I'd still put my money on an Alumnae Panhellenic checking all transfer students than ANY information such as a SSN any day of the week. Anyone who has sat through a bid matching or a planning session of any sort that involves Advisors or Alumnae Panhellenic ladies know that they are a force to reckon with!

One thing about the social security numbers... When I started college I didn't have one. (I have no idea why) The university gave me a temporary number similar to the ones they give students from abroad. So, unless I'm mistaken, my sorority doesn't have my real SSN.

I'm glad of that too. I'm completely opposed to some huge database with my personal information in it. Especially if its only purpose is to weed out a tiny number of girls who might try to join two different NPCs.

And once again for the record (I think I've told this story on GC at least 4 times) my chapter had a sister who had transfered from another school. By the time I pledged it was pretty much common knowledge within the chapter that she had been a member of another NPC at her old school. Strangely, I don't remember anyone really caring about it. I know I didn't. She was a great KD sister.

I'm not advocating it, just stating a fact.


*edited to add*

Funny, I just checked my mail and the current issue of The Angelos came in. The headline across the front reads, "The Great Imposters: Identity Thieves Want to Steal Your Good Name" One of the tips the article gives on how to protect yourself - "Don't carry your Social Security card in your wallet.... Give it out only if absolutely necessary and first ask to use another identifier." Later in the article it states that, "toward the end of last year, more than 800,000 Social Security numbers were hijacked from a restricted UCLA database." Yep! I'm keeping my SSN private! Thanks for agreeing with me, KD.

I am also against the SSN thing as many members of my chapter are not citizens of the U.S. and don't have them. Plus, I honestly wish my nationals had no requested it of me. I do get mail for a "my org." credit card and many other things I neither requested nor need. It's annoying enough and it's hard enough to keep your information private these days. :mad:

Just to update...

I was calling Kappa Delta Headquarters today anyway, so I decided to ask if they kept Social Security Numbers of members. They do NOT. Some NPCs might, but since KD doesn't I'm guessing that some others might not either.

There goes the giant database idea.

This sounds good to me. Does every school have an Alumnae Panhellenic group?

No, which is why it is a terrible idea. At a school with only one NPC there isn't even a Panhellenic at all.

Well, on the upside, a school with only one NPC probably doesn't have that many transfer students rush each year, so it would be easier for the group to track the girl's history down.

I was trying to imagine what could work at UGA with 1000-1200 PNMs, and I think each chapter checking the background of each transfer that they actually give a bid to is the only way. As long as you could look into it before initiation, it would work.

I wouldn't want a SSN database; I tend to think that transfers who come from schools with NPC orgs are probably limited enough that each chapter could do the research if the chapter cared enough.

No, there are a ton of people who transfer from all of the other state schools, many of whom have several NPCs. These girls are from all over the midwest and it would be impossible to track them down. I'd have to call my friends at the University of Wisconsin and get them to go through the Greek stalkerbook and even that isn't going to be 100% correct.

How many do you mean by tons? Are you doing this after they are extended bids or before rush? How big are your new member classes?

Couldn't you call the chapters directly at the campuses where the girls came from? Honestly, how many transfers did you bid last year? How many came from schools with more than five NPC groups?

(Remember no NPCs are at two year schools.)

ETA: I realized this sounded really confrontation with all the questions. I didn't really mean it too. I'm just trying to understand what your actual experience has been. Even in a 50+ girl pledge class at UGA, there aren't probably even five sophomores or above in most groups; a good percentage of the sophomores may have been on the same campus the year before, and of the transfers, some probably came from schools with very few NPC groups. It doesn't seem like it would be hard to track down once you only had to track down the ones who you wanted to join your group, as opposed to screening everyone going through rush.

You can keep a database using other factors aside from Social Security numbers. I wouldn't want to give mine out, either, but being able to search for individuals in a large database may be beneficial in some ways. Not that I think it will ever happen--it most likely won't. :)

I agree, and the database, if it existed, would be very handy, maybe too handy for marketing and advertising possibilities.

