I guess then, it is in the eye of the poster.

All GLOs were started with a Religion back ground whether Christian or Jewish.

Being reborn again, I am not really sure what that means?

Were those before nothing but sinners?:confused:

Do they beleive in a Single God?

But do you see why:

1) When, as you acknowledge, the term "born-again" is used predominantly in evangelical circles (and I know well the reference in John);

2) When, as you acknowledge, Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians (and you can add Presbyterians and others to that list) have a very different idea of "when" salvation occurs and do not identify it with a moment of "being saved" or "accepting Christ," which the term born-again implies; and

3) You say: "If you are not a born-again Christian, you don't know what it means to 'act Christian' or possibly even what it means to be Christian,"

Christians who don't share your particular evangelical viewpoint might understand you to be saying that they are not really Christians? Because that is the point here. And that, I think, is the source of at least some of the distrust and antagonism seen on some campuses.

No, Tom, they weren't.

The earliest GLOs, starting with Phi Beta Kappa, were started with an Enlightenment, humanist or rationalist background. After all, the very motto of Phi Beta Kappa, "Philosophy, the Guide (Helmsman) of Life," is a challenge to the view that God, Scripture or Religion is the "Guide of Life." The earliest GLOs were cut from a similar Enlightenment/rationalist/Deist cloth. It wasn't until later that GLOs began to take on a more Christian, and later Jewish, focus.

And many GLOs were were specifically founded with a non-sectarian focus, seeking to overcome divisions based on religion.

Drinking in letters is a choice BYX as an organization made. I understand that drinking in letters has nothing to do with Christianity. I do agree that being in a Christian fraternity does not mean you are a Christian. There are some of those Christian fraternities that call people who don't believe the same as them non Christian but that is an individual chapter thing not a national thing. I think it's perfectly possible to be in a regular Greek Life organization and be a Christian. Life is about choices, and if you make the right choices then you won't have to sacrifice your morals or things like that. We call ourselves a Christian fraternity because we are different from any other regular fraternity. If that offends people then that sucks. And to cover the question brought up earlier as far as what defines Christian acts etc. I don't have a problem with drinking. I have a problem with drunkeness. I don't believe that sleeping around is Christian. I know you may say that is stereotypical, but it does happen. It's not all that happens, but at some fraternities it does happen. I don't know why regular fraternities and Christian fraternites won't commit to building better relationships and working together.

BYXEagle - "sucks" what? I've always forbidden my children and students from saying "That sucks" because of the origin of the phrase. So I'm interested in the fact that you used it when discussing your Christian organization.
And, long story short, the conflict between the so-called Christian fraternities and traditional ones comes from any GLO acting holier-than-thou. Once you start deciding who is a Christian and who is not you are bound to engender ill-will. I think Christ-like humility would go a long way to fostering relationships with other groups.

What do you mean by your last sentence?

There I may disagree with you as most have a Religious of sort back ground in their Ritual and Tenents.

That is what they Were based on, not what goes on today?

Wait? Am I finally going to get an answer about why the phrase 'that sucks!' is so offensive in the US? I'm not being snarky, I really don't know.

I could ask you the same thing -- I have no idea what you mean in your last sentence.

What I meant when I said "And many GLOs were were specifically founded with a non-sectarian focus, seeking to overcome divisions based on religion," was precisely that. Starting in the early 20th Century, a number of GLOs were founded on an explicitly non-sectarian basis, so that members of any religion (granted, at the time, that would mainly have meant Protestants, Catholics -- the two groups had little to do with each other then -- and Jews) could be members and could participate without either compromising their own religious values or feeling coerced into religious practices not their own.

And you may disagree if you wish, but the earliest Greek groups had a more philosophical basis as opposed to a religious basis. Your statement, to which I was responding, that all GLOs were founded with a religious background is, like most overgeneralizations, simply not true. Had you said many rather than all, there would be no disagreement.

Oral sex? I always assumed that.

ETA: Hence, that "blows" being equivalent.

Yes, Drolefile, you WIN! Nicely worded, too.

Ha ha, I was wondering if there was some deeper meaning there that I was missing. :p

I love grape juice and thank God (in honor of this thread) for Welch.
I also love wine that tastes like it's straight from the grapevine.

