I live with the guy, but we have separate bedrooms. We are people who recognize that we need our own space, plus our sleep habits and closets are not compatible to sharing a bedroom. Of course we didn't need to live together to figure out that, but we were tired of crap roommates and we're making it work.

There you go TWIN, I quoted it for you.:) My views are straight from PeppyGPhiB's and KSUViolet mouths. If you ask the right questions and are around each other then you'll begin to truly know each other and their 'quirks'. Once I have the proposal and REAL plans are underway (read: Not "oh we're going to get married in a couple years", Not "I think that's the path we're headed" But Julie is our wedding planner. Venue is the church. This is the date.) then I'm all about moving in and living together. If it happens before then, I think folks can get too comfortable in 'playing house' and feel a false sense of security c) ladies who move in and give up their everything only to find out that it doesn't work.

<--- strong advocate of pre-marital counseling, marriage renewal retreats & partner prayer. :cool:

I agree! Sleeping over on weekends wouldn't make me comfortable enough to fart in front of him, ya know? Gross, but true.:o

TRUE!!! lol....I've been with BF for almost 5 years and just wont be comfortable doing that in front of him.

Trust issues are the WORST reason to move in together. If you don't trust eachother, BREAK UP - don't monitor eachother's activity. That doesn't build trust, it builds resentment and MORE distrust.

Most cohabitated couples won't last.

Moving in together and planning a 2011 wedding is basically a guarantee that there will be no wedding. If the wedding can wait a few more years, so should living together.

I wonder if there would have been a way to foresee it living together but without the additional stress of mortgage and children? I don't know.

I see your point, but I think the example you give is not a problem with pre-marital counseling but, noting the part of your quite I bolded, with him. He wasn't honest with you or with whoever was doing the counseling (or perhaps with himself). Whether it's pre-marital counseling, living together or marriage, you only get out of it what you and he put into it.

I know that with our pre-marital counseling (required by the church before we could be married), we had to do quite a few personality inventories and the like. We were just discussing last week, after 19 years of marriage, how the "danger areas" identified in our pre-marital counseling really are the areas that have been most challenging for us over the years.

I was going to say if Dee & her hubby had lived together, they would have probably had the same problems unless they kept their finances entirely separate.

Pretty much, look at how your SO's parents handle money...and you'll get a good preview of how he/she will do so. That's one lesson I fortunately learned very early.

Jocelyn, there's no way in hell your friend's going to get married, and if she does, no way it'll last 6 months. "Prodding" does not lead to successful marriages.

My law practice will probably be majority family law. That said, I am thrilled about the trend where people move in together prior to marriage, have babies, and quickly get divorced. I am even more thrilled that most of these people don't learn that this is not smart the first time they do it.

That said, my wife, who at the time, I had been with for 5 years, moved in with me a year prior to our wedding. For us, it worked. For anyone else? The statistics seem to point out that your chances of a successful relationship at that point are decreased.

-- but what is your goal? A long term relationship? Or a roommate who shares your bed?

Kevin is waiting to cash everyone's checks. :(

But on a more socially significant note, this says a lot about family breakdown and the impact on children (if there are any).

You have my sympathy. :D

In isn't that bad. We did have a client commit suicide this week, but it's been an unusually bad week.

Yikes. I just don't have domestic law in me.

OK, if you (not you personally lilsunshine, I'm talking to anyone/everyone) are still at the point in your relationship where you feel you must straighten up the whole apartment before your bf/gf comes over, you are NOT ready to move in with him/her. That would be a sign to me that I wasn't comfortable enough with him yet, or for some reason I didn't think he would accept any flaws. Unless that's the way you usually keep your apartment, it's a facade, and there are obviously problems with the relationship if you feel you must keep the facade up.

Again, I KNOW my boyfriend and certainly know how he keeps his apartment. I know he keeps every knicknack given to him and that he doesn't load his dishes into the dishwasher in a timely manner. And I don't need to live with him full time to know that stuff. I also don't need to live with him to know how he manages his finances, because we TALK about that kind of stuff. I know how much money he makes and how much his bills cost, and I even know how much he puts in his 401k...and we didn't have to move in together to learn that stuff.

My point is that before you move in with someone, you should already know all this stuff about them. If you're not at the point in your relationship where you feel comfortable being yourself around him/her, you're either not ready yet or that person isn't the right person for you.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but isn't that the polite thing to do? If you're not living with your significant other, then when they visit, you're having company over. Maybe it's just me, but I clean up for everyone...my friends, significant other, parents, etc., and I hardly think thats a sign of "obvious problems with the relationship."