But I think groups could do more to watch our for this even without a database.

We haven't had "rush" since the mid-90s. Our NM classes are generally around 10 although up to 40 girls come to our recruitment events. Generally at least 5 transfers come through our recruitment and I think it would be absolutely absurd if I called Kappa at Lawrence or Phi Mu at LaCrosse and said "Hi, so and so is rushing my sorority, did she join your chapter?" I wouldn't give anybody who called our house and asked that the time of day. The girls in my chapter do not have the time to call every sorority at the other school the girl came from on top of classes and recruitment nor the time to email a list of those girls to the alumnae who are at least 60 miles away and busy with work or grad school. It's seriously absurd for you to think that this would work. This isn't like UGA or Bama where many alumnae are not working and have more free time for volunteering and alumnae panhellenic. This is essentially a tech school.

And yes, I do know that community colleges don't have NPCs. I also know that grass is green, the sky is blue, and I am sick of ladies who lunch assuming that every chapter is exactly like theirs.

Question...

Why wouldn't a database that simply had full names, birthdates, and affiliations not work? Even if a woman has a relatively common name, here's how it would work.

Jessica Marie Smith was a member of ABC at East Coast University. She transfers to West Coast University, goes through recruitment, and receives a bid to XYZ.

Especially since she's a transfer, someone from XYZ would check the national NPC database. Forty hits for Jessica Marie Smith come up, but only two initiated at ECU. One Jessica was born 7/8/1971 -- so it's obviously not her -- and another Jessica was born 2/27/1988. Voila, a name and birthday match. A quick phone call to the chapter at ECU or ABC headquarters confirms this girl's identity.

I don't know about everyone else, but I had to verify my identity (via driver's license or school ID which had my legal name and birthday on it) before I could sign up for recruitment because of age restrictions.

I really think this would work, and it would be as simple as a sorority updating their own member databases. It seems relatively easy enough. I'm sure mistakes would be made and if a girl changed her legal name from the time she was in one GLO before she rushed another it might make things sticky, but that seems unlikely. If a PNM is so psycho that she'd take great measures to hide her legal identity in order to cheat the system, my guess is she wouldn't last very long in a sorority anyway.

Off topic....but what time of age restrictions did you school have with recruitment?

I think this would be a lot more efficient to search and not run the risks of giving out an SSN.

Nobody has had "rush" since the mid 90s, and I apologize for saying rush rather than recruitment. If you don't care enough to find out if people you initiate were members of a NPC group at their previous campuses, it hardly reflect poorly on people and groups who would make it a priority. If you are too busy to follow up on the few girls who you want to initiate who are transfers (which sounds like it would be far fewer than ten a year), and you wouldn’t help another chapter with similar information, then you get what you deserve.

You’re basically saying you don’t care about the pasts of the girls you are going to make sisters. You’re not in my group, so if you’re cool with that, it’s none of my business.

I will note that many of your observations about Greek life in the south are wildly inaccurate, but if you’d assume all that, you’re not worth the time to correct it.

I think you'd be surprised at just how much I know about rush in the south. :rolleyes:

I would never give some random KD or Pi Phi information about my sister. How do I know they are who they say they are? I wouldn't want my sisters to tell you anything about me without my consent.

Sure, it could only be five girls a semester. But that's 5 girls x 5 NPCs at their previous campus...25 phone calls that may or may not even give me actual information...and keep in mind I would have to drive SEVEN HOURS to my chapter to find out who these girls are. You seem to think I have that free time, or that the girls in my chapter have the time to compile dossiers on new members. We don't. We don't put girls on kitchen duty. We are a small chapter.

The Excel spreadsheet I can get behind. That takes 5 minutes.

I believe you had to be over 17 either due to local panhel rules or because there was a chapter (Chi O maybe?) in which you had to be 17+ to join.

Maybe it was over 18 for liability reasons? I don't remember, I was almost 19 so it was a moot point for me either way.

