While I don't necessarily agree with the lawsuit, but who started the media frenzy that has lead to the lawsuit? Was it the chapter members that were granted alumnae status or was it the university?

::::::::::ducking:::::::::::

I doubt that really strong chapters have much to worry about if their reputations on campus are solid. I agree that to PNMs, reputation is paramount, but local reputation may matter more than national rep. if the chapter is highly desirable already.

Weaker chapters working to rebuild and strengthen are likely to be affected the most, and they are already in the most precarious position. Questionable local reputation plus complicated national image crisis equals low turnout on bid day, I'm willing to bet.

I just can't see how staying out of the news isn't the best course of action. Maybe we'll be amazed at how wrong the information in the press is. (Heck, I agree that the media generally keeps reporting the story they know gets attention. Sometimes they are a little more casual about following up with the real details.)

ETA: Oh, NutBrwHair, me too. I don't want to get caught in the crossfire I think is about to break out. Tom, did you post that error intentionally? KD????? Correct it, man.

Um, it's Delta Zeta.

So does this mean that the members were given alumna status, not because of their apperance or race, but because they had low-self esteem? :confused:

Duh, only confident girls allowed.

So restrained, OTW. Well played.

I couldn't agree more.

I would be VERY surprised if this does not affect DZs numbers going forward.

I agree. If they think it's bad that they didn't get TCU.... they've got a lot coming to them for future colonization efforts.

What school wants a sorority that will sue because choices THE SORORITY MADE?

I'm no school administrator, but I wouldn't!;)

I'm trying. I really am.

I totally agree that this isn't good for Delta Zeta. Which is why I venture to guess that they (Delta Zeta HQ) may put expansion on "hold" for a while.

You may be right. Let me ask this. Do you (and or anyone else) feel that a PNM would rather be independent than become a member? Is the rep going to be "that bad"? I still feel that the local reputation will supercede the national in most if not all cases.

See below.

I agree that numbers may decrease if the case goes to trial and/or gets dragged out. But again, will it be "so bad" that a PNM would rather be an independent than join? Especially as so many of y'all have pointed out that this is no fault of the individual chapters. I would guess that every Delta Zeta chapter will (should) be prepared to address this very issue during rush.

I'm sure this may be true on a national level but what about on the local (chapter) level? I'm not sure how most NPCs work, but with many NIC/IFCs, most alumni donations go directly to a local chapter or to a local housing corporation etc. And sure, the lawsuit will dip into their reserves. But I'm sure the law firm presented an fee agreement which Delta Zeta's in-house counsel reviewed and approved. Which actually makes me wonder if there isn't some sort of connection between Delta Zeta and Mr. O'Neill or his law firm. Or perhaps Mr. O'Neill is working pro bono.

I agree 100%. However, my concern is that regardless if we like it or not, if this case moves forward, loosing it may (note *may*) set some sort of bad precedent for GLOs down the line. As such, and as much as I'm sure many people don't want to do so, it might behoove GLOs to get "behind" Delta Zeta in this. Not advocating anyone do so, but at least take a wait and see view with respect to the merits of the case.

Is it good to file a lawsuit if losing it will create problems for GLOs down the line?

I don't claim to know everything about this situation or reorganizations, and I'm not speaking for my group at all, but I think this situation at DePauw indicated that GLOs might need some restrictions about how they do re-organizations and closings. While I don't want to open the door to a whole lot of meddling by colleges in GLO business, if no one else will lay down the rules, maybe the colleges need to to protect the interests of students who when they join one NPC organization for life expect to be active members the whole time they are in college (as long as they don't break the rules). Is that an unreasonable expectation for the students and the colleges to hold?

That's the spin. But that's not what DePauw did at all. DePauw stated that it did not agree with the manner in which the reorganization ws carried out (evicting women in the middle of the school year with little notice) and then chose to sever ties because of DZ reactions and actions after the fact. They never tried to choose who should be a member. Don't drink the Koolaid.

Ahhh, but which flavor Koolaid?

The pitcher served up by the media?

While I'm not as confident as SquirrelGirl that I know the whole truthful story, I'm not sure this is the re-organization I want to be the test case. I'm afraid it's going to do more harm than good.

I am a little confused.

What, besides the "hey, we're severing our ties with Delta Zeta" letter did DePauw do to "defame" and create an "intentional campaign"????

Also - what "contractual obligation" does a university have to any GLO?

Is this because they won't be able to celebrate their blessed 100th?

All of this came to light because the ousted girls spoke up about it. Is DZ gonna sue them too?

