Listen here, sweetums: Gamma Phi Beta had no fraternity men influence our founding. You obviously don't know or you wouldn't be running off at the mouth like you did by quoting something you knew was wrong.

"I'm going to try to see if I can remember as much to make it sound like I'm smart on the subject." --George W. Bush

Simma down na! If all of NPC has it wrong that your org coined the term sorority, then call us all out. If all of NPC has it wrong that your colors are what they are because of a MAN, then call us all out. No need to get all pissy. I've never had beef with you, and frankly I'm sick of all that crap and YOU. I already admitted that the quote I took from a chapter's site was not entirely accurate - yeah, we had fraternity men help us, but we didn't have a brother fraternity, ZTA has always stood on its own and THAT's why we call ourselves a fraternity. I'm sure it has something to do also with history, as in when the term sorority was coined, etc., but that's what I was taught as a new member of ZTA and that's whats in our history, so who am I to doubt it?

Oh, and please don't call me sweetums. I don't know you that well - ok, at all. Rather condescending and unnecessary to say the least. And comparing me to Dubbya with that lame quote was just dumb.

The problem is that the inaccurate statement you quoted would cause a reader to believe that Gamma Phi Beta and other organizations which use the word "sorority" were somehow founded thanks to the gracious help of a men's organization. This is not correct. If you know the statement "...is not entirely accurate..." then I'm not sure I understand why you posted it. :confused:

Honestly, that quote comes across as insulting to Gamma Phi Betas in particular and that may be why it elicits such a strong reaction.

.....Kelly :)

I'm not sure how that exact quote offends your org but if it did I apologize. I have always been led to believe that the term sorority meant that the org has a brother fraternity that helped in their founding - I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I would very much like to know if that's completely wrong, partially wrong/right, what have you. If we're all wrong about your history, then correct us. Pretty simple, or so I thought... but I feel like I keep having to repeat myself on this point. Who had the head banging against the wall smilies...??

Wow...ok.


Point of clarification - I'm not sure what you were getting at just then, but Gamma Phi Beta's colors were not selected by a man. They were selected by the sisters to honor a gentleman, Dr. Brown, who allowed early Gamma Phi Betas to use his study for meetings.

It seems just a bit out of order that you should give me and my sisters lessons on the history our own organization.

.....Kelly

Kelly, not at all. I was simply stating that your org had a man help in your founding also and that it was unfair to call ZTA out for the same thing. I'm asking for clarification but I'd like it without all the snarking, that's all.

And I know Dr. Brown didn't pick your org's colors, I was a Rho Chi at a school that had your org and we had to study up on all the orgs. I know a little bit of history about 6 chapters cuz of that, so I'm not completely in the dark :)

The quote comes across as implying that Gamma Phi Beta, which is widely known as being the organization which originated the term "sorority", was "merely" a "little sister type" organization. It further implies that your organization, which elected to be called a fraternity, is somehow "better" than those "other girl groups" and that's why you didn't use the term sorority. I'm not sure how to better explain this. (I also think I need the banging head smilie right now.)


It is wrong. Very, very wrong.


Please define what you mean when you say "help".

Syracuse University's Chancellor, Dr. E. Haven, who happens to the father of one of Gamma Phi Beta's founders, helped suggest several names, of which Gamma Phi Beta was chosen.

A lot of sororities had someone's brother suggest a badge design or a boyfriend recommend a symbol....but it's not like Gamma Phi Beta had a man pick the name, design a badge, write the ritual and draft the constitution.


I'm sorry that we're all having trouble with this, but it's awkward for Gamma Phis to keep having to correct people. :(

.....Kelly

Kelly, you aren't the only one offended by her comments. Alpha Sigma Tau had NO men involved in our founding in ANY way, and we are not a women's fraternity. To imply that we had a 'brother fraternity' is both insulting and ridiculous; you should know very well that NO NPC has a brother fraternity.

I also find it interesting that you think that honoring any man in any way means that the entire org was designed by a man...or at least that's what you're portraying yourself as thinking.

Fixed that for ya. :)

My knowledge of Gamma Phi Beta history is limited to what my Triad Sisters have shared with me on GC. I find it odd that you were led to believe that "sorority" meant the organization is coined as such because they had the help of a man. It's the first I've ever heard of this...and I've been reading GC almost 7 years.

FWIW, Alpha Gamma Delta was also founded at Syracuse years after Gamma Phi Beta Sorority. Dr. Wellesley P. Coddington (A MAN!), a professor of philosophy of psychology, noticed there was a need for a new women's group on campus when the campus population doubled. He helped unite our 11 Founders and served as faculty advisor.

Despite the term "sorority" already being at Syracuse, Alpha Gamma Delta is a Women's Fraternity and has been for 103 years now.

