http://www.abfnet.com/forum/images/smilies/41.gif

;)

McDonald's is not a minimum wage job. Minimum wage jobs make up around 2% of all jobs -- most of those jobs belonging to teenagers. I do know of a few teenagers who have been kicked out of their parents' homes at early ages and have been able to survive while going to high school. My wife teaches at an inner-city college prep charter school, so I do get to hear quite a few success stories along those lines.

Well actually, I'm racking up those loans while working a job to pay for living expenses. Privilege in this society is something that is earned, not given. Sure, some of us start out ahead, but that's not always enough. I'm sure we all know of kids of millionaires who end up getting written out of any inheritance and kicked to the curb because they're irresponsible... or at least I know some.

I never intimated that I had humble beginnings. The six bedroom house is about 1 year old, in a gated community on a lake. It's admittedly a pretty damn nice place. That said, while I have a great safety net both of my own and my parents' creation, I actually paid for my own undergrad schooling with a scholarship and am currently paying for law school with student loans. I haven't had to touch that trust fund yet :)

The point is that I haven't pissed away my opportunities as so many do. That's just the way our society functions. I don't owe anything more than the exorbitant taxes I pay (and will pay) to health and human services. Considering the vast sum of money going to that part of the federal budget, you should stop every wealthy person you see on the street and thank them for paying your salary (you said you're a social worker, right?). Without that top 5% or so being punished for being successful, our welfare system wouldn't be half as well funded as it is today.

Terrific.

While I may not agree with everything that Kevin has said I can empathize with him. I have had some negative experiences with very agressive panhandlers myself so I can see how he can have the feelings that he has.

see look! its me, empathizing!

ok, for real though, i'm done. i said what i needed to say many times over, and so did Kevin. we'll agree to disagree and all that jazz.

You know how they have "No Soliciting" signs for your house? They should have "I'm an asshole" stickers that you can wear in public, so people don't try to talk to you. I would totally put one on my boobs the next time I go out to a bar!

I'm too tired to read every post on here, so I didn't, just so everyone knows.

Anyway, I feel like i should be all righteous and say, "You bastard, care for all of your fellow man" but I can't. I live downtown and get hit up for change everyday, mostly by people who, in my eyes, don't deserve it.

EXAMPLES OF WHY CG DOESN'T TRUST HOMELESS PEOPLE:
I got hit up by a guy and I offered him the gallon of milk that was in my fridge, but he told me he couldn't drink milk after all the beer he'd just had.

A man outside the chinese restaurant I came out of asked for money to buy food. I said I don't have any, but "I just bought these egg rolls would you like one?" He turned up his nose to it and said "I don't like egg rolls. You ain't got no card?" (as in a credit card)

A man begged me to buy him some tacos from taco bell. The woman at the register told him it was illegal to ask me that and offered him like 7 tacos that they would have to throw away otherwise. He said, "No, I don't like that kind."

A man begged for money so he could buy food for his daughter (who was no where to be seen). I told him I had no cash, but just bought groceries and offered him some, and he said "Oh no, I couldn't take your food from you" and went on to the next person.

A man asked me for a quarter and I gave him a dollar. Ten minutes later, I walked back by him, and he asked me for a quarter.

The same man, got used to me giving him change when I saw him, so one day didn't even ask. He yelled, "HEY!" and when I turned around, he moved his index finger in the "come here" sign, then held out his hand to me.

A guy knocked on my window at the drive through and asked for food. i smart mouthed him and rolled the window up and went to a different place. I felt bad for taking my bad day out on him, so I bought an extra meal, drove back to where he was and gave it to him, apologizing for my rudeness. He took the food and pushed the drink back at me and said, 'I don't like this kind, you can have it back."

One man and his wife asked for money and when I said I had no cash, he actually got excited and said "Oh good, you can buy us some food with your credit card!" and FOLLOWED me to the grocery store. Because I'm nice (to the point of insanity) I bought them a rotisserie chicken anyway, but you see the point of the story. The list goes on and on and on.

I care about others, I do. I donate my clothes to a homeless shelter I used to volunteer at and now I volunteer at the humane society (puppies smell better). But I'm in college. My course load is too heavy to have a regular job, so I make cash babysitting and signing up for random medical studies. 1 out of every 3 times I go to a fast food place, I bought food for somebody begging next to my car. Many times I've had the response, "I don't like this or I don't drink coke." If someone who's two seconds from broke bought you food, BE FREAKING GRATEFUL. I know there are people who genuinely need help, but until there's a way to distinguish them from the rest of the riff raff, get away from my quarters. It's laundry day.

Are you talking about Labor Ready? I don't know where you live, but there's no way people here in Seattle can afford rent, utilities, bills, etc. anywhere close to the city making the minimum wage that places like Labor Ready pay. YOU try working for $6.20/hour (or whatever it is now) and see if you can make it all on your own, without any family or friends for support. OH, and if you go to a place like McDonald's for a job, don't forget that the gov't gets its share, too!

