Oh for shit's sake.........are you kidding me? As far as owners are concerned........I don't know of too many people in this country, white or black, that can afford to just buy an NFL franchise.....I believe they are the most expensive in sports.....maybe baseball, not sure though......of maybe we should just give people teams as Christmas presents.

Considering the amount of people in this country that are worth half a billion dollars and could actually own an NFL team......I think that load of crap you posted is rather ridiculous.

Great. Now Monet can be happy about two black coaches competing in the Super Bowl for the first time without being challenged over her feelings.

Which is what the thread started as.

Yeah man, we just don't understand. I generally think rooting for one race over another is wrong, but you told us. Guess we're just not at your enlightened level of "consciousness." Hell, you should talk to Bobby Petrino, if he had known about the incredible injustices in the NFL, he probably wouldn't have taken the Falcons job. Wait, for my reference, what were those injustices again?

Guess you missed the several instances where Macallan and I mentioned that we too were happy for those coaches.

I didn't challenge here feelings at all......shut up. Perhaps you should go back and read where both Shiner and I stated that we were very happy for both coaches.

;)

You two are "cute." :)

what can I say, white kids on this board have to stick together.

Canada did it first in 2005. ;)

You mean we don't? Darn, and that's the reason I joined an NPC sorority in the first place.... ;)

I'll be sure to start a thread next time there is a game in which two white running backs start against each other.

Aw, guys. It's one thing if you want to make the claim that the time has arrived that we should consider only the individual's circumstances because the wrongs of past group discrimination have been addressesed or that it's better for individuals in the long run to focus on individual merit. I don't know if I'd agree, but both claims seem like they could be made in good faith.

It's something else if you want to claim that the absence of black head coaches was purely coincidental and that individual simply "weren't qualified" for a job that in some ways there are no set qualifications for. Do you also imagine that the reason that southern schools didn't integrate until the early '60 was because there were no qualified applicants? You seem to be ignoring history completely.

I kind of doubt that every owner or general manager actually thought, "well this guy is better qualified, but we can't hire him because he's black" but other people may believe that it was that direct. I think that for whatever goofy racial reason, they couldn't see the black guy as fully qualified.

Now, I'm done too here because this thread doesn't need any more of this either.

Superbowl coaches! Woo Hoo!

:D I know the author of this article and his wife! :D

We're not ignoring history, but there comes a point, at least in my mind, where things have evened out. I don't think coaches have been hired based on skin color in quite a while, and I think the only reason its taken this long is that past lack of opportunity meant a smaller pool of black coaches. However, I think for the most part things have caught up. I do think the ownership complaint is ridiculous.

WHy do you say "for the most part" then?



Well, seeing as how there is not history in this situation that would justify your cheering other than the same justification whites have given for supporting whites just because they are white forever in America, then yeah you should be looked at funny.

-And I can't believe you and your bosom buddy are acting like things are so color blind now. You KNOW the race of the man is considered when thinking about hiring them, whether they are making one statement or another. YOU all are the ones who are being unrealistic when you say or even think (and I'm sure you're forcing yourself to think this way) that those people who look at a group of individuals and have to consider who to hire don't look at the fact the one is black and one is white. Whether they utilize those thoughts to decide to hire or refrain from hiring is what no one knows, but the thoughts are most certainly there, I'm sure, and I would not doubt too seriously that they aren't jumping at the chance to pick the black man over the white one. If they do, then I think there was some internal (meaning within themselves) or external pressure to do so, which is sad.

Well I for one am proud of the fact that there are two black coaches going to the Superbowl. ;)

:D I know them too! :D

some background and data amidst the conjecture...
 

http://www.findjustice.com/nfl/indextext.html
"Black Coaches in the National Football League"

This report led to the creation of the NFL's current policy of inclusion of minority candidates in the interviewing processes of NFL clubs.