Ya'll haven't even mentioned calling the Greek Advisor at the other campus.

Example: Jessica Marie Smith fills out a recruitment application and notes that she is a transfer student (because we have to check GPAs) from East Coast University. I shoot an email over to ECU's Greek Advisor and ask them to check their roster database for her name. If a Jessica Marie Smith shows up, we do some more investigative work.

Of course, this is assuming that Greek Advisors keep their roster information in easily searchable databases, which I think most do now in order to run GPA reports easier. Instead of calling 10 NPC chapters at ECU, I call (or email) one person.

Sure, bigger universities might see this as too time consuming, but it's up to each campus Panhellenic to decide how concerned they want to become with this issue. If a chapter member is suspicious about someone, they can bring it up with the Greek advisor.

PsychTau

Sounds good to me.

Yep. I agree. The greek life office would be the first place that I would call. I would think they would have lists of members, and if it became a priority, then they certainly could. If people were worried about who was really asking for the info., the calls could be from one school official to another, rather than chapter to greek life office.

Nope...not us.

Seems to me that on most campuses, it's difficult enough to get the information from the Greek Life office on the students going through recruitment at the school, much less trying to field questions from other universities about transfer students!!!

This debate is silly to me -- I just don't think it's a widespread problem.

I don't think it's a widespread problem either, but I think that unfortunately when some people learn that the chances of getting caught are low, it could become more common.

I'll admit I've had very limited contact with Greek Life offices. You may be right that they aren’t forthcoming with info.

But since the number of transfers in any new member class is often very small, it's probably not insurmountable to check into a girl's background. Calling greek life, calling chapters, calling the person who wrote a rec for the girl. If you really care, it probably can be accomplished.

I don't think the chances of getting caught are that low. It's a smaller world than most think. Someone who meets Susie at State U is going to know someone that Susie knew at U of State. Or, Susie is going to slip eventually.

The schools I'm used to working with often have transfer students. It seems like kids school hop these days.. from Michigan State to Michigan, from Central Michigan to Michigan State, on and on. A lot of people don't choose the right college for them from the start.

We can't get grades from a lot of schools in my area. Some of the schools in my area don't recognize the Greeks as student organizations. Trying to get contact phone numbers for all the chapters at a school like Eastern Michigan or Wayne Statewould be really hard, but people transfer from those two schools to other schools often.

I've been an Alpha Gam for 23 years now and have been involved on the local and regional level for 19 of those years and have never had a chapter have this happen.

Again, with the database thing, you still have to someone who can add all their members to an NPC database. That's a lot of entries in a year. And, all 26 NPCs would have to have at least one person authorized to add that data. Who would be authorized to look up that data? An advisor? A Collegian? Where would it be stored? How would they access it? How do you keep it secure? It just doesn't seem feasible to me.

We have other issues that are much more serious upon which we need to be focusing our very limited resources, in my opinion.

Edited: Sorry, I posted before I saw AGDee's note.


On an additional logistically note, if you did start the all NPC database, it wouldn't really have to be retroactive very far, which was an earlier concern. There'd be a substantial benefit even if one started with 2007 initiates and simply went forward. Within a few years, you'd have almost everyone likely to attempt it, unless there's a big issue with serial AIers which we've yet to discuss.

It probably is a really different issue at campuses where a lot of non-freshman rush. What percentage of a new member class would you say are transfers where you are AGDee?

I don't know for sure, because we don't even keep those statistics. We just have stats on class level in the reports that I get from chapters. I'm not even sure that the members know that when someone goes through recruitment whether they are a transfer or not. I would imagine it would come up eventually during their new member period. I can say that it's common for chapters to recruit sophomores and juniors up north here though. I also know that at 3 campuses in Michigan, I've been working very hard to get advisors to get GPAs from the advisors of other chapters on campus so that we can get scholarship ranks for our chapters. This finally happened at Wayne State this year, after at least 6 years of trying. Trying to get info about greek membership at other universities up here would be a real challenge.