I am humored that people use such a magnifying glass when looking at the lives of others. People in the Bible days drank in excess and did a lot of other things. I won't assume that the people who Christianity has touted as "holier than thou" were above the influence when it came to everything.

Oooooooh I think this is my number one pet peeve, people who think they're "holier than thou." I was just talking about this yesterday oooooooh I can't stand that!!! I can befriend just about anyone that is an overall good person, no matter what their religious affiliation is but if you constantly profess to have all the answers, criticize, ridicule, put down, judge, complain, and point out the faults of others (as if you have no faults...yeah right), I cannot be around you. Ooooooh...okay I've vented. That's my 2 cents.:D

I can't stand overly critical people, in general, who pick apart everything all of the time.

But if someone is going to think they are better than everyone else, I prefer it to be for entertaining and perhaps provable things like intellect and not based on spirituality or religious value judgments. :D

man, that dude was weak, thats all. and i hate when people confuse spirituality with religion. they are two TOTALLY different things. you can be spiritual with out being religious.

well i cant comment for the other orgs...but Phi Beta Sigma does was founded on christian principles, but that by no means makes us a christian fraternity. we are a social fraternity. we have members of all faiths.

And vice versa.

****

If your frat or sorors are out acting a fool, does that mean that the organization doesn't uphold certain standards and is conflicting with your lifestyle or faith? No.

If people are struggling with that, they are struggling with their own convictions and are weak. Don't blame that on religion or the organization. Grow up and take responsibility for yourself. If that means you still must disaffiliate, that's your business but don't try to attach your decision to everyone else's asses.

Great points, MysticCat. The only thing I'd add right now is that the founding of "explicitly non-sectarian" social GLOs began in the late 1800s, just a little before the "early 20th century." For example, say, Pi Lambda Phi. Admittedly, more were founded a few years later, in the time frame you mentioned.

EXACTAMUNDO!!! omg, this fool on facebook, got some note bout how the NPHC are sinners, we worship false gods and whole heap of other foolishness. shit was ridiculous. these religious zealots are impossible to debate with. they're right & we're wrong.

I think Hatchett got to that dude and he's probably so happy right now that his movement to rid the world of GLO's made the news. IMO these people wake up one morning feeling guilty or someone has made them feel guilty about the time they spend serving others through their organizations (and I don't know why time spent serving others is not seen by some as God's work but I digress). Anyway they feel incredibly guilty because they don't know how to balance their time and someone ridicules them for not being in church more or for not spending as much time with their congregations, etc. etc. and instead of trying to balance their time better, they see it as a sign that they need to denounce their organizations to make more room for God. And some of them set out on a mission (Hatchett) to try and destroy greek life because they are so mad at themselves for their neglect. In reality, they're not mad at the orgs...they're mad at themselves because they couldn't balance their own lives.

I'm mad that they published those fools' websites though. They do not need any free publicity.

If the members of your own religious congregation are out there acting a fool (up in the strip club Saturday night, in church Sunday morning), does that mean Christianity (or any other religion) doesn't uphold certain standards? When the "Christian" slaveowners were using the Bible to justify the treatment and ownership of slaves, did we condemn all of Christianity?....Don't get me started!

Thanks for the correction. I was working off my memory and the orgs I could think of were early 20th Century orgs, but you are exactly right -- Pi Lambda Phi was founded with the explicit goal of establishing "a fraternity which shall eliminate all sectarianism" in 1895.

People can't see the irony of it all.

lol, word tho. yo, Hatchett is THEE worst. i swear, he makes my blood boil. him and a few others. and the sad part about them is, that they're "ex-NPHCers", and they only focus their hate/mission on the D9 orgs, and nothing else. and dont even try to show them your view of this...they'll throw scripture after scripture @ you, IF they even acknowledge you.

http://clarion.facebook.com/note.php...23214#comments
http://www.dontgogreek.com/
http://www.divinetruthishere.com/

I know some Ques who know Hatchett and was around when he was a Nasty dog acting wild and crazy, running around in gold boots. They told me that he pledged grad and then tried to hang out and kick it with the undergrads all the time. They said dude ate, slept, isht, and breathed Omega. No wonder he felt so bad about himself when he got "saved." I told them they should set up a website and post pictures of him acting a fool....now you know people in glass houses.........well, you know the rest.

