I have not heard of such an attempt. Of course, the NPC has its definition of hazing (you have to scroll down to get to it).

And like Kevin, I think that many orgs would be reluctant to cede that kind of authority to those outside the org.

Even if such an attempt were made, though, it would still leave open the problem of as many as 51 different legal definitions of hazing throughout the country, plus hundreds of collegiate definitions (remembering that a college's concern with hazing extends, or should extend, beyond GLOs).

I would have to disagree, unless you are using "laws" to mean policies of GLOs and universities. Violation of hazing laws is a criminal offense. One of the foundational principles of criminal law is that the law must be sufficiently clear put to a reasonable person on notice as to what conduct is prohibited. A person shouldn't have to wonder whether a judge or jury will consider doing x a violation of the law. Yes, I know there are the obscenity laws, but as a general rule, allowing broad interpretation = vague = unconstitutional.

I would hazard a guess that almost everything that has been mentioned in this thread as "going to far" (such as interviews) is perfectly legal under legal definitions of hazing, but not permitted under a GLO's policies or institutional policies.

I would say that almost always they are.

BOTH of these are hazing and NEITHER is the way to do interviews. Neither of your groups should have been allowed to use them in this fashion and the privilege of doing them should have been taken away. From YOUR CHAPTER -not your whole organization. (And yes LPI, I know yours was local)

We NEVER had to spit facts back out about sisters - I think one time someone jokingly asked me what a sister's pet cow's name was, but it was quite obvious it was a joke. The only time we had sisters complain about questions was when one of our pledges (who was later terminated and probably shouldn't have been initiated in the first place) was asking really crude things along the lines of "do you look at what's in the Kleenex after you blow your nose?" The only hard and fast requirement we had was that we had to call and set up the interviews in advance - and that's just common courtesy. And if a pledge was visiting the house during her free time, some sisters - MANY sisters - would say "what the heck, I've got some time, do you want to do my interview now?"

I'm sorry you guys had such a crappy experience with them, and I'm sorry your chapters were full of jerks on power trips, but that doesn't mean that the groups who used them correctly and successfully should have to give them up - any more than ritual should be eliminated because some chapters made hazing a part of it.

It is sad that such things get banned because a few bad apples ruin it--again, we're back to if you give an inch, someone will take a mile. And while it would be great to tell XX chapter that they can no longer do a certain activity because they abused the privlege, I think we unfortunately default to just banning it all together because it would get pretty difficult to keep up with which chapter could do what.

To this day, I still remember some of the random facts I had to memorize about sisters during my associating period-- I am not scarred or anything by it, but I guess I just wish they would have taken the time to get to know more about me...and more than just things like having a pair of socks to match every outfit or the first and middle names of each sibling!!

We keep track of chapters' grades, the number of pledges they took, and their activities so we can give out awards. We keep track of chapters that are on social probation for this or that. Why would it be so hard to keep track of interviews - yes or no?

Sorry for the massive bump, but I was searching for something and realized I wanted to respond to this.

Yea definitely----a thread devoted to how much of a pussy fraternity Alpha Chi Rho really is.

Quit you bitching.

Everyone had to do terrible/stupid stuff while pledging, so don't act like ur fraternity is hot shit.

Seriously lol.

I'm sure some of my fraternity's chapters haze.

Strike that -- I know that many do.

Many also do not. Our national policy forbids it. I didn't have to do anything terrible/stupid during my pledging process (I was a colonist, so my experience was atypical, but my chapter absolutely does not haze).

Nice first post, btw. Did you really register just to spew that?

That's insulting.

It's also ill informed and childish.

You don't have to be hazed to be a man.

Some would argue that real men don't take any crap from anyone.

Especially hazing.

Show your real manhood -- eliminate hazing.

Just because that's the way it's been in the past doesn't make it right.

DeltAlum, what an EXCELLENT response and very well stated!!!!:D I totally agree!!!!! This is similar to what we tell our chapters at very Regional Conclave and International Conference.


ZBT: "Inspriring Todays College Men to Become Leaders Of Tomorrow."

If a 'real man' wants to join a fraternity then he probably wants to join the best fraternity at his campus. The one that has the biggest parties, best reputation, best alumni connections, nicest house, etc.

Yes he's going to need to make sacrifices, nothing worthwhile is ever gained without sacrifice.

If a man gets into Harvard and drops out to go to community college because Harvard was too hard, does that means he's a real man?

Yes. Perhaps not that studious or prepared for a 4 year University yet, but still a "real man" depending on what else he has going on and is looking forward to.

There are much greater things to accomplish than graduating from Harvard.

You miss the point. A real man strives to be the best in all aspects of his life, academics, social, fraternal, etc. A real man doesn't sell himself short because he's afraid of making sacrifice.

Oh was I to infer that the man who left Harvard was afraid of sacrifice and lazy? :)

I just don't think he should be willing to sacrifice his dignity or self-respect.

If I got a bid from a great fraternity and passed on it because I was too afraid of some push-ups then I would say I didn't have much in the way of self-respect in the first place.

So the fraternity that bids you will tell you that all you have to do is some push ups?

I wouldn't say push-ups are an affront to dignity or self-respect. I'm all for physical fitness.

But since you said this hypothetical pnm passed because of push-ups, at least it is obvious that it is discussed during recruitment. So yes, in that case, an informed choice could be made by a pnm. I wasn't aware that that sort of thing was discussed during recruitment, so color me impressed.

I was under the impression that hazing (and some activities that might be construed as hazing, some that might not) was not really discussed with pnm. I'd have to say that IF your "brotherhood building activities" could be discussed with pnm, or an advisor, or a university official, you are probably on the right track. I just don't know that you could do that with some activities that I am personally familiar with, or some I have been made aware of through other people and news reports.

To borrow something from the post above this one of yours:
http://images.despair.com/products/d.../tradition.jpg

Bull.

Depend what he does with his life afterward. The second richest man in the world dropped out of Harvard, didn't even finish college.