Also, you seem to be uninformed about some of the services available to the homeless. Again, I don't know how it works in your city, but in many cities the homeless shelters only open in the evening for food and shelter...it's not like food is available to the homeless all day...and space is extremely limited. Usually most shelters in urban areas have to turn away many people, and shelters are also notoriously unsafe. Where do you expect people to shower for their job interviews once they're homeless? Or do their laundry?

Most people who are homeless got that way because of some life-changing event/trauma, and they have no one to turn to to help them out while they rebound. Once you're out on the street, it's really hard to get yourself off of it even if you want to.

I laughed so hard at that I fully believe I just woke up my roommate.

I disagree. We can beg to choose or we can choose to beg. In fact, those are the two groups that homeless people fall into. Those who beg to choose. Those who choose to beg.

The cost of living/rent in Seattle versus Oklahoma City is vast. Rent is especially cheap here. I actually have worked at jobs which pay close to that amount of money (while in college) and coworkers who were not college students and had no other means of support were doing just fine. They weren't living luxurious lifestyles, or even middle class, but they were definitely making ends meet.

Not sure about the safety, but as to the food, we do fine. I've actually done volunteer work for the homeless, the food pantry is very well stocked, and as far as availabel services go, we're nowhere near capacity.

Like I said, there are programs which help poor and homeless find jobs, even provide job training. Those programs are not being utilized. Apparently, the "poor" prefer to scam the system.

You assume I'm so ignorant of the facts regarding this, what is your personal experience?

And the job you're working, last I remember, is for your daddy's law firm.

Well, that's in Oklahoma. Oklahoma, despite what you may believe, is not a representative sample for the rest of the country.

I'm not going to input my opinions in this thread, because I'll either be demonized as a dirty liberal or heartless conservative, but damn. There's so much hypocrisy in this thread.

Your point? Regardless of where I work and what I do, the homeless still annoy me. I know they're lazy compared to me, I know they are an unfair burden on society, and I resent aggressive panhandling tactics. What that has to do with what I do for a living (so long as I do something for a living) seems pretty irrelevant.

This thread just reminded me that I haven't seen a particular Spare Change Newspaper guy in awhile. I hope he's ok.

even though this is a serious topic, i'm glad i could bring laughter to someone's day. :)

I think we all can. I imagine all of us have run across the scammer-bumm who really doesn't want to work, and that can color our perspectives.

For me, this is perhaps the area of life where my instinctual reactions and my religious/spiritual values have the hardest time sorting each other out. I would rather not be faced with the begger -- although I don't think I've actually gone out of my way to avoid one. Sometimes I've given money, sometimes I haven't. Sometimes I have given or bought food to a homeless person, more often I probably haven't. Often, I refer or take them to a church or an agency equipped to help. I can rationalize my refusal to give money by telling myself that they'll only spend the money on drugs and alcohol 'til the cows come home, but then the religious side butts in: "Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or naked . . . ?"

I suppose you believe us "poor" folks sit at home watching TV collecting welfare checks too right? Because all of the volunteer work you do gives you such great exposure and all.


ok... first the 6 bedroom house, now this? don't EVER come at me with some "me? priveledged? no way..." bullshit in your life. ever. you've given me everything i needed to stereotype you and everyone like you. and no i dont feel any way about it because you're doing it too.

well, you went to law school - you're not stupid. you tell me.


you wish. i suppose if you were working at the local Wal-mart stocking shelves for $6/hr (or something equally lower-income), knowing full well the city, state and gov't is taking half that... maybe you'd still feel the same in that the homeless annoy you. but i guarantee that your empathy would TOTALLY shift because your status would be eons closer to their reality than yours is right now.. it is SO obvious that your feelings are attached to your status.

Ah, Spare Change guy. He used to be right out in front of my office every morning (I worked across from the State House). There were some days when he looked worse than others, so hopefully he's doing ok now.

That, and hopefully the Fox station stopped making fun of him - did you ever see the segments they used to do?

As far as this thread goes and the topic, I have way too many feelings about it for a message board, so I'll just save the space.

Amen

While I feel sympathy towards the homeless, I still am irritated with them. I live on the street with all the bars/restaurants in Morgantown, and there are 2 or 3 homeless people who are consistently around. One of them keeps to himself, never asks for money, and he doesn't bother me at all. The other one sits outside all day asking "Have any change?" with a damn box of oranges, a sombrero on his head, and shaking maracas. I never give him money because I constantly see peope giving him A LOT of money, plus I really don't appreciate being asked for money when I'm walking to class. I'm much more likely to buy a homeless person a sandwich or give them my leftovers from a restaurant than give them a 5 dollar bill - especially when I've done this in the past to some bum who gave me a lame story about needing a bus ticket to Pittsburgh, then harassed my friend with the same story a week later. I feel bad for people who are trying to get on their feet, and I realize it must be horrible for them to see priveleged college students blowing money at the bar, but I'm not about to hand out my parents' hard earned money to them.

