ASA legacy policy includes adopted and step families.

maybe coincidence is a strong word...I'll try to think of a better one.

The legacy issue is so near and dear to all of us...but I'd like to think that all NPC legacies bring something special to whatever NPC group they join in that they are carrying on the NPC tradition and bringing all of us closer together as Panhellenic sisters.

My mom was initiated into a different NPC at the school she attended...her experience was hers, but I know her love and lifelong dedication to her GLO inspired me to love and be dedicated to my sorority! My sister attended yet another school and chose another GLO. Add in the aunts and cousins and there are a lot of NPCs represented in the gene pool!

Darn it, I specifically ordered up GPhiB legacies both times I was pregnant and still got these stinkin' boys. I wonder what the stats are on boys marrying girls who are members of their mom's NPC????;) I can dream, can't I?

Boys are easily influenced.;)

Hey, bejazd, depending on the ages of those boys, I might have a deal for you, lol.
Hey, I know - Greek Chat can start an arranged marriages thread!:D

I'm afraid I'm quite guilty on this one. Three pregnancies, three boys, zero legacies! My oldest will be a HS junior this year, and is he even considering a college with an AOII chapter? Of course not, but I'm not even close to giving up. If I don't get a legacy by birth, there's always marriage, right? :p

What?! Not considering UK, UofL or any of the other Kentucky schools with AOII? Well, at least you do have a few years to work on him.

The closer they get to marrying age the more you need to make sure you're involved in your alumnae chapters. Also be sure to advise the local collegiate chapter. Then volunteer to chaperone all socials and drag your son as your date. Then be sure to introduce him around to all your sisters!

I agree. It could also be your paternal grandmother who is the member. Your father couldn't have joined that GLO, but it doesn't mean that your family is any less dedicated.

On how many campuses is this really an issue? It sounds like it is mainly the SEC. I know for sure that it hasn't been a problem at any of the chapters I've supervised (Northeast region, primarily). If most of the northern chapters get 2 or 3 legacies going through recruitment, they are thrilled. While I can see some value in NPC having a round table discussion about the issue at those campuses, I would see it mainly as a brainstorming type session. Unless they did toss around the idea of legacy additions, the rest of it is ultimately up to each GLO to deal with. Does every GLO change their whole legacy policy because of a few chapters?

I think maybe educating the membership that some campuses have more legacies than quota would ease the hurt feelings at least.

I think "free legacy" quota would be an even better reason to blindly cut legacies of other chapters.

He's promised that he'll at least visit UK, just to shut me up. He wouldn't go anywhere else in Kentucky, and that's okay. His #1 choice is Michigan. He is considering Vandy as well, so I have a chance!

I'm not a local adviser, but currently an international volunteer and AC member, so I've got the involvement covered. I'm seriously thinking about bringing him to our next Convention, since he'll be heading off to college that fall! :D

Great point! The chapters that I hear of the "more legacies than quota" issue are in Texas, and no where else. As a regional alumnae officer, I'm cc:d on the chapter reports in my region (northeast) and legacies going through recruitment are rarely more than 8 or 10 per chapter.

Kappa's legacy definition is sisters, daughters, granddaughters and great granddaughters. "All other relatives are considered to have special ties to Kappa but are not recruited as a legacy."

I can't speak for any other sorority, but I know that the ADPi Chapter at Auburn University has this problem every year. I've heard they typically have about 1 1/2 x quota worth of legacies go through Recruitment. Alabama's ADPi legacies is increasing each year as well. I believe last year we had nearly 1/2 of quota, the most ever.

ADPi's legacy policy includes sisters, daughters, granddaughters and great-granddaughters. Being adopted doesn't matter. If a pnm was adopted into a family, she is part of that family and entitled to the legacy status.

Steps can be a little tricky. Our general policy is to consider them legacies but leave it up to the individual Chapters to make their own determination on a case by case basis. The vast majority of the time we consider them legacies, but every once in a while a unique situation pops up.

Here's an example I believe I've shared on GC before but it's worth repeating. A few years back we had an active whose father married a woman with a daughter in a whirlwind courtship the previous year. The active barely knew the woman or her daughter and she didn't like them at all.

