Interesting, that rule is still enforced on my sister's campus as they had issues with a Greek Week shirt.

In AOII we give new members letters immediately. There is no prohibition. They may not know the meaning of AOII yet, but by our selection process, we choose girls who unknowingly live it anyway! (I'm sure every other group does the same!!) We were not allowed to have lavaliers or roses until initiation, but I think that was a local tradition. I have not seen the new member manual in years, so I don't know what it says about this issue. Since we don't have a crest and our rose is usually substituted, my chapter reserved red roses for intiated sisters. I've seen other chapters do the same...giving PNMs pink roses at recruitment instead of red and wishing with them that the rose will turn red.

We were told there were 2 rules when we pledged: don't wear letters or the crest before initiation and don't come onto a sister's boyfriend. A lot of people on GC have asked me about the "don't wear Beta" rule and I never heard of that rule until I came to GC. I can't even figure out why we would have it.

PiPhiERDoc
 

At least in the mid-80's when I was an active, it WAS Pi Phi's international policy not to allow pledges to wear letters, it said so in the pledge manual. I guess changed internationally a few years later. We also weren't allowed to wear the arrow (not just the badge, but any arrow) but I don't remember if that was just our chapter or an international thing. Time to get the old pledge manual out of the attic.

At my alma mater, new Pi Phis could have the greek PI PHI letters on their shirts, but not the Beta.

was your new member different back then?

Wow! Y'all couldn't wear arrows?

I had to have a T-shirt specially made that spelled out Pi Beta Phi because I wanted to shout out to the world that I was a Pi Phi! And back in the day, people usually wore their letter shirts only in their GLO's colors, so I remember when we ordered our first letter shirts right before initiation and it was a big deal:do I choose wine with light blue or blue with wine? Or maybe be really radical-haha!-and choose light blue with white!

One pledge sister accidentally bleached hers and she was the only girl in our chapter to sport a lavender letter shirt.

Not sure exactly what you mean, but everything was different back then. Pledgeship (now known as "new member period") was at least a semester long, usually not initiated until Feb after pledging in August. Frills rush, scavenger hunts, initiation in the order of your gpa, etc.

We couldn't even write the greek letters or draw an arrow. I don't know if this was just our chapter, but we couldn't even have anything with letters or an arrow on it. Seems kind of harsh, but I never seemed to really mind as a pledge. I just looked forward to being able to wear them after initiation.

I thought the Pi Phi new member pin is an arrow?

:eek:I just remembered that for prefs, we were given an arrow lavaliere. But you're right, it was so wonderful to finally be able to wear the letters and crest! After initiation, we raced to our cars to slap on crest decals!

The new member pin is actually a dart, so not technically an arrow. We did have a wooden arrow (kind of like a paddle) that we would have all of the initiated sisters sign, then we turned it in before Christmas break and then got it back after initiation all decorated.

It was kind of funny because all of our event tshirts for the whole chapter would have Pi Beta Phi spelled out so that everyone could wear them, then once initiation came around all of the tshirts would have greek letters on them.

And yes, I remember I couldn't wait to put the decals on my car! And find a piece of paper so I could write out the greek letters!

We got our first "official" letter shirts during Friendship Week, but there was never a problem with wearing them prior to then. We did, however, have to wear our pledge pins at ALL times - even to bed!

Alpha Epsilon Phi does not allow anyone other than an initiated sister to wear the Greek letters. New members, significant others, et al can wear shirts that say "Alpha Epsilon Phi" spelled out, or "AEPhi", but not the Greek letters. We waste no time giving our new members bid day gifts and ribbons, but they have to wait until initiation to wear the letters.

A number of NPC sororities don't allow new members to own anything with the crest. AEPhi's new member pin actually is the crest, slightly modified to remove the Greek letters.

You say tomayto, I say tomahto. :)

Pi Phis,
I think I read somewhere that the "tradition" of new members not wearing Beta was because the pledge pin only had the Pi and Phi on it. This supposedly lead to the idea that Beta was reserved for initiated sisters.

I could be wrong, but I think thats what was on the chapter website for my schools Pi Phi Chapter. Then again, they also have a lot of chapter traditions and even a song that is only sung in the Iowa Chapters...its really funny to watch!

[QUOTE=DUKyleXY;1521386]Pi Phis,
I think I read somewhere that the "tradition" of new members not wearing Beta was because the pledge pin only had the Pi and Phi on it. This supposedly lead to the idea that Beta was reserved for initiated sisters.

Actually, the pledge pin is an arrowhead with just the BETA on it - not the Pi or the Phi. From the Pi Beta Phi Webpage:
"The pledge pin is an arrowhead of Roman gold mounted with the Greek letter B (Beta) in burnished gold."

Preface: I'm an alumna of a local sorority, so NPC rules sort of go out the window.

We do not wear letters until after initiation. Pledges (yes, we still use the P word) may wear Tau Delta written out, wear the mascot, wear the colors, and wear the motto. Our crest rarely makes it on to clothing (it's really intricate) but I think that, again, may only be worn by initiated members.