Yes, and just what is your problem?

I knew this person and what his situation was not some little trivial thing you want to make it out to be!:eek:

Sweet as usual!:o

I'm going to tell you that I have an issue with you enabling someone. It would have been far better if you'd gotten him help. Particularly if he was self medicating a physical or psychological ailment.

Welfare fraud is out there. Do you disagree?

Okay, so let's say I'm 'privileged,' why is that even relevant? Do I need to experience something in order to comprehend it? I don't think your argument carries a whole lot of water. I never have implied anything other than the fact that I work hard for what I have and would do so regardless of what I don't have to work for. How that has anything to do with the homeless is beyond me.

You didn't even make the comment. I'm sure kddani can answer the question herself.

Half? Now you're really stretching.

My feelings are attached to my status? I've explained to you several times that at least with the services offerred in this immediate area, anyone with a working mind and body can get off the streets if they'll invest a little in themselves. Knowing that has nothing to do with my status or privilege level -- it's just a fact. That someone fails to avail themselves of services they have to walk by every day in order to get to the prime panhandling locations communicates their intention not to want to work for a living.

Your "pride" arguments, etc. are completely bunk for reasons explained before. Being homeless is a choice. Sure, people do end up on the streets through no fault of their own -- but to remain there is a choice.

You have no clue about the situation and about the person so why do you want to put some input in about a person who you have no knowledge about?

There are people in need who need help and others who do not want help!:mad:

So, who are your to judge what they want to do?

I was in need and luckly got help when I got divorced and she took everything.

I worked my ass off all of my life, maybe you did or not,but until you have been there, climb off.

If you do not know then do not judge about what others think!

Kevin is saying, they ahve the opportunity to get help and do not and I would not give them money either!

If you wish to, then knock yourself out and quite bitching about us who get tired of it!

When you donate your self into the poor house, do not come and ask for alms oh poor person!:(

The one I always saw was near the Hynes T stop. Luckily I've never seen the Fox station making fun of any of them. That's really uncalled for.

Uh huh, You won't give them money but you'll give them wine in exchange for the food they've been given? I really really doubt you can justify that. The rest of your post has zero bearing on that point.

Any Rainbow girls out there getting flashbacks like I am ??!! :D :D

I don't think he was being unreasonable. If a person wants to get blitzed and forget about his worries, and he values that more than food, what's the big deal? Enabling an addict on the streets is not really a bad thing. If that's what the addict wants to do, who are you to judge?

At least this particular customer of Tom's wasn't being aggressive or asking for handouts. He was bartering for his wine. Sounds good to me.

Holy crap, I agree with Kevin.

There was (maybe still is?) a homeless guy in Chicago whose tagline was "Help a drunk get drunker!" At least he was honest (I think -- there's no way of knowing what he did with the money) and he also was cool as hell.

In my very small town we have no real "homeless", we have a place that any one who would need it can stay and the handful of "homeless" we have are taken care of because well, they're the regulars. (We even had one named Buttermilk Bill, kinda miss him).

Since I'm not used to them one time in Daytona Beach we were driving past one and I wanted to give him something but the rest of the crew did not want to. So, I threw a granola bar out the window at him.

I tried.

Here's my 2 cents. I don't care why the person is homeless. If there's an immediate need, and I have the means to provide, I will. If I have food in the car, they get some food. If I have a few dollars on me, they get a few dollars. If they buy food, they don't go to sleep hungry. If they buy booze, they might be so groggy by the time they go to sleep they forget they're miserable.

Yes! That is exactly what I was thinking.

WOW. That is completely and totally wrong. That's an awful thing to say about feeding someone's addiction, it totally adds to the decline of society itself.




And yet, it doesn't make me the least bit mad. I completely and totally understand it, in fact, I even sort of agree with this statement. What's happening to me???? I've changed....

Well, look at it this way -- you give them money, you're merely providing them with a vehicle to continue to survive in the 'homeless lifestyle.' You're removing any sort of motivation for them to get off their asses and change their fortune. That is equally -- if not more harmful than the situation Tom described.

In Tom's situation, the guy wasn't even looking for a handout. He was trading one type of good for another. He valued alcohol more than food. It's not a healthy choice, but someone who is on the street has already made an unhealthy choice to be and to remain on the street. I don't understand how that feeds the "decline of society."

The ultimate point here is that you just cannot get riled up when a homeless person approaches you- even if they get aggressive. If you are in imminent danger or are attacked, that is one thing- but otherwise you just gotta not worry about it.

