True, but given his other posts, I assume he was talking about the Vietnam War and the accompanying Question Authority/Down With Tradition/Never Trust Anyone Over 30 sentiments that caused a significant decline in Greekdom in the late 1960s and early 1970s.

Ehh. Overrated. There were still people joining fraternities and sororities, fraternities and sororities just became a different thing for different people (i.e. there were hippies in them). Plus, this really depends what schools you're talking about. Look at some of the smaller state schools in the late 60s and early 70s and you'll see fairly large chapters - because the people going there, for the first time, had the funds to afford it. My school chartered 4 Greek chapters in 1966-1967 (3 of which are still there) so obviously our system wasn't declining.

I just don't think "big membership and big new house" instantly equals "awesome Greek experience," so IMO, the whole discussion is flawed.

The point is that based on his other posts in other threads, I think when he said "meltdown," he was referring to anti-tradition student movement/mentality in general rather than to the civil rights movement. Whether you think he has correctly identified the effects that late 60s-early 70s student movement/mentality is a different discussion.
I agree completely.

Is it because colleges in the South (public and private) are willing to provide land for GLOs to build on? They obviously see that social orgs are a draw for students. I see a lot of articles out here about growing campuses that want to add Greek life because they know that it is a draw for some students, but I doubt we'll ever see another public campus in Calif providing land for building Greek housing. (The newest on campus Greek housing I know of is at UC Irvine. and that's unusual because most Greek housing in CA is privately owned. off campus.) The cost of the land is astronomical compared to the cost of building a house. So I don't know if we'll ever see any new Greek housing here, despite rising enrollments and growth in membership, esp at schools like CSULB, SDSU, UCSB etc.

He was probably referring to the hippie/ drug/ anti-war movement.

Like I said, those things don't necessarily mean that people weren't in fraternities.

No argument -- the point was only as to why the comment "You call it a meltdown, we call it the civil rights movement" didn't fit. He wasn't talking about the Civil Rights movement.

well, I think that had something to do with it, when big chapters at big Northern private schools are turning in their charters over white clauses.

While I agree the whole basis of this question/argument is flawed, I can see that the above may be a good point about housing for greeks in the north. There just isn't a lot of room for new building around a lot of the big schools up north, so building a "grand" new fraternity or sorority house just may not be possible space- (or zoning) wise. I remember at Penn State, where sororities are in the dorms, space was already so tight that when they brought new chapters on campus, they had to stick them up in East Halls. The FRESHMAN dorms -- agh!!

No one's arguing with the effects, pro or con, of the civil rights movement on Greek life. We're just saying that when oldu referred to "the meltdown of the late 1960s," we don't think he wasn't talking about the civil rights movement. Therefore, your statement "You call it a meltdown, we call it the civil rights movement" didn't really fit.

oh, OK. I guess I'm a little slow today. either that, or a little snarky.

I grew up in the Midwest, primarily Illinois and graduated from the UofI. I moved to Alabama 14 years ago. I've been amazed at the cultural differences in Greek life from the Midwest/Big 10 and the South/SEC. I've read through all the opinions here explaining why and have agreed with many. Love of tradition certainly plays a part of it, but it's more than that. Yet I can't find the words to fully explain it.

I remember a conversation I had with one of my brothers years ago. He's a Pike, also from the UofI and was living in Chicago at the time. I had just survived the exhausting weeks of Recruitment workshop and Formal Recruitment. I was physically and emotionally exhausted, which is the norm. He asked a reasonable question "What exactly do you do there? Why is it so hard? You're just an advisor. It's just Rush. It's just a sorority." There is no easy way to explain it. Even when I explained what all I did, he still didn't get it. Years have passed since then and I still can't explain it. I've come to realize until/unless you experience it firsthand, it's nearly impossible to comprehend.

Hi.

Theta Phi Alpha is one of the 26 NPC sororities. I know we may not be as well represented in Florida as in some other areas, but we do have a few chapters down that way and there are several of us who post on GC regularly. Normally, I'd launch into everything it's done for me, but I suspect it would be falling on deaf ears since I don't have any personal anecdotes of cutting based on looks or a misguided conception of "class" to share with FRATTY.