There's a difference between having the place looking presentable, and having it so clean you could eat off the floor. I mean, I don't think a cup and saucer in the sink or an unmade bed is something you should feel you need to "hide" from a longtime boyfriend/girlfriend. Some people are neater than others, but if it's at the point where you're saying you don't want him to come over because the house isn't perfect, THAT means you have relationship problems.

^^^
Ahhhh...got it.

That was well-worded and I agree with you.

I feel alot of times the best way to approach the situation is life cicumstance. If you both graduate college and get jobs in the same town but can't move in with family it might be a good idea to move in together. Or your planning to get married and want to save money for the wedding. This way you are living with eachother for personal growth not to make or break the relationship and not because you feel it is a necessary step.

However, I agree that moving in together because you want your relationship to go to the next step is not the answer. After you move in together whats next? Marriage, why not wait the few months, this puts unneeded pressure on the relationship to get married. MysticCat made the point that statistics show that people who move in together are more likely to get diviorced. I think the reason this is so true is that after moving in with someone; people feel the pressure to get engaged and get married even though it might not be the right time or right thing for them to do.

I think this whole deal about "statistics" proving people who live together before getting married makes them more likely to divorce is right up there with people believing that more people have pre-marital sex now than they did 50 years ago. A recent, very well conducted survey of people aged 12-90-ish proved that more than 80% of people had pre-marital sex. We want to think that being virgins until marriage is the way things are supposed to be, but it's a fantasy. Now no one jump down my throat, I know there are people who do this, but they are a minority.
My husband and I practically moved in with each other the second we started dating. We'd known each other for about six months by that point. We did everything that people say not to do. He was on my checking account by six months into the relationship. We shared everything, so it was easier. Our only real problem with the arrangement came when I made the mistake of telling my parents about six months prior to our wedding. I had phone calls three times a day from my parents all worried about my "relationship with God!" Anyway, for us, living together before marriage was fine. We'd made the commitment to each other long ago. My husband made the choice to do his residency where we went to med school since I was already in a residency there. He could have gone to any top Med/Peds program in the country. Our wedding was simple but memorable. No, marriage was not some big thing that changed our lives. Our relationship did that, and I'm glad the marriage certificate is just a document to officialize the bond that we sealed two years earlier. The key to keep it going after that is to keep talking, forgiving and learning (and not having kids! That tends to put a huge strain on most marriages, IMHO. Of course, procreation is necessary for the human race so if you do it, work extra hard at the talking, forgiving and learning stuff!)

Are you saying that the stats are assigning causal value to cohabitation while a third variable may have more explanatory power?

You and your husband are more of the exception than the rule. But wait...was this intro a petition for you and your husband being considered more of the rule than everyone thinks? :confused: Surely you don't really believe that.

My husband and I moved in together when we got engaged. It was more out of necessity. The fact of the matter is, however, we viewed our engagement as the lifelong commitment and the ceremony as a nice touch. I think if you go into it with the idea "if it doesn't work out, then...", more than likely you will be the statistic that involves a breakup.

We also went through pre-cana. That was a great class!-of course, out of around 20 couples, I think only 1 didn't live together.

In reference to my example.. many of our issues were related to the fact that he had never been on his own in any way prior to our marriage. He had a huge lack of experience at life. I think he believed that he would handle things a certain way but, having never been in that situation before, he reacted differently. When someone else is cleaning your room/house for that guy, there's no way to know what a slob he will truly be. And, I'm not totally blaming him either. He simply lacked experience.

MysticCat.. I was married in the Catholic church both times (annulled the first marriage) and went through their whole pre-marital counseling thing both times. With the first one, the questionairres identified that there was a potential for abuse from my (then) fiance. He and the priest decided that it came up because I was too sensitive and took things too seriously and, since the priest said that (and I was young without much self esteem), I believed him. He was the pre-marital expert after all! That guy ended up being very abusive.

Not being defensive here, just pointing out that there is no failproof method when it comes to all of this. I think you have to do what is right for you at that point in your life.

I also think I have a different perspective now that I'm in my 40's and am done having children. I really don't see, no matter how much I might end up loving someone in the future, any reason to get married. But hey, I'm also the first to admit that I'm jaded!

ETA: I was screwed over so badly financially twice now that I will never ever ever combine my finances with someone else again!