For the record, Frederick Douglass "Fritz" Pollard was named a head coach in 1921 in the APFA, which became the NFL a year later. Art Shell was the first African American head coach in the NFL's modern era (1989).

Both men are brothers of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc.

Infiltration? ;):eek: Spies?

It's an interesting read. Where do you know them from? (I'm nosey)

Canada's so progressive. Universal healthcare and coaches. :)

Thanks for the clarification, which will lead shortsighted people to say "see, I told you people that there's no exclusion of black coaches."

Is it possible that the Frederick Douglass that the Alphas list as an honorary is really "Fritz" Pollard? :) Just kidding.

Haha, let's not compare Canadian football to the NFL.

And Delt, you are correct, Art Shell was the first, with the Raiders.

An aside:

It's a well-known (and cited) fact that, although the overwhelming majority of players in the NFL are black, fewer coaches are black.

However, the 'breakdown' of coaches, compared to the overall racial breakdown of the nation, is closer/more similar.

Which should be the benchmark? Is there a middle ground? Does the coaching 'pool' more closely mirror the pool of players, or society at large?

I think it has caught up, but I leave my options open considering I don't know everything, and neither do you. I'm not gonna make some broad statement like "Nobody thinks about race anymore" even though I think that statement is likely true. How many good white receivers are there? Modern history shows white receivers don't do very well. Whats the difference in rooting for a white player because he's white, and rooting for a black person because they're black? I'm not talking about being happy for the two coaches, its been made rather clear that nobody has an issue with that. I do however think its ridiculous to root for someone because they're white/black. Thats where the double standard is. The fact is that its appropriate for black people to be proud of their race, but its not for white people. Putting history aside for a second, if I said "I'm proud, as a white person, to have Manning in the Super Bowl" people would think I'm a white supremacist. Now, to a degree I think this pride black people show in such things is appropriate, similar to how Irish and Italians were proud when one of their own made it to a significant post, etc...but siding with one race just because it is your own is something I think we need to get past in this country. Example? Duke rape case.

And Phasad, I don't think race is that big a deal in hiring. I think how you act is the key. Of course Goldman Sachs is going to be reluctant to hire somebody who although intelligent, dresses like a thug. Its not about race, its about how you present yourself. As a law student, firms absolutely eat up the black students who present themselves well.

Good question.

I think the better benchmark is the historical composition of the NFL. The highly specialized, specific skill-set nature of the NFL naturally limits the talent pool. I concur that historically (I don't have the specific stat either) that the majority of NFL players have been non-white. Given that, the 70+ year absence of AfAm head coaches, or even the chances to regularly interview for head coaching spots until recently, makes the "drought" all the more pronounced.

So black coaches should comprise 70 percent of the NFL ranks? I might have misread that, but I think thats a pretty ridiculous standard. As we all know, being a good player does not generally translate to being a great coach. A lot of the best coaches are backups who had plenty of time to sit around and analyze the game. Also, its obvious that a lot of players don't possess leadership qualities required of a good coach. This isn't really about race, just in general that simply because people can play doesn't mean they'll be good coaches.

No one's advocating a quota system but rather doing away with the existing barriers in hiring and promotion. That doesn't mean there'll be an influx of black coaches. It means there's greater and more equal POTENTIAL.

What's the benchmark for other sports? What does the NBA do? What do baseball and hockey do? The NBA has way more black players than baseball and hockey so does its coaching and managerial positions mirror that? How many black coaches are there in majority white sports like hockey--is that based on it being a majority white sport or the fact that there are more whites (with greater access to opportunities) in society at large?

It isn't your place or right to tell anyone on this board to "shut up."

Period.

DeltAlum, you might mention that to DSTS too, if you feel that way.

Just because the Rooney Rule wasn't put into place until a few years ago doesn't mean that black coaches weren't given the oppurtunity to interview for head coaching jobs.

Also, just because a black football player was a superstar doesn't mean he would be a good coach....at all.

shut up


It's my real life AND message board staple. :)

Oh ok........but its alright for DSTCHAOS to.