The pnm step sister didn't tell the active step sister she was going through Recruitment. The pnm reported on her registration form that she was a legacy through the active and had alums write recs identifying her as such without the active's knowledge. The active came to me and asked that she not be considered a legacy. After getting approval from a higher up, we abided by the active's wishes.

AOPi is at a lot of great schools that draws cross-admits with Vandy or OOS Michigan scores. Duke is the first one that comes to mind. Tufts, Cal, Cornell, Lehigh the list goes on....

Kappa Alpha Theta considers daughters, sisters, granddaughters and great-granddaughters as legacies. Steps are considered legacies if the initiated family member considers them to be.

Dee, that's exactly what I'm asking. Maybe those chapters/campuses need to change their individual policies or at the very least say that legacy status is so common there that it alone won't help a girl get a bid.

These legacy policies weren't as much of a problem when a great many women going to college dropped out of school after 1-2 years to marry - their spots opened up and there were plenty of women to fill them. Nowadays that's very rare. We're in the 00s and using policies from the 50s.

And I agree with SoCalGirl, a "free legacy" policy would make the cutting of legacies from their non-legacy group even worse.

I don't think free legacies would be a particularly good policy, but why do you think it would make the cutting of other groups legacies worse?

(If your group wants her, they want her whether or not she's a legacy elsewhere; if they don't want her, what difference will it make to them that she can be "free" someplace else? I'm not trying to be a smarty pants; I'm just missing something. Are you thinking that all other groups would assume that she'll go the legacy chapter whether they really are her first choice or not?)

Personally, a GLO could have a form letter that included data from the high number of legacy chapter and the legacy policy that those chapters could send back to whoever sent the legacy form as soon as they received it. It could basically say in raw form:

We're delighted to learn of your legacy coming through recruitment, and we look forward to meeting her. We have not yet begun to evaluate potential new members, but we wanted to give you a clear understanding of the challenge that our chapter faces regarding legacies.

We understand the unique role they can play in the overall richness of life as an XYZ, but in the last few years, we've had 83, 102, and 78 legacies participate in recruitment while quota has been around 50. We will follow the XYZ legacy policy throughout our recruitment, but we wanted all members with legacies to be aware that it will be impossible for all of them to be placed in our new member class. Please encourage your legacy to keep an open mind about recruitment at our university; we have many excellent chapters for your legacy to join in should she not find a home in XYZ.

And a similar letter could be from campuses which have to cut a significant number of legacies a year.

Excellent!

I'm in superpopular chapter XYZ. New release figure methods tell me I have to cut 50% of the girls who have attended my first round party. I'll feel a lot less guilty cutting Linda the LML Legacy knowing LML can take her as a "free" pledge. Unless she's a movie star who's gorgeous with a 5.0, there's not a lot that's going to make me want to fight for her, especially when there are so many other fabulous women going thru rush.

rec. letters
 

Some of you are kidding yourselves by thinking that elevating yourselves to chapter advisors local alumni chapter officers will make a difference when your daughter/other relative legacy goes through. If you are talking large Southern schools, it will not mean beans. You all know that some chapters have configured themselves as all "Old South", etc.

I can speak of a girl who had personal letters from BOTH the current president and former president of her mother's sorority. (And I am speaking of a huge national.) Her mother had actually helped found a chapter of her GLO at a local college and was currently main advisor. Add to that that the chapter at the school the girl was attending had a field rep. there to help them because that particular group had "ended up 3rd choice on too many girls 1,2,3 choices in final parties. The girl in questions had nearly 1400 SAT, tons of activities, was beautiful and articulate, had been a deb at a Junior League ball, etc. BUT---she was FROM TOO FAR NORTH!!

S0--ladies--if letters and calls from your own national don't guarantee an invite back to prefs., nothing else you can do will.

I totally agree. When I have kids and if I am lucky enough to have a legacy, she will not be listing it on the general recruitment form. I will send information to ADPi (if there is a chapter at the school she is going too). I don't want her legacy status to impede her into not having a wonderful recruitment. Of course I would want her to go ADPi, but if she doesn't feel at home with them, I would just want her to find her home. That is what is important.