That's the gist of what we are told, yes. Almost every ZTA can recite the line about ZTA being founded as a fraternity to distinguish themselves from sororities. Took GC to teach me the correct definition.

Hey Tippie - since you can discuss things without getting your panties in a wad - is there anyway that you would look up a little more info on that statement for us?? It seems weird that ZTA would have a statement that's so (maybe unintentionaly) insulting to almost half the NPC. I'm thinking there's something about it that we're not understanding. Were there local sororities on the campus when ZTA was founded that were little sister type orgs, and that statement was meant to be campus-spesific, possibly?

I myself would like to know this, as well.

And I'd like to interject that I don't think that those NPC member orgs who had the help of a man (or men) in their founding are somehow inferior.
It's like the thinking giving birth to a baby without any drugs makes you superior- the important thing is the BABY, not the hows and whys of the delivery.
No matter who helped in the founding, the beauty of a GLO is the same - the ideals and creeds of the founders, living on in the members today.

I never meant to imply anyone was inferior to anyone. Tippie is right, that's what we're taught as new members and honestly, I'd rather be right and taught by the orgs' members than go on believing stuff that's wrong. The statement that defines ZTA as a fraternity can be found on the national website, as well as several other chapters' websites. Obviously, I don't believe that having a man help in a sisterhood's founding is inferior since ZTA itself had Plummer Jones, et al help us in deciding some very important stuff for us - it's all in our history books. As for the definition of sorority, I can tell you this incorrect definition is still being taught and propogated at colleges today and I agree that it needs to be corrected if women are being taught something that's as blatantly incorrect as it now seems to me.

See? No panty waddage here :D

well said.

i found my old pledge manual (1975)and will quote directly from it :

"zeta tau alpha is known as a fraternity, not as a sorority. a "fraternity" is an organization whose members have banded together for reasons of common interest and mutual benefit. there is usually some element of secrecy in its design. the terms "sorority" and "fraternity" are often used interchangeably and it is frequently necessary to do so. some women's organizations prefer "sorority", while others designate the use of "fraternity". current usage seems to favor the latter to distinguish collegiate organizations from high school or business clubs using Greek letter names and calling themselves "sororities." it was the intent of the Founders and confirmed by action at two early conventions that zeta tau alpha be designated as a "fraternity". this was done to distinguish our organization from the sisterhoods organized in connection with men's fraternities, called "sororities."

i would venture to guess that at the time of our founding, there were women's auxillary organizations linked to fraternities, much like little sister organizations of my era, and they were calling themselves sororoties.

honest to goodness, all those years ago, it never crossed my mind that fraternity and sorority could not be used interchangeably. everyone referred to the girls as members of sororities.in fact, i thought it was odd that we are a women's fraternity.

to me, it is "you say potato and i say po tah toe." we all have strong sisterhoods and do good works. enough said!

Thank you for clearing that up, FSUZeta! :)

I found it odd when I was at ChiO's rush party (back when I rushed) and they said "women's fraternity", because they were the only one out of 7 orgs on my campus. ASA, AST, DZ, PhiSig, SigKap, and Sigma are all sororities, and, of course, we had "Sorority Recruitment", so I didn't quite get why ChiO kept saying "fraternity". Throw that under the "dumb reasons for cutting a group" thread...I didn't want to be in a fraternity!!! :)

I've never run across a mention of the use of the word "sorority" for auxillary groups while reading about fraternity history - does anyone know of one? My knowledge of fraternity history is hardly comprehensive, so I'd really like to know. I thought little sister groups were more of a 20th century thing - especially since there were so few women attending college at all in the 19th century.

please don't take my comments as verbatim. i was just speculating what those womens organizations affiliated with fraternities in the olden days could have been. i do not know what they actually were, but thought that the nearest thing we might have(or have had) would be little sister groups.

We're not questioning YOU, we're just questioning in general.:D

Is "sororoties" a direct quote from the manual or a typo? Because if it is the word used (versus sororities), that explains a lot to me. ZTA would definitely want to use fraternity opposed to "sororoty"... and then SthrnZeta's comment shouldn't really be so offensive to Gamma Phi Beta because they coined the term "sorority"... not the word that ZTA was adamant against using. Man, that was a lot of typing if that was a typo!! :rolleyes:

oh puh-leeze! it is a typo on my part. my proofreader took the morning off and i have arthritis and sometimes my fingers don't work as well as they used to. i will correct it right away.

alphafrog, i took nothing personally, just wanted to clarify that i was just guessing along with everyone else. maybe someone can find the answer for us. i'll bet if anyone could, it would be the woman who had compiled the online greekpages. what was her name?