It's interesting because some campuses publish the grade rankings on websites. (Yes, most that I've looked at are southern, but not all). Is it a difference in the university's attitude about student privacy, or is the greek culture itself that different, do you think? Can you speculate based on the campuses you know that do compile rankings and those that don't?

Again, I have no idea how big a problem joining an additional group is, but I think it'd be helpful if chapters knew how they could check. (Even when as you said, they hear from a friend at another campus, how would they verify the rumor?) Being able to say, "this is how we check" would seem like a deterrent to me.

I know that at Michigan State, the chapters get a printout from the university showing the GPA of each individual chapter member. (At least, they did when I was there back in the 90s, and I'd assume they do the same now.)

Bowling Green State University also gives such a printout to the chapter (they even sent me one as the advisor), and they also compile a list of chapter averages so that you know where you rank.

Those are the only 2 schools here "up north" that I have firsthand knowledge of, so I can't comment on any others. Guess I just assumed that all universities provided the info. :o

Many universities provide academic reports for their Greek orgs. Oftentimes they will provide a detailed report to a chapter officer (President or Academics chair) and sometimes to an advisor, and national if requested (some schools just send it). The chapter averages are typically public information because it is virtually impossible to determine individual member GPAs from an average.

Regarding the dual membership issue- it isn't an immediate solution, but this is the reason why it is crucial for all chapters and Panhellenics to require the signing of a Membership Recruitment Binding Acceptance Agreement (i.e. "Pref card") or a COB form and to have them on file with the Greek Life office. Even more important is the explanation of the purpose of the form to PNMs before and when they sign it. If you don't know what you're getting yourself into, it's difficult to be held responsible for a rule you weren't aware of.

We can usually get grades for the members in our chapters (although this is relatively new on a couple campuses too). But, we also have campuses (thinking Canadian chapters) where the orgs aren't recognized because they're all female groups so the Universities don't have anything to do with them, but kind of tolerate the idea that they exist. We cannot always get comparative GPAs for other NPCs to know what rank we are. It's a different culture and does vary greatly by school.

Maybe I'm mistaken....
 

but for AXiD, whenever we pledge a new member and send in their paperwork, we have to submit an "anticipated" initiation date. Prior to that date, FHQ sends us back a letter granting us permission to initiate those women. Granted, we've never received a "no you may not initiate this person" from FHQ - but I figured if we were being given permission to initiate them, then there must not have been a membership problem...

I'm pretty sure the age limit thing doesn't apply across the board...we've had 16 year olds go through.

At a campus like mine was, with deferred recruitment, this wouldn't have been a problem unless you skipped a grade or two. I suppose if this happened in a school with competitive recruitment, your age status would be taken into account during recruitment if you were to rush later.

It's entirely possible that whichever Rho Pi told me about the age restrictions at the time (she said that you had to be a legal adult for liability reasons and so your parents didn't have to sign off on everything) was giving me bad information, and that the greek life office just wanted PNMs birthdays to know who was underage so they could be prepared to be in contact with their legal guardians if they were to join a chapter. I just took her word for it because it seemed to make sense, and it actually kind of still does if you think about it...I'd think it'd be a pain in the ass to have to get all those parent signatures on insurance forms for greek week, softball tournaments, parties, etc. for an minor member. I would also think there would be special risk managment issues for minors. But I know it happens in chapters all over the place, so I'm sure it works out just fine.

That said, I don't think we had anyone under 18 go through recruitment in the years I was there, so it wasn't ever a problem from what I can recall.

Either way, the greek life office (and later my chapter, as we filled out the new member paperwork) definitely had my birthdate on file, and I had to verify my birthday with legal ID.

I was 16, but I did have to have my parents sign the financial statements.

It's interesting to see this discussion about NMs being minors.

I know that it was definitely a different kind of time when our organizations were founded, but I recall reading somewhere that several our Founders were teenagers themselves when they established our organizations.