Excellent!!!!!

And that's the kind of stuff that I just think is jerky all the way around. Here's a girl who should be an outstanding potential new member, but the local chapter decides to have an attitude and say that she's not a good fit geographically? That's junk.

It's not that I think her mom's involvement should make the difference, but that the organization is probably not being as true to it's founding principles and ritual if they are rejecting well qualified members to take someone who "fits" with them on a hometown level. That's not the point. Even the groups founded in the south have chapters outside the region.

And conversely, if the national group has a problem with who the chapter is choosing, they should address it systematically, not just because on influential pnm got turned down. Yes, membership selection belongs to the active members of the chapter, but they shouldn't be allowed to subvert the values of the group for stupid reasons and tank the chapter overall. You should need to see one particular girl get turned down before you catch on that something weird is going on.

Oh, well said!

And don't kid yourself that subjectivity is limited to big Southern schools. I'll go out on a limb and say that most don't know what a debutante is, don't care where you're from, what your parents do for a living, what your activities resume looks like or what your SAT score is. They care about how you present yourself and whether or not they think they want to spend the next four years hanging out, studying, sharing laughter, tears and a bathroom with you.

If you've got a legacy going thru recruitment the best advice you can give her is to be herself, try to make the best impression she possibly can, give every chapter serious consideration, and know that whatever happens you'll be so happy for her and supportive of whatever works out for her.

So I take it you were in the room when this PNM was formally released and voted on? Because having been through membership selection myself, and having been through the process with a national officer overseeing our recruitment, having been through the process of dropping a legacy, I find it very hard to believe someone would be cut specifically because of her geographic position... especially when there was so much pressure to bid such a high-profile legacy during a recruitment with a national officer present. Not to mention the advisers. There had to be a lot of screaming, crying and pleading to release that little girl from that sorority's recruitment... and they had to have a damn good reason to do so.

I agree that no amount of volunteering or influential letter-writing can guarantee any PNM a place in a sorority. And at the end of the day, it is the chapter's choice. But releasing a legacy, especially one who is high-profile, is not an easy task and has to involve more than a dismissive wave of the hand.

Years ago, a chapter alumna of XYZ State University was actively involved on the local and international level for ADPi. Her two daughters rushed at separate schools. One rushed at the campus where her mother had local influence and joined ADPi. The second daughter rushed at mom's alma mater where mom had international influence and was dropped from ADPi before prefs. I know the girl; she wasn't a fit for this chapter. Mom was pissed and is no longer involved with ADPi.

That ADPi mom was involved enough to know our legacy policy. It's a shame. We lost a terrific alumna volunteer, but I think her non-ADPi daughter and the ADPi chapter in question were better off going their separate ways.

Being a legacy isn't enough of a reason to get a bid. It's going to be your chapter, not your legacy sister's.

Can you tell me why exactly she wasn't a fit for that chapter? I don't know the girl or her mom, obviously, but if you can without divulging MS, what were the aspects of "fit" we're talking about?

No. To do so would divulge too many aspects of MS. But the decision to drop a high profile legacy in this case was not made lightly-- and was not without consequences-- namely, the withdrawal of the mother's financial and volunteer support to the sorority and her chapter of initiation.

That is so sad. I can see how I, personally, would be torn between wanting the chapter to give that legacy special consideration, as a matter of loyalty to the mom, yet also I would not want the chapter to pledge someone they did not want as a sister. That would be depriving the legacy to go out and join a chapter that did truly want and love her.

At some of these schools where the number of legacies is so large, do you think it would help to relax silence rules to allow the chapters to host "legacy" teas close to the start of recruitment? almost like a separate open house? or would that just make the problem worse?

My tendency is to want to eliminate the "legacy" title during recruitment so it isn't limiting the PNMs options. But then again, we all want to give legacies special consideration, but don't know how to do it in a way that is fair to the PNM and demonstrates loyalty to the sister, without giving the impression that a legacy is going to be guaranteed a bid, and without restricting the chapter's ability to choose its own members without outside pressure. any thoughts anyone?