Anyway, sorry to re-start the hijack. Back on topic....

ETA: Despite my Yankee upbringing and a fairly strong hunch I wouldn't have survived an SEC rush, I find the differences very interesting and as some other poster indicated, I think it's nice that Greek life can operate in different ways for different people.

It's one thing not to know - it's another to post your ignorance in public without going to the trouble of, oh, I don't know, using the internet to check it out.

Yes. That's what I was getting at too. You just expressed it much better than I did :)

Thank you! That deserves to be repeated.

I don't think he was attacking Theta Phi Alpha- VandalSquirrel just gave a response that made her seem all victimized or something.

I don't think he neccessarily was "attacking" either. But, based on his history of dismissing groups that aren't sufficiently fratty or lacking his perception of "class," I decided I'd err on the side of speaking up for my GLO.

Interesting, because it was the late 60s early 70s during which BGLOs grew in leaps and bounds. New chapters we being chartered all over the place.

This whole thread is interesting to me and very informative. I will say that BGLOs are "hot" everywhere. Granted there are more chapters of orgs in the South, but that is due to the number of HBCUs located there.

BGLOs have always played a vital part in the Black community so knowledge and interest is not geographically skewed. Many of our leaders during the civil rights movement were member of BGLOs (which could partly explain the surge during that time.) I also think that our alumni(ae) structure plays a big part in the universal appeal, because we have never been thought of as just a collegiate activity. And did our Founders did not intend for that to be the case.

Yep and I touched on some of this in that "worst of times" thread.

It's all about southern culture and tradition. Growing up, I was always aware of the organizations my relatives and the people around me were members of. All of the adults I knew were Greek, and it was still important to them no matter what their age. It's ingrained as a part of who you are here. I think the thing that people who weren't raised in the south don't get is how deeply ingrained being Greek is in this society. Sure, lots of alumni/ae throughout the country remain very involved with their organization throughout their lifetime. But here it is part of what defines who you are. A good example I can give is if you are meeting someone new, no matter what age either of you are, part of that initial introduction will include something like "Mary's an XYZ" before you even find out where someone is from or what school they attended. Although I am sure this happens other places, particularly if someone knows you are both Greek and assumes you'll have that in common, here it's just a typical and immediate part of social networking.

I have lived in the South all of my life and I come from a family and background where Greek connections are common, and I don't think I have ever experienced what you describe.

Everyone around here knows that the first thing that gets mentioned when you're introduced are where you're from and who your people are.

It's a part of southern culture and tradition in some, i.e., moneyed, circles. Everyone in the South is not raised this way.

I grew up as blue collar and country as you can imagine. I was the first person in my family to go to college. I went to a tiny high school and knew absolutely no one who was Greek during their college days. There may have been some, but it wasn't talked about. I attended a small state university and went Greek as a sophomore, not because I'd been "groomed" for it my whole life, but because student life as a whole sucked at my school, and I thought it'd be fun.

It's not just people from the North who can't imagine being Greek defining your whole life. We poor Southerners can't imagine it, either.

LadyLonghorn, how do you feel southern culture/tradition as it relates to the importance of greek afffiliation is being influenced today by the migration of people from other parts of the country to the southern states? will these traditions become more insular, separating people raised in the South from those who were not, or will Southerners become more open? btw, I've always thought of my Texas relatives as incredibly hospitible. They love their state and they are glad to share it!

About 10-12 years ago, young college grads who couldn't afford to live in Calif were moving off to Colorado, AZ and Oregon for cheaper housing and job opptys. Today I'm seeing tons of young people from here headed for TX, FL and Arkansas. Just wondering how you think they'll influence the greek social networking culture as they settle in and become part of the larger community.

LadyLonghorn is right about introductions and people knowing your greek affiliation. I find it kind of funny to be at an event and have somebody say, "This is @, she's a pi phi." I'm 44 years old!!! I know I'm still a pi phi, but, I'm also a wife, a mom, a business woman, etc.

I did move back, and am raising my family, in the same neighborhood where I grew up though, so everybody knows everybody's business. I guess greek affiliation is just one way to differentiate us from each other.