You made a completely idiotic, borderline dumbass statement about the lack of owners that are black in the NFL. You needed to shut up.

You've misread my post. I've never indicated that AfAms should comprise 70 percent of the coaching ranks, so I have no idea where you pulled that.

Nor did I ever suggest a 1-to-1 correlation between talent and ability to coach. What I actually did say was that with the 70+ years of talent imbalance (concurring with Ksig's? point) in the NFL, I find it highly improbable that AfAm numbers in the coaching ranks during the same period, and since, grew so anemically.

Just curious, what is your take on the numbers presented in the professor's analysis (found in the link in my earlier post)?

Yeah you're right. I scan things a lot on here. I'll get back to you on the link.

I read through the link. I'm not sure what you wanted me to comment on. I think the statistics mean very little, I'm not sure what point he's trying to make. Most of those coaches coach for decent teams, and the sample is far too small to make any generalizations. If the point is to say black coaches aren't bad, then sure, thats reasonable. I don't think it says much else though.

Putting history aside for a second? You really can't do that because that is the premise for this entire discussion, Shiner. If history was capable of being "put aside" then, of course, it would be no difference between the sense of a need for pride in the black race as black people and that of whites in their race. That, however, isn't the case so hypothetically putting history aside doesn't do anything for the discussion which is not rooted in hypos but in reality.

Well, this IS the basis for how we feel so if you can understand the sentiment for Irish people and Italians, then you should understand ours. Again, I really think you're just making a specific effort NOT to understand where these sentiments come from when any person of a certain age or older and with any amount of knowledge about the world's/American history should and does know why the sentiments and sense of pride come from.

And Shinerbock, your willful reluctance to acknowledge the very REAL existence of consciousness of race in the inner-workings of every facet of this society is part of the problem in this country with working these things out. Every healing program on earth starts off by making their participants actully acknowledge that they have a problem. The society is no different. The changes that HAVE occured to date only occured because there were enough people that first acknowledged that there IS a problem and then undertook methods to fix it.

What a ridiculous response. I'm trying really hard to not understand you? Come on. History is irrelevant when you're talking about going for someone just because of their race isn't it? So because people discriminated against black people, its normal for black people to root for blacks over whites? Do I have pride that my family is Irish? Sure I suppose. Would I automatically side with people of Irish heritage simply because of that? Of course not. This is of course ignoring that that is a specific and rather small country, not an entire race of people.

I agree that race is a big deal in society, but not in the way you say it is. Everyone is prejudiced to a degree, I understand that. Do I think black people are discriminated against on a daily basis? Sure. How about for whites? Same answer. Please tell me how the current state of the NFL compares to the plight of previous generations of black people in this country. Please, explain to me what exactly you think is wrong. Show me where black coaches have recently been discriminated against. What is it you want to accomplish?

I'm not reading any further. It's my response. Take it or leave it. I could care less if you happen to think its rediculous. Hopefully someone else will benefit from my opinion and imput. I'm looking forward to the game. Being from Chicago, I'll be rooting for the Bears. Have a good one all.

I took and responded fairly reasonably, but alright. Go Colts, its time for Manning to solidify his position among the NFL's elite QB's.

...

Thank You for Your Insightful post!:D


Now, lets get down to Foot Ball! Like anyone cares?:( Wow and Indiania and Illonois Team.;)

No, let us get down to two Black Men who are coaching.

Do any of you think they give a damn? They are worried about coaching!:mad:

Congratulations to The Gentlemen who are Coaching!:D

May The Best Team Win!

Thank You for Your Insightful post!:D


Now, lets get down to Foot Ball! Like anyone cares?:( Wow and Indiania and Illonois Team.;)

No, let us get down to two Black Men who are coaching.

Do any of you think they give a damn? They are worried about coaching!:mad:

Congratulations to The Gentlemen who are Coaching!:D

May The Best Team Win!