I understand, and I'm not trying to press for more, particularly in this specific case.

But one of things that is frustrating in talking about the legacy issue is that because the chapter can't openly say why they cut her or what was discussed, it kind of leaves the situation seeming that one hand you've got the mom's involvement and years of dedicated service and apparently a strong desire to share this sisterhood bond with her daughter and on the other, we've got "fit."

And at some places, "fit" is the term to use when someone isn't as pretty as the rest of the chapter, which while it's certainly a plus to have gorgeous girls in your chapter, is harder to see as a truly valid reason to drop a legacy in light of most of what many groups officially consider for MS: scholarship, leadership and involvement, character, etc.

So the only times that anyone can ever say why a girl was cut without violating the rules of her own org. is when she is repeating something that she probably shouldn't even know in the first place has someone else not broken the rules of her org.

And it means that we're having a conversation with one half of the evidence missing, you know?

Considering it's a conversation we're not particularly supposed to be having, that's not surprising.

here is my two cents....

the schools that have twice the number of legacies going through rush are also those that:
-have "rules" that only take women from certain towns/ states
-people know you, your family, your pets, etc. and you couldn't hide your legacy status even if you wanted to
-are located in places where women are groomed for recruitment from birth...even their teachers say things like, "if you want to get in to a good sorority when you go to college, then you won't XYZ"

i also think the numbers are a bit inflated. patty pnm might be a legacy to kappa from her grandmother, chi o from her mother, and phi mu through her sister. one pnm counts as a legacy to three groups. there are probaly many women going through in the same situation, so....of course groups can have more legacies than quota.

What do you mean? The why was someone really released part? That I'm with you on: if you validly know it because you were there, then you shouldn't be saying here.

But just talking about legacies and the policies that would be ideal doesn't seem in any way forbidden.

My GLO's legacy policy is pretty open. I'm not completely sure that it should be this easily retrievable, but you can google and get a copy of the policy and form itself.

A policy or a form are public knowledge; the goings-on specific to how a chapter conducts MS on a specific person is not.

I think the numbers are inflated for exactly the same reasons that you do and when you figure in the groups that the PNMs may think that they have special status with because of their aunts, cousins, whatever, even though they aren't really legacies, the list of relatives and connections to groups that many forms ask for is quite extensive.

But when a girl who is a legacy really wants a particular group, it's still a problem if the group doesn't want her even if she still has legacy status at other chapters. So there's no real way to cancel out the inflation in the numbers.

Yeah, and I'm sorry if I was asking for too much earlier. It's just that aspect that makes figuring out how to reform any policies really hard. It's either lame FOAF stories or divulged MS that one is basing the info. on.

I don't mean I need or want to know anything particularly, because I don't even have a real dog in this fight with either a legacy or a chapter that I'm advising, but without a lot of insight into how and why legacies are getting cut, it's hard to know if the policies are working well.

ETA: It's kind of interesting that it's only the legacies who seem to be cut for nebulous or (what people who know the legacy suspect are very) superficial reasons that you ever hear about with legacy policies complaints. When the people who aren't in MS find out that a legacy who they know has a 2.1 gets cut or who has a terrible hometown reputation or zero personality has gotten cut, and I think alumnae do realize and know these things even if the mom doesn't, does that ever become a big deal? It's only the idea that we use terms like "fit" that suggest to some it wasn't for a good reason. Maybe a policy that requires the chapter to list a specific reason would be the best policy of all. I don't even mean that they would have to tell the mom or the sister, just that they would have to own up to IHQ that they cut the legacy of a devoted member because of her appearance.

I'm just saying you're not going to get the other half of the conversation, because it's not one that you (or anyone who was not present) as the right to know. Quite frankly I don't think that a chapter and its advisors would toss a VIP legacy aside for because her nose was too big or for some other frivolus reason. "Fit" is simply that. Yes, girls can be shallow as hell but no one wants to make that phone call. It is a shame that the mother in this case chose to turn her back on her sorority when they only did what she herself had done in MS during her college years.