I'm not even talking about that type of stuff - finances, etc... My parents have been married for 30 years and they still fight about how to fold the towels - it's little things like that. Maybe it's because we're in a LDR, but I had no idea that my boyfriend worked until 11 almost every night because I didn't ask him where he was when I called him - but I sure noticed he wasn't home all the nights I ate dinner by myself. I also didn't know he was incapable of putting dirty laundry in a hamper, because on the weekends when I'd come to visit it all magically made it in there.

It didn't make or break our relationship, but I'm glad we got a lot of the petty little fights out of the way now because I think it would make your first year of marriage a little more stressful to have them then.

^^^^that's what I'm saying....forshizzel!! Otherwise...Just Say No!

I normally just lurk here, but this has been such an interesting discussion on both sides I felt I had to jump in. Sorry for the length.

AOII Angel, I too am dubious about these "statistics." Firstly do these studies actually exist and if so, what was the methodology? Secondly, if these stories are true, I suspect these cases are couples who were already having problems in the first place and thought getting married would solve their issues, rather than exacerbate them. Or, as others have mentioned, they felt pressured into it and weren't ready.

I can totally understand people that don't want to live with someone until a ring is on that finger. I think for the most part, if getting married is your goal, then waiting until you're engaged might be a good policy to follow.

For me however, I have been living with someone for 12 years now. Most people don't know we're not officially married as we own two homes, wear rings, and refer to each other as husband and wife. At one point I contemplated leaving him (not because of not being married) and no, it wouldn't have been as simple as packing a bag and physically leaving.

Why aren't we married by now? I don't know, it doesn't seem necessary. It wouldn't make us any more committed than we already are. I never saw myself as the kind that would flout convention, but here I am. When we started living together we weren't sure if our paths were going to come together because we were both trying to establish our careers. We realized we had to make a few sacrifices if we were going to make it work. So we did and we're still together.

I'm almost through with school and I'll finally be Dr. Roxygrrrl and I am contemplating hyphenating my name because he's been there every step of the way and cheered me on even when I was ready to quit. The reason I say all this is because if I had been single all these years I probably would've become Dr. Roxygrrl sooner, so it's not like living together for us is some carefree existence where you still live like you're single. We are truly partnered. As I said earlier, to make it work this long we had to make a few sacrifices along the way or we wouldn't still be together.


We still don't rule marriage out, but really, at this point it would just be a piece of paper. We also think about having a commitment ceremony because we've made it this far and it would be nice to celebrate that with our family and friends. I just have to feel some overwhelming urge that I must be married before I'd do it. I just don't know what it can do for us at this point that we don't already have. We're happy.

I do however, think my situation is pretty anamolous, at least relatively speaking, so I don't pretend it's the answer. If getting married is something you know you want, you shouldn't settle for anything less.

Sorry this was so long.

As far as the pre-marital sex statistic, I completely believe that people were having it just as much 50 years ago...the difference between comparing that and living together/marriage is that, well, people really can't lie about marriage - it's a matter of public record. Whether or not you had sex is not (unless you're Paris Hilton). I guess there are people out there who would lie on a survey about living together, but I don't think as many.

Maybe I have trust issues, but having seen so many friends get screwed over emotionally and monetarily, I can't imagine giving someone the power to do that sort of thing with no legal consequences, and if you move in with someone and make all sorts of rules and barriers to avoid that, I can't see where that would be fulfilling, either.

And as far as I and many other people are concerned, your relationship is a "failure" and one of the reasons why cohabitation is a bad idea.

Sure, it works for you and thousands of other people. But the average cohabitating couple that's lasted for 12 or more years, which is too damn long for ME to be in ANY type of relationship without being married, comes out of it with more than a "Dr." title and thinking about hyphenating the name IF they get married.

A great percentage of cohabitating people who have been together even 2 years come out of it having an out of wedlock child, hoping they will get married one day, and wishing they had some paperwork to show for all the "playing house" they did when it's all said and done.

I agree.

Why make rules with little legal backing? And why take it all so seriously to formalize rules but not take it seriously enough to make it legal?

I can see people who think marriage is only a piece of paper. But people who take marriage seriously as a spiritual union and/or legal institution should stop "playing house" rather sooner than later.

Living together, for me is not a means to an end in marriage. It's not the goal. I just don't see why I have to.

And I said I was thinking about hyphenating period, not IF.