It's a big deal to get your letters right after initiation, and actives go all out for them.

New members of Kappa Kappa Gamma are allowed to wear everything except the fraternity badge from the time they accept their bid. Individual new member classes may choose not to wear letters until after initiation, but there is no fraternity-wide bylaw against it.

In fact, in reading through our bylaws, it seems the only thing restricted to initiated members is the badge.

I remember being at a rush party (not ASA) and the girl rushing me told me that NM WERE allowed to wear letters, but ALL pledge classes have ALWAYS voted not to. In other words, Nationals says we have to let you, but we're not going to, anyway.

If I had to guess (and that's all it would be), I would guess that the idea that NMs can't wear the Beta comes from the nickname "Pi Phi." It would be sort of like the rule in many GLOs (including mine) that pledges/NMs/probationary members cannot wear the Greek letters but can wear a shirt with the name spelled out in Latin letters. (E.g., FMA = not okay, but "Phi Mu Alpha" = okay.)

I can see how somewhere along the line, someone said "it's okay to use the nickname Pi Phi prior to initiation, but the actual formal name -- Pi Beta Phi -- like the coat-of-arms, has to wait until after initiation." Then someone else infers that because the NMs never wear the Beta, it must be a Pi Phi rule or tradition that NMs can't or shouldn't wear the Beta.

Like I said, just a guess.

Yeah, that's pretty much how my chapter did it too.

If that's what your chapter/nm class chose to do, that's your decision. I don't care either way. I was just answering for my own organization. My last statement was meant to show the ONLY restriction on letters, crest, whathaveyou in regards to non-members involves our badge. That's not to say some chapters don't do the whole "no letters before initiation" deal, but if it's a nm class choice, I don't really care.

It wasn't your org that my post was about. You just happened to be talking about that subject.;)

And, if the pledge class votes on it, it's fine...but the way the girl put it to me, it seemed like the vote was just a formality and letters WOULD NOT be worn during pledging regardless of what the NM class actually wanted.

And that's essentially my problem with the argument that the pledge class decided so it's ok. Faced with "Tradition" and the suggestion that you go along with it, what pledge class won't? I think what bugs me the most about this thread is the thumbs down! It's not bad to get letters on bid day.

The thumbs down was my personal opinion. I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone but I personally feel that you shouldn't wear letters until you really know what they stand for, and initiation provides that understanding, coupled with your pledge period. Obviously we disagree on that point, but we're from different orgs and different schools. I think the point made about campus climates was dead on.

Wow! I thought this was a national policy! Thanks for the clarification. The Pi Phi Angels at my school weren't allowed to wear letters or the Beta until initiation, either.

ADPi new members are allowed to wear letters on Bid Day. They may not wear or own the crest until initiation.

ADPi new members are also allowed to attend regular chapter meetings (they are excused during any ritual that involves a requirement to be an initiated member), they vote and can hold chapter offices that don't require knowledge of ritual that would learned at initiation.

I think wearing letters, Greek or Roman characters, is a wonderful way to get excited about your chapter, promote your chapter and aid in new member retention.

It does depend on how the campus does things, but some traditions that were considered kosher 10 years ago might now be viewed as walking a fine line or hazing today. It isn't that the acts are dangerous or unwanted in many cases; it is more that some unreasonable person ruined things for everyone.

I give a big thumbs up to letters of any kind: it shows the whole world that you are proud to represent your organization.

Weren't you just saying how you WANTED to not wear letters? Having an active say that basically guarantees that the NM class will vote to not wear letters. Everyone wants to be liked, and no one wants to be 'that' new member that tries to go against tradition.

You've made a few other contradictory statements in this thread, too.

When a friend of mine was a Pi Beta Phi pledge (yes, this was back when sorority women were pledges) at Kentucky, they too were suppose to only wear either the words spelled out (Pi Phi) or the greek letters (P F). One time, on a lark (ok, I may have suggested it), she put her pledge pin in the middle of her letters.

It looked something like this but with the letters being much larger than the pin.

P http://www.pibetaphi.org/images/symbols_pin.gif F

As I recall, she got a talking to from an active (though it seemed to me that the the active was suppressing a smile) about the proper way to wear her pledge pin.

We wore our new member pins when we "pin dressed" during the week and to our chapter meetings.

Ok, since I've been ever so slightly attacked on this thread, allow me to clarify my position and then forget I ever opened this can of worms. My new member coordinator stated that we could vote as a pledge class. Of course, I wanted to wear letters but I thought it was kinda neat that it was traditionally reserved for initiated sisters, it gave us a status symbol to look forward to because, as I've said before, letters were worn a lot on my campus. She told us that it was tradition to wait to wear them but we would vote as a pledge class whether or not we wanted to wait. I'm not going to lie, there was of course some influence on her part, but I don't feel like it was hazing (gray area maybe, but I didn't feel hurt or humiliated so I don't feel it constituted hazing). Then I saw how most of the other chapters on campus adhered to this belief also, so then I really believed it was a good idea to wait. There are chapters that make girls wear their pledge ribbons all throughout their pledge period and no one calls them out for hazing, so I think saying that my new member coordinator was walking a fine line of hazing is just silly. I've stated my belief, some have agreed, others disagreed. The fact that we all do it differently is just one more thing that sets each chapter apart and I don't feel that's a bad thing.