I think it speaks more toward the entitlement of parents who think that their special snowflake daughter is more deserving than 50 other girls there. If it were me I would be sad that my daughter would not also be my sister, but I would also move on. Particularly if my daughter found her home elsewhere, whether in another sorority or on campus group. (Hell I'm a legacy that didn't go where I was supposed to.)

Sorry. I got my signals crossed. I understood the reason that the half of the conversation was missing. I mentioned it in the post, so I thought you meant something else in addition.

I'm afraid that some legacies at the really big recruitments with a bunch of legacies going through DO get cut for reasons as superficial as anyone. I'd love it to be different, but I'm afraid that's the deal. Since you can't keep them all, there's a license to be pretty cavalier about the whole thing. You've got your ticket to second round, but that's it. And maybe that's like it ought to be, I don't know.

I suspect you are right in the particular case we were talking about because of the mother's involvement at that chapter and they wouldn't have written it off so easily, but I'll be honest, I'd be like that mom. At the point I've worked for a chapter for years, and I send my (seemingly well qualified) kid through rush and you cut here, I'm probably done with you. Your rejection of my (hypothetical) kid is going to be taken pretty personally. It's not the whole because she's my little (hypothetical) perfect snowflake, but because she's my (hypothetical) flesh and blood and you cut her.

I don't think I feel that way if I knew her GPA was way lower than average or that she didn't have involvement and leadership or any of the factors that are built in to consider. And if she was borderline autistic or freakishly shy, I think I'd know that too and understand that might get her cut too.

But "fit" isn't going to get it done as a good explanation. I've, as have we all, watched 18-22 year old women choose their social groups and the reasons that they use are not always good ones. I accept that membership is in the hands of the undergraduate chapter, but that doesn't mean I believe they are going to make good decisions all the time. And at the point I have direct personal experience with a group at a chapter making jerky decisions, I'm not going to keep working for them, assuming that I had been.

I think my reaction to my legacy being cut would depend on how my daughter felt about it. I wouldn't be happy if she felt she fit in and was cut, but I wouldn't hold it against the entire sisterhood.

LEGACIES
 

Guess I opened a can of worms with that post about the highly-recommended legacy and her mother! I felt it belonged here because you are all talking about doing away with legacy info. and all that.
I actually WAS in the room, at least the room with my wife when the call came because it was my daughter who was in the middle of all this.

I lived through the phone calls and all that went with them. I can shed a little more light on it I think. When my wife was in the middle of the installation of the chapter she helped found, the whole national team was in our home. My daughter, who was in high school, shared her bathroom with travelling consultants. She personally met the whole national officer team and they--at that point--said that they were impressed with her and that the president (not her title) wanted to personally write the rec. for my daughter wherever she went, if they had a ___ chapter.

From the first party, something was wrong. My daughter called after first round (more than 9 parties) and said that she felt like she'd made a friend at every party except for ___. Her quote was, "If I walked across campus, I now could speak to someone from every chapter except for __." My wife and I both felt that she was maybe reading it wrong.

She was invited back to the max for second round, including two "old guard" houses that many other girls were cut from. We knew little about Old South rush, but one girl said to her, "You are so lucky to be going back to ___; they even cut so-and-so from Dallas!" Anyway, in all this, she definitely began to consider other houses, considering her "funny feeling" about my wife's GLO.

Day before pref. we go the call from her, not the chapter. That came hours later from the visiting field rep. who found the the rec.letters for her and some other girls in an envelope on the kitchen table. The girls (or alums!) had not wanted her to see them during the voting the night before. My daughter was invited back to AMAZING houses, and had been cut only by my wife's house. We talked it over and she chose 3 houses for pref. My wife, of course, was devastated, so I stayed on the phone to talk to my daughter.

I can tell you all that it made me see a whole new side of her. "Daddy," she said, "I'm not so mad they cut me, but how could they treat Mom like this? She's given years to ___; how could they disrespect her like that and use me?" I WAS SO PROUD THAT SHE WAS ANGRY AND HURT FOR MY WIFE, NOT FOR HERSELF.

I asked her where her heart was and she told me ___. This was a house that I knew was a top house. I know you all hate the "tiers" thing, but even when we visited campus, it was apparent particular house was very highly regarded. Interestingly enough, her mom's GLO was considered very average really; we both picked up on it in fact.

