I must be missing something. I don't get the reaction to Child's post. To me it appears she is just being honest about her experience on her campus.

But then I didn't get the reaction to my post to Wolfman either. :confused:

Yeah, a similar thing happened in Omega. To address this issue,they kept whittling down the length of the pledge period and tweaking the program until 1990 when the big change were adopted in the NPHC. The problem is not as acute in the sororities as the fraternities but across the board, we face the same issues, organizationally speaking. And, unfortunately, we get tarred with the same brush when things go awry in some big, high profile cases.

Child,

Hazing is across the board (Black, White, Latino, Asian, Purple, Green, whatever)

It is present in MANY cultures over the past thousands of years and has manifested itself in many different ways.

Whether or not hazing happens is purely on a chapter basis for NPHC and NPC/NIC. I know of NPHC orgs that haze and ones that don't haze. I know of NPC/NIC orgs that haze and ones that don't haze. You can't make blanket statements like that and expect people to take your words first hand.

Also, another reason for small numbers is the proportion of Black, Latino, Asian students on campuses across the country. Except for HBCUs, HSIs, and some California schools, all are major minorities at most institutions...hence numbers will be smaller.

Are there other issues that contribue to smaller numbers? Of course. Is hazing one of them? Yes, it could be, but it depends on the chapter.

Hazing is still very very prevalent in all orgs across the board, and just trying to ban it has never worked and won't work until the culture of what it means to be "Greek" is changed. End of story.

Pledging and hazing have been thrown together into one basket, and now it's a crime to make a kid memorize your history or something. So, hazing will continue because members value their history and "traditions".

NPHC and NPC/NIC have strong anti-hazing policies, but if you look at say DST's website for example you will see lists of people who had their membership snatched or fined, etc. for issues like hazing. The list is not like one or two people either. (Sorry for callin DST out, but it's site that sticks out in my mind the most about members who got in trouble w/ IHQ)

As for secrecy amongst NPHC orgs...yea it's there. Why is it there? I am sure there are many contributing factors:

-anti-Black sentiment on campuses throughout the past century forcing undercover operations

-the sense of empowerment the individual gets being part of something exclusive (this obviously is not limited to NPHC orgs)

-"traditions" building up over time

-probably a lot more too

As AKA Monet said, a lot of the misunderstandings come from much bigger issues like segregation (both self-segregation and intentional segregation) or stereotypes or whatever.

Greek life has the potential to be bridges between various cultures and backgrounds. Unfortunately, right now it magnifies the barriers in many cases (per my research).

It's up to us to change it. :)

Lack of knowledge? I don't agree. Of course interested individuals wil not know EVERYTHING about any NPHC org before intake, but they know enough....I did.

My campus has Greek Speak each semester where all NPHC groups tell attendees thier history, chapter history, requirements for membership (as stated on the website) and this event is REQUIRED by the university to make sure that interested individuals are made aware of what the university stance on hazing is as well as their desired organization stance on hazing.

AKA also has 'the General Information for the Collegian' brouchure that ALL interested ladies are welcome to that tells them what is allowed and what is NOT. To me that is pretty cut and dry. As stated on our website and at my campus, "Any one being a participant in hazing WILL be denied membership!" ......That is cut and dry.

With that being said there is no need for me to coach little Jane as how she should become a member.....I didn't have a coach and I am doing well.

I got the impression that what she is saying is that due to other people's (not her own) ignorance of how MGC & NPHC orgs work, they have these ideas about the size of the chapters and other things, and that's why she is pushing for greater communication and awareness between councils on her campus. Perhaps I misinterpreted?

You may be right. I won't take that aspect of what she's saying away from her. If she could perhaps be half as eloquent as you are, maybe I'd understand her point. Otherwise it just sounds like she's a neo running off at the mouth about a lot of things she doesn't know about.

Thank you so much for pointing this out. I hear this all the time. If an organization is meant to serve a particular segment of the population, they are probably going to attract mostly people who belong to that segment of the population. I'm pretty sure on most campuses if you look at the statistics, white students join greek organizations just as often as non-white students.

If there are only 2,000 minorities on your campus, I doubt that there will be chapter sizes of 50-60 for each organization.

And just so people understand where I'm coming from, CHildofthehorn said this:

Some of the Multi-cultural orgs. are extremely cliquish(w/hazing) and by doing so harm the others who are not. Since the NPC and IFC orgs are larger numbers per group, there is a more heavily enforced regulation.


Without any sort of preface that this was the "prevailing notion" as opposed to her personal opinion. If she clarifies herself, I would be appreciative. Otherwise, I really don't like the accusations of cliquishness and hazing, even if she's saying not all the cultural orgs do it.

You might think an NPHC org is cliquish because they are small and only like being around each other, but when you understand the history of NPHC organizations, that's sorta the point...especially on a white campus.