So don't get upset that there's discussion about it.

BTW, requiring NMs wear their ribbons would also technically qualify as hazing under most sororities policies. So I'll call them out if you like. "They're doing it too" or "they're doing it worse" doesn't absolve anyone else.

Discussion and attacking are different. All one has to say is that they disagree and here's why, not "you're contradicting yourself" and you're wrong. I didn't think that's what GC was for. If you don't agree with me, that's fine, just say so instead of making me feel bad for a belief that I know I'm not alone in or wrong to believe. And I'm not saying that one act is more an act of hazing than another, just trying to show another example is all. I'm not trying to shift the light onto another topic or anything like that, just proving a point. Sororities do all sorts of little things that could technically constitute hazing if you want to take it that far, but then you lose some of the fun of traditions that some women hold very dear. I could go into a list of things my chapter did that you may consider hazing (in that oh so gray area) but I'd be messing with ritual and traditions. All I'm saying is, I disagree with you and you disagree with me. Simple enough.

That's your chapter, not everyone's. I honestly can't think of ONE thing we do with NMs that could even be in a gray area. Of course, my school is known for being extremely strict with hazing laws - it is simply not tolerated among the NPC/NIC groups on campus. [I can't speak for the NPHC; I don't really know any chapter well enough to say about it.]

And there is nothing wrong with pointing out that you're being contradictory.

If I didn't feel hurt in some way or humiliated, then I don't feel it was hazing. I think some people take the hazing issue a little far for political correctness sake and don't see that some of it is merely in good fun. I was honestly jealous of the girls who had to wear their pledge ribbons all the time, I would have been proud to wear my sorority colors every day whether I was told to or not. Isn't it expected that sisters wear sorority paraphanalia during recruitment and that new members especially are told to do so during COR afterwards - and that's not considered hazing. I'm just saying, by your rationale, a lot of things that we ALL do could be considered hazing and I don't feel telling a new member that it is more appropriate to wait to wear our letters until they know their full meaning is hazing. Your chapter and you may feel differently, but it was our campus climate to keep this tradition and again, I don't feel it's hazing. You're acting like I had my fat circled!!!

So the deal with my chapter was that we were allowed to get letters as NMs, but our chapter tradition was that our mom got us our first set of letters (I've expounded upon our mom-daughter families elsewhere, if anyone wants a rundown, I'll give it again). We didn't find out who our mothers were until I-week.
This thread actually makes me think of the letters in AIM profiles issue. Something that's not familiar to you more mature ladies is the issue of instant messenger profiles.
When I got my bid I was SO proud to put my letters in my profile but a friend, sister and recent alum of my chapter (friend first for 4 years prior) said that while she didn't care, there would be sisters who would. So I whipped them out my profile and told my pledge sisters to do the same.
Well my big (also the chapter president!) noticed this immediately and asked me what was up so I told her and she bristled and said that we were all allowed to put the letters up and if anyone complained to send them to her.

We never had that issue with AIM profiles, sisters didn't care what was up there, as long as it was positive. For some reason, it was all about those stitched block letters :rolleyes: But I can tell you, it felt so good to wear them finally the day of initiation and know that everyone who saw me in them knew I was a sister and not just a NM. :D

While that may be your personal definition of hazing, that's not the one used by HQs. Did you wear your sorority colors every day? Since you would have been proud to do so even though it wasn't a requirement?

Due to your phrasing, I'm guessing no. Why? Because you weren't required.

BTW, stop please with the "your chapter and you" thing. Think about (Inter)Natonal HQs... not chapters.

Whether you're 'proud of it' or not, it's still hazing.

Yes and no. Yes, sisters are to wear letters; it encourages interest. As far as NMs, if they didn't want to wear letters we wouldn't make them; nor would we require them not to. We would ask them to, but if they didn't, it's not a big deal. It depends on how things are run.

Regardless of what you 'feel', it's hazing. Sorry that your definition doesn't match the law.


I would be careful about how you are representing ZTA in this thread. You're advocating hazing, you know. And as all GCers know, it's easy to find out who someone is. I'd just be more careful.

Do you mean to tell me that nothing you had in your new member period would constitute hazing by "the law?" I find that hard to believe.

The bold emphasis is mine... but that's all that stood out to me from this post. I saw the change in terminology during my college years - I was a pledge, when I left, the new girls were NMs. Even having been called a pledge, I don't think any initiated sister (in my chapter - gotta get that disclaimer in there) would have called us "JUST" a pledge (or NM).

That's part of the attitude that drives the hazing argument - you're basically saying that NMs are lesser people than initiated sisters.