I'm really interested what kind of crap they are feeding the 5 girls who decided to stay. They probably created a media toolkit since this will be in the spotlight again. :rolleyes:

And according to the USA Today article that DZ linked to, membership had been declining for the last DECADE. Why on EARTH do they want to be somewhere that no one wants to join???????? (besides the whole 100th celebration of course!)

WILL THEY PLEASE GIVE UP THE LESS COMMITTED CRAP!

Thanks & have a great day :)

No.

Frankly, I doubt this lawsuit was filed irrationally. And I doubt that any attorney worth a grain of salt is going to take a case of this type unless they feel they can win it or settle it out of court. Which leads me to believe there may be some merit behind this case.

I understand and applaud your concept. However, I doubt any GLO wants any university to meddle in (or dictate) their fraternity/sorority business or policy.

If Depauw wanted, could they not require that Delta Zeta put into evidence materials related to their membership selection process or Initiation requirements as part of their case? We at work are often asked to provide materials for opposing counsel in times of litigation. It's part of the discovery process I believe. I'm sure there are lots of little things in secret parts here and their that when scrutinized by the right people can make anyone look bad. I agree this is a trainwreck.

That's a very, very good point, and one that is very valid.

I agree about universities meddling in Greek business, it shouldn't happen.

However, in looking at the DePauw situation (especially after reading the statements from the University), the girls are DePauw students first. They went to DePauw for an education. If the university feels that the actions of the HQ were detrimental to the students' well-being, they have every right to say, "Hey...get the hell off the campus."

And now DZ's suing the school saying that the school was responsible for all the bad publicity? Uh, take a look in the mirror, HQ.

I know I may be out of line by saying this, but I hope DZ considers getting new authority soon.

When they are put into evidence, could they then become public record?

Join the club.

It was what and how it was said in that letter that has many GLOs concerned. Simply put that a GLO can be kicked off campus for conducting "their" (the GLO's) internal business when it may not have been in violation of any university policy.

I don't rightly know. But I'm sure there is something legal between the university and GLOs. My guess is that it might be something as simple as allowing the chapter to govern itself as long as the chapter does not break any university, city, state or federal laws etc.

No. It might have been a long time ago, but it isn't now. I'm sure the ladies of Delta Zeta know they most likely won't have a celebration. Even in victory. This is more about Delta Zeta having the right to govern and make their own policy regarding membership. And clearing their name.

(Please note that I am not advocating for Delta Zeta or necessarily supporting any of their positions. Simply presenting what appears to be their case.)

Not yet.

I hope Delta Zeta HQ is smart enough to provide Delta Chapter with guidance and support on how to respond to the media.

At this point, it doesn't seem to be about wanting a a chapter at DePauw but about what the university said about Delta Zeta in their statements and about how Delta Zeta conducts their internal business.

I would guess (and hope) that Delta Zeta would claim ritual (membership selection) to be privileged information. And anything related to ritual as well.

If that was to happen, my guess is that the records would most likely be sealed.

Can you imagine the thought process that went into deciding to sue DePauw?

"Okay sisters, we look terrible nationally and publicly right now. How do we fix this?"
"Well we could just let this slide but I mean, Delta is our second oldest chapter. How could DePauw just kick us off? God they're so mean!"
"I know! They made us look so bad! They're such meanies!"
"I have an idea. It's brilliant and crazy and it will work! We'll sue them for making us look bad! That will clear our name and make the public hate DePauw instead!"
"That's inspired! Let's do it!"

I wonder if that would fly considering that Delta Zeta is claiming they have no such discrimination policies actual or implied. As Depauw's attorney I would think such information on membership selection would be pertinent to the case. I'd ask for everything they have under the moon, back a big old Rider truck up to their HQ and say load it up. But then I'm not an attorney so I get to make it up as I go!

I agree. But from what I understand of this case, Delta Zeta is saying they followed - or were within - university guidelines etc.

And again, my feeling is that if Delta Zeta is willing to go public like this, there might be merit to their case.

Since I am NPHC this whole concept of such high minimum numbers for a chapter is foreign to me. I bet there is another thread on this and if so could someone direct me to it.

This whole scenario could not happen in a NPHC org. I mean folx may be suspended or even expelled for hazing and other violations, but not because the chapter is struggling for members.

And it is interesting to me that the local pan-hel decides on who is invited to expand, because at my school (yeah way back then) DST was denied admittance by the University because there were no houses available, so there would be no addition sororities or fraternities.

Once our then national president (who had come to speak on campus as the first African American commissioner of civil rights) explained that we do not require houses, then the University changed its mind, and the rest of the NPHC was admitted on campus (only Kappa, Alpha and AKA had existed formally in houses, and all three ended up giving them up, because they didn't want to be restricted to the houses.)

We had existed there as part of another nearby chapter, but then we were able to get our own charter.