When you understand the WORK that goes into keep an active chapter of an NPHC organization going -- again, especially on a white campus -- maybe you will understand why NPHC orgs aren't taking the lead on all Greek events.

Child of the horn, didn't your sorority recolonize with like 120 people? Isn't the average NPHC org at your school one tenth of that size? Yet the NPHC orgs have the same responsibilities that you do, at least to the university. They can't be everywhere at all times, you know.

And this is for anybody who is having those feelings that they just wish the NPHC orgs would "come out and play" sometimes.

Is it just me or does NPC/IFC seem really cliquish also?

That's how I took it, too.

Not at my school. It seems that they only stick to thier own sorority or fraternity. At my school ALL of the NPHC stick together and I love that! If one of my Sorors is not present at something I can have no qualms by sitting with any of the other D9 versus sitting alone. The NPC at my school is VERY LARGE (probably smaller than other SEC schools nearby) at least when I compare how many of them it is to us.

To be honest, all orgs, greek, athletic, social or what have you...may seem cliquish by nature. We have a tendency to stick to what we know. I'm an NPHC Greek and feel 'at home' comfortable sitting next to my Sands or a Que, Iota or Zeta! BUT I also felt fine sitting with A-Psi, a lady of Kappa Alpha Theta or my guys in Sig Ep!

At my alma mater We'd have Greek Week with teams consisting of members of NPHC, MGC, IFC & PHA, etc. Also...my chapter hosted several joint programs with Alpha Psi Lambda, Latino Fraternity. We also had several Open Houses (my chapter created the official one for NPHC at O-State. OO-OOP! ;) ) and Meet the Greeks talks, so everyone has the opp to learn of the other orgs.

Let's remember...We're all people first, there was a time when we weren't Greek and we were all just measly little freshmen searching to find our niche. The PHA Pres and NPHC Pres might have started off as grand roommates freshmen year.

:) to my TWIN and Sensuret I, I second your comments.

Touche TWIN!!

As I was so bluntly told, why does she have to preface it? :D:D

LOL..... well all she really has to do is stay ChildOftheHorn and die, lol

Wha?
 

People spread rumors of hazing and then people start to say stuff like that (that is what the i.e. was for ;) )

BTW: I never made a statement about all the orgs in the cultural greek sys. hazing. People hear of one or two incidents that may or not have happened and they make assumptions. (People do that a lot!)

Honestly, a lot of people do not know their options. There is a lot of a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE about the greek system in general to NON-GREEKS. When you are consider the less exposure that the cutural greek orgs. get, it is resonable that a person would not know as much.

Even though I was only initiated in spring quarter, I have completed as of now two years there. I think that does give me the ability to comment on the campus climate.

For those of you hearing me selectively and not in context, understand that my intentions are for unity and change. :D

We actually started piloting in the 80s and tried two different processes. We went with the most effective of the two. As you probably remember the HBCUs were really on our cases.

First, I am responding as a former Grad Ad and I do know how hard it is for undergraduates who join on these campuses, especially when their graduate members came in at time when there was segregation or civil rights protests... Times are NOT the same anymore no matter how much we like to reminsce.

These young people clique up because after they are initiated the actually ARE encountering mental HAZING and abuse by the faculty and staff who are clueless and HATE greeks--ALL GREEKS--including Greeks from Greece. If the letters are Greek, they HATE them...

I have NEVER seen such anger, resentment and hatred before until on of my UG sorors requested funds for a programmatic event. Then the student government association who charges ALL tuition paying student for these funds said they will not release the funds to ANY GREEK organization.

I circumvented by speaking to the city Council... Few of the members of Sigma Phi Epsilon and Kappa Alpha were highly concerned... Like Mission Beach, CA in the $20 million household running some companies in University City, CA... Let's just say alienation of any GLO was ended at that school...

So this is about leveraging more than anything else. But our UG's DO NOT leverage at these schools. You had better believe we leveraged at Spelman... And my sorors at Clark in Alpha Pi did too...

And, what I am saying that your ALUMNI are here to HELP you! Why must we be here to clean up messes usually causing due increase...

Young people NEVER listen to adults. It's been that way since the beginning of time. When we speak to young folks, we are often not joking, but trying to assist.

Yes, non-greeks who NEVER had a parent in the greek system will NEVER understand "Greek Life". We have over 70% immigrants starting to attend colleges. Their home countries do not have these kinds of things... Even if we explain the historical significance, it is still outside their purview or consciousness. Then the ethnically identified may (or may not) choose to identify with cultural GLO's...

But, in the end-game, somehow we all have to come together to make a difference. Because when we suffer due to unfortunate circumstances, it will not matter if we hold a "greek title".

Hi childofthehorn! I had no idea you go to northwestern.. are there other GC'ers who go to NU?