So--(and you'll all hate me for this)--I TOLD HER TO SUICIDE ___. I asked her if she'd be happy anyplace else and she said NO. She decided if she did not get it, she'd go thorough rush the next semester. I left it at that and did not tell my wife.

Horrifyingly enough, the next day (Saturday) my wife hosted 12 alumni sororoity women for a training session for her chapter. Can you imagine how that felt for her? She kept it together and told the women who asked that she did not know yet what our daughter was going to do.

That evening I told her that I told our daugter to suicide ___. Of course she had a fit, but I said that after all she'd gone through, she deserved her first choice and that was where her heart was. At about midnight we were still lying in bed awake and my wife said, "What if she gets nothing? Everyone on her floor is rushing; she will be so alone."

You guessed--we got up at 5 AM and drove the 4+ hourse to her school. We called her for breakfast and told her that we just wanted to surprise her and see how the "rush run" went---(not even mentioning that we had other motives!). Well---after we went back to her dorm before noon, the phone rang and it was Panhellenic---SHE GOT HER FIRST CHOICE!!
We were so thrilled for her: she cried, my wife cried, and I went in the bathroom and cried! I think quota was 48 or 50.

We drove around looking at all the decorated houses and when we drove by my wife's GLO she said, "Well, that's their loss!" We drove home exhausted but much relieved.

The next evening the phone rang and it was the National President. In short, here is what she said: ___ chapter made up their minds they were not going to have your daughter shoved down their throat. She said it would not have mattered who she was. She said when she called the house after the field rep. had told her what happened with her rec. letter, she said her husband had to make her hang up she was so furious!

We both were able to laugh about it after that. Yes, my wife's heart was broken and yes--my daughter got in the middle of what we guys call a "pissing match." But she had found her home and--in retrospect--it was a great fit for her.

She has been out of college for three years and had an AMAZING GREEK EXPERIENCE!! She loved her sisters and was invited to visit them in California, Texas, and Connecticut, places she would never have gone otherwise. She was in one wedding in Phoenix and one in Houston. She also attened one sister's wedding in the Bahamas! We also had her sisters come to the Midwest to visit here here!

In the long run, she found her home and had such an amazing rush for a "little Northern girl." I know this is L-O-N-G, but I wanted to tell you the whole story. We are now--and have been--a three Greek family and are proud of it. My wife continued to advise her local chapter for two more years, and the next summer at convention got a huge award as an Outstanding Advisor. I'll never forget when she came home she threw it on the bed and said, "Well, here's the payoff for ____." It an awful thing to say, but we both felt it. I don't mean she hates her own group, but now is very careful about writing recs. In fact, she at one time functioned as local rec. chair for our area. She did resign that in a hurry!

For those of you who write those RUSH THREADS, this was a short one! Here is the only hint I will give you. The day after we returned home, on a Monday, I called a flower shop near her campus and sent her a big bouquet of her sorority flowers---it was meant to be, I guess, she always did love blue irises!

SWTXBelle, your position seems completely reasonable. I don't think I'd hold it against the entire organization, and I like to think I'd give the chapter another shot after I knew that particular group of girls were gone. But if you move on, you move on, so as you might get involved in supporting your hypothetical kid's chapter, who knows whether you'd come back to your own?

And think most people would agree if that they wouldn't be particularly upset if a chapter cut a daughter who wasn't interested in the chapter. It's only if you think she's dreaming of your GLO that it would hurt you.

And legacies being interested in the legacy GLO is a peculiar aspect of the legacy policies too. I wrote a bunch of recs this year, and as I was filling them out, I would think a little bit about the chances that I thought a girl would end up in any of her legacy chapters if she had them. For every chapter that I though would cut a girl, there was a girl that I knew wouldn't be interested in that chapter of her legacy organization, or so I think. We'll see in a few more weeks, I guess.

But it is weird, and I don't think I'm alone in this, that I'm willing to give the girls who don't go with the legacy chapter a pass in a way I won't give the group. What accounts for this unfairness on my part?