one bad pledge class can sink a lower-status sorority, it really won't affect a higher-status one. I can think of one pledge of the top sorority on my campus who we cut - she was fat, ugly and rude. Her nickname was "Ape" - she had the whole unibrow thing working. But her being a member of the top sorority didn't hurt her group at all - she was indeed a legacy, and they were strong enough (in terms of numbers) to be able to absorb a few not-so-great pledges. 6 "bad" pledges don't show up in a pledge class of 30 - 40 the way they do in one of 10 - 15.


eta - It's a shame Tennessee is no longer in the south. I'll inform my APH . . . .

As to the first thing - that's what double and triple mixers are for.

As far as sorority sponsored social activities (this is back in dino times as well), we used to hold a bid day party instead of having a bid day mixer (i.e. the sisters & PNMs could invite anyone special, instead of just being at a mixer w/ fraternity guys you never met who mean nothing to you) and we held our own parties and happy hours at our house often. The other sororities did the same thing. This is one of the reasons I hate and resent the dry policies NPC imposes - it doesn't give the sororities any ability to create their own social space. They have to rely on the guys.

So this is one girl who is (insert hideous social deformity of your choice here) - would they really not want to party with the WHOLE sorority, even if the rest of the sorority was hot and awesome and fun? I mean, didn't y'all ever see that M*A*S*H* episode where they drew straws and the loser had to take out the klutzy girl? Couldn't you do that?

Or are you trying to say that the girl in question was working the other side of the hot dog stand? Guys, your mojo will not go limp because there happens to be a lesbian in the room.

I mean, if we had refused to mix with this or that fraternity because of ONE a-hole, we would have never had mixers.

Oh boy. I guess I am guilty... well sort of. Over the summer before my sophomore year, I was asked by five incoming female freshmen (fresh-women? fresh-people?) from my high school about the chapters at UK. (At different times - I was kind of speaking more like their big brother because at the time, not many from my high school went to The University of Kentucky)

In my defense, I really don't think I ever said one negative thing about any chapter. However, I am fairly certain that I would have spoken "more highly" of some chapters - especially ones that I would have had personal experience with from the previous year. (i.e. mixers with etc.) Most likely, I regurgitated superficial data like "last year's homecoming queen is an ABC" or "there are two XYZs cheerleaders". I am happy to report that "my girls" (all of which were part of the same friendship/social circle as it were) made their decisions based on what was best for them. Between the five of them, they pledged four different chapters. I would say they were all good fits with their chapters. And that all five of them are still friends to this day.

I totally agree. What I told my friends (the summer between my freshman and sophomore years) was based on my own personal - and at that time - limited experience and observations.

And just for the record, I was never shafted by the "hot" (or hot-challenged) sisters :cool:

I think this may be where I have been questing the sway that fraternities (in general) might have. When I was at UK, (and I think it is still the case now) most of the sororities had more members per chapter than most of the fraternities. With there being 22 fraternities and 13 sororities, it was "easier" for every sorority to be "matched" with a fraternity at any given time.

I would add that it isn't just who you date, but also who you (i.e. members of the chapter) know socially. Generally speaking, the more friendships (contacts) chapter members have with members of other chapters, the more "popular" that chapter is viewed.

I think this happens with Sigma Chi chapters because of our Derby Days. Generally speaking, we are exposed to all the sorority chapters in a fun and social way. The same can be said for any sorority or fraternity that hosts a Greek wide event. Simply put, the more positive exposure you have with more chapters, then a more likely "better" (for lack of a better word) social standing.

33girl, you've made me laugh - and were it not so cliche, I would tell you about almost spitting diet Coke on my keyboard.

Stupid.

I'll spell it out for you...

She was a certain race which one does not usually associate oneself with in social occasions.

Jesus christ.

Oh, I'm sorry.

That didn't even come to my mind. Probably because I'm not a racist asshole.

That's a different M*A*S*H* episode - where the guy wants to make sure he gets the "right color" blood.

Funny?

No, not really. It's unfortunate it happens.

But this is the South...where tradition matters (as I have said over and over again). Where the appropriate rush/pledging tactics can set you up or pull your chapter eventually. They were idiots about this and it turned out poorly for them.

ok, I'm asking this, SERIOUSLY.

If Beyonce Knowles came through rush at your school, and an NPC sorority pledged her, would they be shunned socially?

No one is proud that this still happens on campuses but it does and unfortunately it is going to take a top group on a campus with enough guts to say "enough" and break this cycle. It's called follow the leader.

Holy effing crap EW. And to think I was giving you a little credit in this thread because, like it or not, men do play a more important role then we'd like to admit in the recruitment process.

But bringing the thread back to race? Either (A) southern greeks truly are all racist elitists (Like EW) or (B) southern greeks need to stop pledging loud-mouthed racist elitists like you in order to evolve into what brotherhood and sisterhood is supposed to stand for.

I'm all for internet-anonymity most of the time, but when it allows a racist pig like EW to feel comfortable enough to share his views about membership recruitment in order to WARN women that admitting minorities could be the downfall of their chapter... that's where I tend to draw the line. At some point, sharing your out-dated opinions becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and if you really cared about being a part of society that thought of people in terms other than race, you'd keep these thoughts to yourself and stand up to the racist bastards around you who still think it is okay to judge others based on their race.

Wow. What years was she active? Pretty progressive for an Arkansas chapter.

I agree. It is just too bad that too many guys like EW are following instead of leading.

So much for race being a card that doesn't matter as long as people are of a certain background and uphold certain values and standards. :)