We were invited and were supposed to perform the previous year but we had our Midwest Brotherhood Rally at the same day unfortunately :( You will see us next year for sure :D

[quote=ChildoftheHorn;1495595]Hmmm... do you remember that "famous" NU daily article written awhile back?

Mocking Diversity's Promise
(and everyone else should take a look at this too.. it's.. interesting)

"The lead article in The Daily's final issue of fall 2006 focused on declining black enrollment since the 1970s. Apparently NU is in some sort of crisis - there aren't enough blacks here. For now, this isn't our crisis. Our crisis is that blacks and other minorities do not spend enough time in any context with other races (and vice versa). Increasing the enrollment ratio of any race will not increase the interaction between different races and backgrounds. If NU were to eliminate social groups that construct themselves on race or a "cultural history," it would be the first step to resolving this crisis."

This article was written by a member of an IFC fraternity, basically calling for NPHC and MGC greeks to disappear, and from what I remember he wasn't the only one that held this opinion. Besides one guy from his fraternity that joined "our" cause in protest, most of the guys in his house totally agreed with him.

The NPHC and MGC greeks held a unity rally to protest, and apparently the guys in that house called our rally "bullshit" (this is a direct quote from the fraternity member who sided with us and overheard it). Other IFC greeks seemed to hold similar feelings about us. Of course, that is just from what I hear... but still, I'm pretty sure there's some truth to that. At end of our rally we held an event at Norris where everyone could discuss the issue and make speeches etc..., and some ignorant **** dressed in a bunny costume ran by trying to distract us and mock us.

It's kind of hard for us to want to work toward unity with mainstream Greeks when it seems like they really don't like us :mad:

Btw, I know that he was writing for unity and more interaction between different races, but his definition of unity is much much different.. (kinda like the perfect Greek world would be all races in IFC frats). Although in a strange way I feel like not 100% of his article is completely bs, and I feel terrible about it...

Sorry, I'm not trying to hijack this thread. But just for fun, I'd like you guys to note the irony of his final paragraph. :p

Tehe -- there are a lot of member here who are from NU....I didnt think there were many -- but I was surprised!

[QUOTE=nwu43;1496293]:eek:

So basically the only way to be unified is to all be the same???

To interject another perspective here - one of the things I valued about my sisterhood was the fact that I was NOT in a group where we were all the same. I had sisters of different races, majors, ages, interests, and I think it was a very good thing.

I wasn't trying to say that everyone in an NPC/IFC group is all the same. I was responding to the article, and anyone else who believes that there is no need for NPHC, MGC, or any other groups outside of NPC/IFC groups - that these groups are the key to unity and the existence of other groups detracts from it.

We can be unified without all being the same. If you can do it within a sorority, you can do it within Greek life in general.

I actually believe that there is a genuine NEED for MGC and NPHC groups. They do a lot to help preserve and improve those issues facing their community. Without them, there would be silience about a lot of things. Also, it preserves the culture to which the organization associates itself with.

Believe me, if the MGC and NPHC were gone tommorrow, they would be missed and needed.

It isn't about race, its about culture and pride in that culture.

Who better to address the needs of a culture than those within it?

Plus, who would throw all the cool events they do w/o them? :D

Harking back to my previous post in this thread...

This is EXACTLY what I mean. No, that's NOT joking. That is someone saying that her opinion doesn't count because she's newer in her sorority. Guess what? It doesn't work like that in the NPC. Yes, we listen to the older members and respect their decisions, but they also allow us the same respect. It goes both ways. Being young does not mean you're stupid.

Senusret I: I enjoy reading your posts quite a bit, and I think you often have something good to say, but your reply to my previous post was [I think] off the mark a little, yet at the same time exemplified what I was trying to convey. I shouldn't have to go talk to a Greek Life administrator to understand your group. You should be representing yourselves in a way that doesn't make people think of you in a negative light, or have to go off rumors or hearsay to get information. If it was more readily available, and the process was less secretive, you wouldn't have that. [I'm using the word 'you' in a broad sense here, by the way. Just meaning a variety of NPHC groups.]

fantASTic..... I strongly suggest talking to someone more knowledgeable in real life, like a Greek affairs administrator. I think that what you see on GC and what you experience in real life are valid, but I think it takes something a little "extra" to understand certain nuances about how and why we do things the way we do them. I suggest an administrator because they have the experience and the patience to explain things a little better than we probably will.

That was precisely what my answer to you was. If that's off the mark, then you just don't want to learn more in the first place.

As for the rest of your remarks, well I really don't want to have to hurt your feelings.

The whole purpose of this thread is lost to me. All of our organizations are secretive, and all members of our organizations I'm sure, get defensive when there is negative press associated with the sisterhood or brotherhood that is near and dear to our hearts. That isn't weird--that just means that the people in the organization want to guard it from harm. Do we go around telling everyone how to get into our organizations? No. Is that odd? No. Only people within the organization should know everything about it.