I just figured that if ZTA had it as part of the pledge manual, there must be some reason - perhaps as has been mentioned it was a local group, and thus off our NPC radars. The paragraph does seem to imply that sororities were "little sister" type groups, which we've established is not the case in terms of NPC sororities, none of which were formed as support groups for any fraternities. So, my question is what group(s) was ZTA thinking of when writing that paragraph?
(And I love that you have your pledge manual , FSUZeta- wish I could find mine!)

Especially since ZTA was founded at an all-female school. The only conclusion I come to is that it's referring to KD, and I've never heard anything (granted, I don't know their history that well) that says any man had anything to do w/ KD's founding.

Maybe there was a bunch of townies hanging around the Hampden-Sydney dudes calling themselves a sorority and being annoying. :p

Especially since our original colors were not brown, meaning at the time of the founding they had nothing whatsoever to do with a man. (wishes the board had a lightbulb smile)

Not to mention that there is more to our colours than honouring Dr. Brown . . .

Thanks FSU for clearing that up - my pledge manual is in a big tupperware tub and I didn't feel like digging through it.

As far as little sister orgs, I know of at least one for sure that was a group of women at UGA (stopped in the late 70s I think) that was a little sister org to DTD there, they even have their own composites in the house. I'm not sure if it's a 20th century thing but I was always under the impression it was much older until I saw those composites in the house (Iris Sisters I think they were called... not sure).

At first I too thought using the word fraternity was odd, but when it was explained to me that a sorority had a men's organization help them get founded it made sense to me and I was always proud of the fact that we were a "womens fraternity. That's not to deman any other group, I just thought the reason was neat. I wholeheartedly agree that we all have wonderful attributes, etc. and I certainly don't think that ZTA is necessarily "better" than any other org (of course I love it above all others, can't be helped!). Obviously I don't know what other meaning the colors for Gamma Phi have besides honoring Dr. Brown, I would assume they hold a special meaning beyond that, just as Zeta's colors do and all other orgs. I appreciate the fact that you all love Gamma Phi as I love ZTA and would stand up for your org so I don't take any of this personally either, but a little more discussion and little less attitude would be nice :)

But the reason is UNTRUE. That's what everyone is trying to get across. I am a member of a sorority and no men had anything to do with our founding.

Just because ZTA didn't want to get confused with the Hampden Sydney groupie sorority or whoever the heck they were, does not mean that EVERY group called a sorority had men involved in any way in their creation. It's like if a brothel were called the "Majorette Manor" and the girls called themselves "majorettes" and the real baton-twiriling majorettes in the area decided to call themselves "Twirl Squad" to avoid confusion. It doesn't mean all majorettes are hookers just because that ONE group decided to not use the word.

Thanks a hell of a lot GroovePhi62 for taking us down this path for the umpteenth time, bwah.

I usually just say "my sorority" when talking to non-members because it is confusing and unnecessary to have to explain the difference to someone who could care less.

Did you buy too many vowels? :cool:

I know that NOW. All I was saying is that this is what I was taught as a NM and that's what has been taught and is still being taught. Trust me, I appreciate the clarifications.

And I also refer to Zeta as my sorority to non-Greeks because it's just easier. I'm sure most of us are guilty of that who belong to womens fraternities, lol.

British spelling, NutBrnHair - and hey, I like me some vowels!

Perhaps it was due to ZTA's being founded after both KD and Tri Sigma (at Longwood). Perhaps, since the first two were called sororities, ZTA's founders felt the need to differentiate themselves by calling themselves a fraternity.

But then why the reference to an association with men's fraternities? :confused:

Scandia -

Congratulations on finding a home with Theta Phi Alpha. I know that it is something that you set a goal for, worked for, and finally achieved. Congratulations and I hope it is everything that you wished for.

LaneSig

Good work getting the thread back on track! :)

Ya got me there. I have no idea.

Sorry for the hijack, Scandia. Congrats on your new home.

First of all, congratulations to Scandia for joining the sisterhood of Theta Phi Alpha! That is wonderful news, and I hope your membership brings a lifetime of wonderful memories!

For the topic that this thread has morphed into...If I remember correctly from the history of Kappa Delta, KD was first called a fraternity. A number of years after the founding (almost for sure after the founding of Sigma and Zeta), the formal name was changed to sorority. I noticed this as a collegian when reading the history and found it to be interesting. As I do not have a copy of the history nearby, I cannot say for certain the exact year. Perhaps one of my sisters can check this out.

I do think it is so interesting to learn about the different organizations' histories. Such a fascinating aspect of higher education.

That's right - I forgot! Scratch my last speculation!

I think the change was made in 1906. I don't know any real background info though... like, why fraternity was used in the first place or why we changed to sorority.

So sorry for the continued hijack, Scandia. :o