I thought Delta Zeta already made public certain membership policies with respect to discrimination. Most GLOs have their policies "out there" and available to the public. The whole "We do not discriminate based on..."

Just because they have that statement on their website does not neccessarily mean it is adhered to everywhere (and that's for everyone, not just DZ chapters).

Since membership selection is private and so is the "business" that each GLO conducts, who's to say Suzie Q didn't get into XYZ because of her race, weight, dress size, or how popular she is with the guys? She might be involved in lots of things on campus and someone can say she'd be too busy to be commited to the chapter and that could be it and use that as an excuse to not put her on bid lists or to put her on the "Congratulations! You're a great sister and you can live the rest of your collegiate life as an alumna with all the rights and privilages of an active sister.... except you can't wear letters or come by the house" list

I am not an expert but one of the things I got out of my higher education law class was that if you don't protect your rights, they can be taken away. Yeah, its true--DZ may suffer in numbers or reputation by pursuing this suit. And as an administrator, I would be hesitant about bringing a group to campus that was known for suing another school.

But I wonder--wouldn't it be worse if we, GLOs, lost the right to decide who our members are? Wouldn't it be worse if we didn't have a right to be autonomous and run our organizations by our own values? (This is also why many orgs are resistant to university efforts for values congruence relationship statements etc.)

We need to protect our rights.

Agree 100%.

Well said!

Actually I had one mother who works with me come and see me a few months ago because her daughter had just accepted a bid at another school in Indiana and she was worried that maybe she should counsel her daughter to de-pledge because of this. She knew I was in a sorority and wanted my opinion. While I said I thought it was no big deal in the long run and I was sure her daughter would be fine, I found it sad that the mother's first national exposure to her daughter's sorority was this. That is where I can see this effecting DZ's numbers... if parents caution against DZ due to the media.

There are plenty of attorneys who would take a case of this type whether it has a chance in hell of succeeding in any way or not -- publicity, exposure, and $$$.

I really thought the powers that be at DZ couldn't look like bigger assholes than they did when this whole thing blew up. I clearly was wrong. Where are the normal, cool DZ members now and what are they doing about this? I would be LIVID.

I have absolutely no law training, but here is what I fear. Even if DZ's membership selection processes are brought into evidence, and even if they are kept out of the public record, there will still be people who see them. Lawyers, legal assistants, jury members, etc. Given the public nature of this thing, should it actually see a trial, there will be jury members who will want to talk. Their quotes will be along the lines of "I can't believe they judge potential members and actually tell girls they can't belong."

Thus perpetuating the myth that sororities are all snotty elitists.

I had thought this whole mess was dying down. Even the thread on GC has been a little cool as far as posts go. Perhaps it would have been more prudent to cut their losses and let it all go away naturally. Come fall recruitment it would have been old news. The media would have found something new to talk about. While some people may have thought twice before joining DZ, if the issue is no longer in the forefront, it probably wouldn't have had that devastating an effect.

This action just ensures that the story continues to be told. All sides of the story will be told, and whose side is more compelling as far as the media goes? The women who feel discriminated against or the national organization who files a lawsuit?

I personally do not agree they should have any legs to stand on because they have never handled this situation in a manner that leads me (and many people) to believe they are completely innocent in all the things that happened.

If they are going to take on the "OMG WE'RE A PRIVATE ORGANIZATION AND WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DISMISS WHOEVER WE WANT TO BECAUSE WE'RE A PRIVATE ORGANIZATION AND WE ARE ON THIS CRUSADE FOR ALL OF GREEKDOM" then hey, more power to them, but not everyone is going to buy it.

This lawsuit business makes me want to bang my head against the wall. I may be overreacting, but I'm estimating it's going to be close to a decade for DZ to recover from this.

I totally agree that it could affect PNMs, especially ones without Greek networks they can turn to for guidance. My mother and I were both Greek, so we know enough to help my sister see that every chapter is different and she should be looking for the best fit at HER school. But I have definitely already had two senior students ask me questions about whether they should rush at all because of articles their parents read in the papers about this whole situation (neither mentioned DZ; they were concerned that this was general practice for all sororities). I wonder if we will see a decline in rushers overall because girls will get a bad taste of NPC orgs from the DePauw incident and from all of the media coverage... I hope not.

I'm sure it will happen. But I feel any "fall out" isn't going to be restricted to just Delta Zeta but perhaps sororities (and fraternities) in general.

In any case, you did the right thing and pointed out that this was an isolated incident and that her daughter would be fine. (We hope.) As such, the daughter didn't de-pledge. This is what I anticipate to be the likely scenario for a while. Initial concern, followed by reassurance at the chapter (local) level.