Now that I can agree with.

No one ever said that newer means stupid. It does, however, mean that you do not know as much as older members about the ways of your organization and Greek life in general - no matter what org you're in.

If you really do want to understand another group, then who better to go to than a Greek Life admin? They're going to (ideally) be knowledgeable and unbiased, and if you are looking for deeper info, then seems to me, that'd be an excellent resource. That kind of information isn't going to just be out there to absorb casually off the streets - I certainly don't know very much about the membership process of NPC sororities! If I wanted to know, I would ask someone like a Greek Life admin about it. I wouldn't expect members to just throw that info in my face as I encounter them in day-to-day activities.

And as for the whole "negative light" comment - okay, some NPC/IFC Greeks chose to look down on other groups out of ignorance. And some GDIs (and yes, it's true, NPHC, MGC, and other Greeks) look down on NPC/IFC Greeks out of ignorance as well. So in your opinion the burden should be with the group who is being falsely perceived, rather than those who aren't educating themselves? Why? And what are you, as an NPC Greek, doing to change others' false perception of YOUR group?

Something that I think has been lost here is the fact while there are certainly first time college attendees in families, in many there are not. Because of the alumni/alumnae system in the NPHC many attendees are already quite aware of the NPHC orgs--either through family members, school teachers, neighbors, family friends, etc. And the latter four categories quite often apply even to first time college goers in a family.

My Mom joined Delta as an alumnae initiate the same month I graduated from high school. But I had been exposed to all of the D4 from my Godmother, teachers, advisors counselors, etc. And even from the events that were held in the community.

To be honest I haven't been approached by anyone who knew absolutely nothing about my org or others. So when it does happen I suspect it surprises folx. And again not to mention that some of our orgs have strict rules about engaging in conversation with a prospect about the org. Not because of secrecy, but because of legal liabity. And yes we have had young ladies try to sue when they were not accepted on the grounds that the sorority member they talked to led them to believe that they were qualified and would be accepted.

The Original Poster stated a bias we in the NPHC hear all the time. Basically judging us because he or she feels that we do not have our act together and we ought to be competing against all GLO's to jock for members.

The irony is that someone on the outside of the NPHC would indirectly pay us a compliment to think that we can "steal" potential members away from other GLO's. The FACT is most in the NPHC could give a crippa-crap about "jockeying" for members who choose not to be a part of us. I don't want to accept a girl who rushed ALL the NPC's, then migrated to the MCGLO's talking out of both sides of her mouth, then finally decides and wakes up on day that she wants to be a member of my Sorority. OH HAYLE NO!!!

We need decisive members. Preferably those who came to college to wish they are fine and unique and so petit to those who want to be greek. If one chooses to pursue membership it will be "written in his or her heart".

But I guess, nowadays EVERY kid wants things handed to them on a platter...

Boy, are they in for a rude awakening...

Also - I am not clueless on Greek Life. Every woman in my family who is of age is in a sorority. I knew, and still know, my grandmother's sorority sisters better than some of my cousins or other relatives.

I grew up with them ALL telling me exactly what it was like and what it entailed.
On top of that, most of my closest friends are greek in other organizations. My BFF is in another sorority; I knew what exactly happened and goes on (mostly some of the stupid fights that go on - sometimes just over the color of someone's wall decoration - not a joke).

Off topic: When did proper grammar account for anything on GC? I see you down-play my argument because my typos on a FORUM! If you need to make that excuse for making my argument invalid, then you really cannot find a real reason to prove it wrong. That goes for any topic here -- not just mine.

BTW: I'm not stupid...just absent minded... and cannot type as fast as my mind runs. Proof reading for grammar and spelling does not make sense for an online forum. I give it a glance over because this is a discussion and once something is said....it will have been said.

**A recent study came out that says a person is physically unable to use the logical part of their brain before the age of 24. If you are under 24... BEWARE...and you now have an excuse...**

The source of the "Logic Study"???
 

Deep, very deep. What is the source of this amazing study on the logical part of the brain? I'd like to think that I'm not stupid, too-every time I post I try to type everything just right- if I'm off by even one letter it bothers me. But sometimes I can look over a post several times and still not catch little things, and I'm over 24, so I guess that I really don't have a valid excuse.

Wow this thread is so fun...

[quote=DSTRen13;1496326]In some crazy upside down world yes!

Excellent.

I love your posts. It's really that simple.

It is known that it it is hard for people to proof read their own writing. The mistakes don't always stand out to you, because you wrote them. That is why authors use proof readers. It takes another objective person to do so.

It is silly to condemn someone for their spelling and grammar mistakes on a message board unless they are so extensive that the message is lost and the writer's credibility is questioned.

But then on the other hand who can explain Earpisms? LOL