Soror, I don't get that either. When I first got into our bluetiful sisterhood I had so many church folk who questioned why and was telling me that maybe I was not aware of this but we as christians are not supposed to join sororities because they are secret societies strictly forbidden by the Word of God and that I can't serve God and be in a sorority because the two will clash and the Word forbids us from putting anything before God, yadayadayada. I cannot for the life of me understand how some church folk could feel that being a part of an organization that helps our community is forbidden or is somehow against christian principles. Whatever happened to the scriptures in Matthew 25:37-45? Its like some church folk miss that scripture! My question to them is always this: Are you serving the poor or those less fortunate than yourself? If not you might want to read Matt 25:37-45. They usually leave me alone then ;)

i feel exactly where you're coming from. and i've always said...we're not secret organizations, we're organizations with secrets. just like the Masons, OES, Skull & Bones. secret organizations are exactly that...SECRET!!! you wont know about them at all, cuz they're......................SECRET!!! i mean, common sense goes out the window when deal wit these religious nuts. I'm definitely not a church goer...havent been in a long time, but i do believe in god & jesus...and i'm content with that.

and to rhoyaltempest, i know bout hatchett's history. i read up on him. yeah i knew he pledged grad chapter, and he's also a mason. i remember i was on one of the blue & white messageboards, and we were talkin about these religious nuts, and his name came up, and they posted some link with some audio of him sayin some asinine shit. i was just completely dumb-founded. also there was some AKA who denounced also and was preaching the same bullshit hatchett spews. THESE are the type of pplz i look on with disgust, cuz they were on the inside, and know that we're community involved orgs. yeah, the pledge process aint exactly the most christian thing out there, but hey...it is what it is(i know that aint come out right, but fuck it). what pisses me off the most, is that they try to get members to denounce & expose our rituals & private information. yo, i'm not a violent person by nature, but if i ever came across someone tryin to put Sigma info out there, we gonna have a problem...someone gonna be fucked up, and it aint gonna be me.

It's really sad to say and some may not like this but the truth is that there are a whole lot of church folk who could benefit from reading a book or two besides the Bible. NOT ALL, but some Christians are the most uneducated and narrow minded people I think I've ever met in my life. Beyond spewing Bible verses, many of them really don't have a clue about what God REALLY wants from us, what being a Christian REALLY means beyond the dogma and propaganda that man has created, and without the many different interpretations of others. Nor do they understand the needs of human beings, this thing called Life, the CHOICES that God has given us, the Sciences, and the World in general. The overwhelming amount of self-righteousness, hypocrisy, and ignorance is the reason that I don't belong to a congregation today. I have a great relationship with God but I don't need or want these people around me.

All I have to say to these org members that are allowing these people to influence them by denouncing their organizations is that if you look in your heart, you'll find the answers you seek. How can something that fills you up so much on the inside...things like having sisterhood and brotherhood, things like serving others in need, how can it be wrong? Can you make CHOICES and decide not to be the wild and crazy frat brother or the promiscuous sorority girl? you sure can. Can you control what everyone does in your organization or church congregation? NO! The bottom line is that NO ONE IS PREVENTING YOU FROM BEING THE GODLY PERSON YOU CAN CHOOSE TO BE no matter what organization you belong to.

As you can tell, I'm a little pissed.:mad: People need to have minds of their own.

I love your post. It's about how I feel. I personally think that those who blindly follow the tired opinions of others are actually an insult to God. If He created us in his image, then wouldn't He want us to use our minds to the fullest potential? Not become irritable, self righteous drones? There are some great people I know who happen to be very religious (not just Christians, but the majority are). They are also intelligent, thoughtful, and attentive to interpretation of religion. Unfortunately it's that other group that seems to be the loudest and most prominent, especially down south.

It is true that many organizations were founded on some religon and that some things these organizations participate in (creating lude t shirts) are not kosher with the religon. In my opinion, it is just a t shirt. My chapter has never created any t shirts with anything that could be considered bad on them. However it's a buncha college students creating t shirts, of course theyre gonna be somewhat questionable. If chapters want to create t shirts that make themselves look like idiots, then fine, they can do whatevr they want. Also keep in mind that most of these organizations were found over 100 years ago. Times were differant then. Religon was differant then. Many fraternities had racist clauses in them. It was a differant time. Keep that in mind. Mike.