What types of events are these and are these people who only know you within an organizational or college-educated context?

That makes a lot of difference.

A recent opinion piece from the student paper at a (more or less Northern, not especially large) college about Greek life and its connection to other social opportunities at that school:

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2008/02/13/20067/

The opinion piece is favorable to Greek life.

Terminology note: "Bicker clubs," as I understand it, are the eating clubs whose membership is by invitation only. For recent statistics on these selective clubs, check out:

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2008/02/11/20033/

Just a reminder that individual Northern schools can have their own sets of traditions that may mystify other people.

Could be lunch with friends at Cafe Express - usually around the time when people are looking for recs. This makes sense.

Could be at a luncheon or dinner with people my age that I don't know. People will ask, "What college did you go to? What sorority were you in?" Then when you are next introduced, it's the "This is @ she was a * at ***" It is a mark you carry forever, haha.

I just think it's kind of funny. But, I also think it is funny that women my age will greet each other with big hugs like long lost friends when they just saw each other earlier at the gym. I guess I'm just a cynic.:)

Well, these make sense. They aren't random Greek inquiries and references.

So, on that note, I still believe that a lot of these Southern differences are exaggerated. People reference Greekdom in the North all the time when the context permits.

I find it funny that so many people on this site feel this way. It seems the majority who do so are from the North, where small chapters and houses seem to be the norm.

Not to criticize those schools, but let me just explain how it is at Texas. The largest chapters tend to be the ones that have the most expensive dues. Even then, the number of men who want to join those chapters is so great that they are able to be extremely selective in who they take. This allows those houses to take pledges classes of 40-50, all of which are quality guys. With a chapter that size, and with dues that high, this means a lot of money for the chapter. More money means bigger nicer houses, huge parties, and a more notable presence on campus. With that presence comes recognition from the rest of the student body. Saying "I'm a Fiji/SAE/Sig Ep" carries a lot more weight than "oh ya I'm in Alpha Beta [insert random greek letter]". And of course, there's always the alumni factor. A chapters that's had a large presense on campus for decades will help much more than some guys who colonized a few years back and live in a converted duplex.


In the end, I'm not saying the small northern chapters aren't 'good' at what they do. I just think that the two different types of chapters we're discussing have different goals, and that should be taken into consideration.

I guess Fratty hasn't learned how to Google. That's right, he skipped class to go to a rush party

I like small Southern chapters. :)

Let's put this into perspective. Comments were not made on pledge classes of 40-50. They were made on pledge classes of 80-90 and house totals of 200 - 300.

I bolded that for you. I'm also sorry that you didn't bother to use Google.

I am a victim, a victim of other people's ignorance and lack of research skills. But it is the hands you shake, not the grades you make.

I did take the time to google it. The only chapters in the South were in Florida, Louisiana, and one in Texas, all at very small schools not known for their greek life, so not knowing what sorority that was is understandable. When we think sorority, we think tri-delt, chi-o, zeta, pi phi, kappa, theta, the ones that have national name recognition.

At least you googled it, but seriously, just because (general you) don't know about doesn't mean it doesn't have worth or value. I've never met a member of Alpha Delta Phi but I know about them (as well as the other 25 other NPC sororities and NPHC groups) because I had a complete fraternity education that included learning about the history of greek life beyond my campus. That knowledge might be useful while applying for a job or in other social situations. If an interviewer has some paraphenalia of a group and I recognize it, that may be the hand shaking that puts me above the other people who were also grade making.

I have to say that ALL NPCs have "national name recognition". There are only 26 of them, after all. Just because a GLO isn't on your campus, or even big in your geographic area, doesn't mean they aren't important. It's rather dismissive to say the only glos that matter are the ones you know.
Like Vandal Squirrel, I think it is important to know all the members of your GLO umbrella group - and others, as well. Heck, you don't even have to google it - just go to www.npcwomen.org .

Agreed. Prime example that happened here semi-recently. I corrected a collegian on the proper pronunciation of Alpha Phi. She had never heard of them and asked "Are they new?" :eek: (Man, I hate these 6 week pledgeships.)

how many paddles did the wrong answer earn her?