And you are perfectly right about that. This where I draw my line in the sand. I would never live together and have children. There's just no two ways about that.

I lived with my husband before we got married for about 2 years - 1 year of that we were engaged. He moved up to Atlanta for grad school and I followed a year later. It didn't make sense for me to move into my own place in a city where I hardly knew anyone. Plus, the whole reason I was moving up there was for him. I did lay out my expectations before I moved in with him after seeing my best friend move in with her boyfriend and not having her expectations met (marriage). In fact, they've been living together for almost 5 years now AND he somehow conned her into moving in with his parents and becoming the caretaker for his mother with MS but yet still no ring. I let my husband (boyfriend at the time) know that I wouldn't stick around if we felt after a year that it still wasn't time for marriage. We were engaged within a year and after another year of stressful wedding planning (mostly due to my mother...but that's a story in itself) we are officially married. Had we both stayed in Florida instead of moving to Atlanta, I don't think we would have lived together before we got married but our living situation was more out of convenience and necessity than a trial run. I'm glad that we did it though. I got to see all his quirks before we got married so that I could decide whether it was something I wanted to deal with for the rest of my life.
Studies show that our chance for a successful marriage is now greatly reduced. Time will tell what will happen to us but for now I'm very happy and I'm glad that I had made the decision to move in with him.

It isnt to me, either, because marriage happens all the time without it. As some of us have said previously, I don't see the purpose in living together without an ultimate goal other than having a room mate.

A lot of people say they would not live together and have children but children end up showing up somehow. Cohabitation creates the all-too-familiar context and leads to a lot of things that people do not foresee, in general.

***

Good luck! Hyphenated names are the way to go! :D

Roxygrrl, in some states, it seems to me that you've met all of the requirements of common law marriage. Depending on where you live, you might just be married. (Colorado, Washington D.C., Iowa, Kansas, Montana, Oklahoma, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Texas, South Carolina or Utah)

The trouble with folks like you is this: What happens if you do decide to go your separate ways? Being married carries with it all sorts of protections in divorce. You don't have those sorts of protections if you're just dissolving a partnership. Also -- if one of you dies and doesn't have a will, what happens then?

Marriage, legally speaking, is a very simple, usually inexpensive way to tie up a lot of legal loose ends which couples face. It's not just something to show commitment, but an easy way to provide some strong legal protection to your marriage.

(necessary law student disclaimer: this is not to be read as legal advice, it's just my opinion, if you want real legal advice, go to a real lawyer who is licensed to practice in your state).

In those states, do you need to declare yourself married to be common law married? I hope that makes sense. We used to have it in PA, but we don't anymore (unless you're grandfathered in).

And this is off topic, but partnered or not, married or not, EVERYONE should have a will.

This is my major issue with cohabitation (and the reason I am for gay civil unions), and something that made me get out of my relationship as soon as I realized that I didn't want to get married to him. We were on great terms--and still are--but there was no way I was going to stay in a relationship out of inertia, because I would probably be the one left out in the cold financially in a split.

Also, what happens when one person gets really sick? Without anything listing you as a next of kin or giving you power of attorney, you're SOL. As good as you "think" you are with your SO's family, people show their asses when there's a crisis.

I live with my boyfriend and I told him straight up that I want to get married at some point, that moving in with him may have been a matter of convenience at the time but that it had now turned into something altogether more serious and he agreed. Hopefully time for a candlelight soon...? My point is that setting forth expectations beforehand when moving in with a boyf or girlf is definitely a good idea.

This was something that was brought up when we thought my fiance was going to have neck surgery. I told him that he should probably have his mom or dad present for the surgery in case something went wrong. I would have no say in the matter since we aren't married yet.

Although speaking about assets within the "household" the neighbors of friends initially only lived together because it was financially easier. They actually would mark stuff like furniture with one or the other's name just in case. They even kept it up after marriage for a bit. But they have been happily married for years with grown children now. But at the time it was a system they figured would work.

I agree with all of that.

Some people seem to think marriage is passé now, apparently. As passé as it is, however, the protections which come with it should still prove to be extremely relevant. For all the bullcrap that goes along with getting POAs written up, making sure wills are in order, owning everything in a corporate partnership, etc., marriage is a hell of a lot easier.

Also, if you're afraid of what happens in a divorce, see lawyers, get prenupital agreements written up. I very much believe in marriage for life, etc., (I'm old fashioned like that), but I still have a prenup, because sh%% happens.