At some times in life we all get short/nasty/agitated with people we can afford to treat like that. It is an ugly fact, but crap rolls downhill- whether it should or not.

I personally think that many people get so upset about homeless people invading their sense of social status because they cannot control the situation.

If a waiter or salesperson gets out of line, you can complain and remediate the situation- getting some kind of sense of personal justice in the process that validates your position in society.

But if a homeless person does that, who are you going to complain to? What hold or control do you have over that person? None!

Yet this also raises the question, why get so riled up about it in the first place?

Insecurity? Ego? A sense of entitlement to more insulation from the real world?

All of these things apply- and we are all guilty.

When I was in college at Georgia, a homeless man once asked me for money on the street one night and I ignored him. He asked me, "Can you spare some change?"

I stiffened up and walked on- agitated at being asked.

Another homeless guy sitting next to him said, as I walked by all puffed up, "Shit, he can't even spare a walk!" And he said it so perfectly- just picture Redd Foxx saying it back in his glory days as a standup comedian.

I have never forgotten that because it was a reminder that at some level we are all the same and we are all destined to live in a world in which we have no ability to fully ensure that life's events only approach us on the terms we want.

So I don't sweat it anymore. If anything, it is nice to be reminded that no matter where I get in the world- at a certain point I am no better than anyone else.

Maybe a bit overly philosophical, but that is how I see it. And I am grateful for the fact I am person in a position to make the choice to see it like that.

I half disagree on behalf of the schmedium population that did not choose to be/stay homeless.

I was being sarcastically dramatic to play up the second half of the msg. :D

Explain how it's not a choice for someone with an able body/mind.

Or perhaps we consider it rude and immoral to beg? Perhaps it offends our moral decency that someone who we know could very well choose to take advantage of the vast resources available to them and have a better life (and does not) is invading our space requesting that we subsidize their life choice?

Perhaps we find it offensive that (as is the case with the man in the wheelchair who obviously didn't need it) these people have the mental wherewithall to stoop to deception in order to take advantage of peoples' charity so that they may make whatever living they do? I left out the fact that this occured downtown on St. Patrick's day -- you typically have a large population of people downtown for the parade who normally aren't downtown and normally do not see the same beggars on a daily basis (easy marks).

I'm not even sure these folks are homeless to be honest. They could very well be doing what they're doing as a way to earn easy money on the weekends. As inexpensive as the cost of living here is, to be actually homeless takes some serious effort.

And herein, I think, lies the problem that many of us have about this whole situation. How do we know a particular homeless person is of able mind or body or could very well choose to take advantage of the vast resources available to them and have a better life? We can assume it, but how do we know? I'll readily grant that your example at the start of this thread gave every indication of not needing the wheel chair he was using. (Although is it possible that he had become adept at using a wheel chair but for reasons not apparent he really couldn't stand or walk? I don't know.) But mental illnesses in particular may not be at all obvious, and not all phsyical limitations are obvious either.

The reality is that usually we don't really know. We can assume and guess, but we don't know for sure unless we actually take some time with the person, and even then can we know for sure? Occasionally it may be pretty obvious that someone is trying to pull one over on us, but in my experience, that is the exception rather than the rule.

So we're left to make some snap judgments -- do we show some compassion and risk enabling someone's addiction -- maybe even making things worse for them -- or rewarding a scammer? Do we refuse to enable the addict or reward the scammer and risk failing to show compassion to someone who truly needs it?

Things get even trickier when you have kids. How do I demonstrate to my kids the need to be careful and also the need to practice the values we are trying to teach them?

For me, at least, there are no easy answers.

I just don't think that's the case around here. What may be true in whatever big city you live in, OKC's homeless problem is still of a manageable size. The city does a decent job of managing the problem. The fact that an individual is standing in front of me and talking to me is testimony to the fact that they know help exists (they haven't died of starvation and they're within close proximity of the homeless shelter and related services, so it's a safe bet). If they're not of able body/mind, there are government programs which will provide them with food, money and shelter. Sure, the Rehnquist court said we can't pluck them off the streets and throw them into an institution, but these people still have the ability to self-commit or apply for treatment programs which are not at capacity. If they have the ability to walk around and beg, they have the ability to ask for help from someone who is actually set up to provide real help.

Neither act is really compassionate. Giving money to the homeless is something which ultimately harms them (as I discussed above). Also, as you pointed out, the "homeless" I discussed above probably aren't actually even homeless.

That's a pretty easy one. It seems the benefit of teaching a valuable lesson would outweigh the harm it does to the "homeless" person. I personally don't care about that other person. I think younger kids would benefit from the lesson, but I think older kids would benefit more from a lesson about how things (and people) aren't always what they appear to be.