I think what is considered hazing may go overboard a bit (for example giving the new members a test before initiation--who the founder's are, our colors, listing the greek alphabet, chapters on campus, etc. is now considered hazing), but I support our risk management policies 100%.

While I definitely agree with the reason for why we have risk management policies, I do think some things are overboard. I think if you look at what qualifies as hazing or a risk management violation for a fraternity or sorority, you'll see a huge double standard as to what other campus groups can do. I have done countless things at work (I work for the University), at student leadership retreats (sponsored by the University), and in non-Greek student groups that would get me in trouble if our chapter did the exact same activity, simply because we are Greek.

I agree with having the bases covered when protecting from litigation, but there is a point where Greeks are held to a much stricter standard than anyone else.

I agree that a lot of things are overboard, but it's the way it is because when Greeks had some leeway, they went overboard.

I think it's a combination of this and the fear every business and organization has these days...lawsuits.

Well, that's a given. Other campus groups wouldn't be absolved of liability if they went overboard with their requests. The difference is that they typically don't take it to that point.

Ex. Catholic Student Organization might do a scavenger hunt to welcome its newest members. It's unlikely, though, that they'll have 100 items on the list and require that the items be located at 1:00am. Unfortunately, many (older) Greeks couldn't be trusted to use common sense.

Some of the newer Greeks veer away from common sense once in a while, or so I've heard.

Isn't President Levin at Yale supposedly chatting (or going to chat) with a few folks about a possible lapse not too long ago, for instance?

Don't we claim to hold our members to a higher standard? We are selective organizations and every one of our organizations' purposes, creeds, mottos, visions, etc. pertain in some way to strengthening our ideals and character. If we don't walk the walk, we shouldn't talk the talk.

Which proves the point. If "we" continue to fuck up royally we're never getting our curfew extended, or the keys to the car back.

And as long as people have the attitude that you have to earn your letters with literal blood, sweat and tears, we're going to continue to fuck up.

Ten years ago, I would have said that they were too strict. Then I saw the budget for Pre-Clamp-Down and Post-Clamp-Down.

The bottom line is, for an inter/national organization, you have no choice. You have to do without "fun" things in the name of the GLO, and pay for insurance that sounds ridiculous. Each time you disobey these rules, you may as well say, "I'm in the mood to raise dues by $100/month per brother or sister," because that's what you're talking.

When you hear alumnae say how little they paid for dues compared to what active members pay now, it all comes down to insurance.

It's not about going without "fun." It's about groups going so overboard with CYA measures (and often egged on by the insurance companies, who couldn't care less about the overall health of the GLO as long as they get their $$) that members come out of pledgeship with little to no knowledge of their group's history, operations or policies. Case in point: the huge amount of GC posts on "can I quit my sorority and pledge somewhere else?"

I mean, at this point, let's call a spade a spade and initiate people when we give them their bid, then educate them as members. It seems to be the only way to get around the asinine "hazing" accusations. If we end up having to terminate scores of people who turn out to be crappy members AFTER they know our ritual and have damaged the health of the chapter, well hey, no biggie.

Real hazing - beating, forced drinking, mental anguish - obviously hasn't been legislated away by all these rules or insurance policies. Just look at the U of Alberta thread. If all this has been done and there are STILL groups hazing in that manner, it's not very effective IMO. It's completely failed to send a message or make the students understand why it's wrong.

As far as alcohol goes, most of the problems would be completely eradicated if states were given back their right to allow drinking (fully or partially) at age 18.

You'd need to know whether that happened prior to anti-hazing laws and in what frequency.

What things could my chapter, for example, have done that would have been considered 'hazing' yet would have actually made me a better member? Why do those activities actually mean that people learn shit about anything?
If you have to haze to get "good" members, you're only going to get people who value hazing.

Without looking at the actual rate of the occurrence of those incidents this is a very flawed statement. "It hasn't completely solved the problem so we should get rid of it completely" doesn't make much sense. You'd have to show that there's been no effect or an increase to incidents of hazing to effectively make this point.

States can make that choice at any time. They choose not to in exchange for $$$$. They have 'their right' fully intact. :rolleyes:

Also if you think lowering the drinking age would magically change the drinking culture in America, I think you're being rather short-sighted. Binge drinking is accepted as normal for college students of age or not. Making it legal gets around only the legal issues, not the health, safety, or hazing ones.

Considering I'm talking about the people who are in college now, umm, yeah, that would be AFTER the nonhazing laws.

I have no idea what your chapter did, before or after you pledged, so how can I even answer that? I can only speak for my own org and say there is definitely less knowledge of history and policy than there used to be.

I didn't say to get rid of it. I said that AS WRITTEN, anti-hazing legislation hasn't been as effective as it should be, in exchange for what GLOs have had to give up. They need to say "X is wrong, Y is wrong" and give specific examples, not BS like "anything that causes physical or mental anguish." Hell, if I have a hemmerhoid, sitting in a chapter meeting for an hour & 1/2 is "physical anguish."

Binge drinking is accepted as normal because that's all these students have ever known. Would it magically change in a year? No. Would it change over time? Yes. It took time to get where it is. When I was in college, 21 shots for your 21st birthday and drinking the amounts of hard alcohol current college students drink just wasn't normal. Nowadays it's a rite of passage. If those students had had time to drink like jackasses when they were younger (and often under their parents' roof) they might be a little saner about it when they came to college. Everyone is going to be stupid at first. Better to be stupid in an environment where you're going to get called on it rather than someplace where you're on your own to do whatever you want.

The point was, you don't know whether the numbers of ignorant people have changed or not.



It was a hypothetical. Why can't you teach these things without hazing? How is it that some of us figure it out just fine?



I think the use of the word "anguish" is key. And that would fall under a medical excuse for chapter for most people. if you make specific examples - "no scavenger hunts"- people get around them by holding "go and find things" events. Every would-be hazer goes and looks to check if paddling with a paddle is prohibited, but using a shoe is OK!



Why would it change 'back' to the way things were? How are you going to convince people to allowe 18 year olds to drink when you've acknowledged that it would not create an instant change, and in fact would probably make things worse, even if it was only temporary.

I'd think the first night at college would turn into a rite of passage instead. (How ever did I make it through life without ever being drunk or being hazed or making any of these other rites of passage that are so 'important') Many of today's college students do drink like jackasses under their parents' roof and that really hasn't fixed the problem either. "Everyone" isn't stupid.

I think America's attitude toward's alcohol is fucked up, but lowering the drinking age won't magically solve the problem and it puts alcohol into high schools. (you know, legally, instead of illegally where it already exists).

A specific example would be "No physical contact: this includes paddling, hitting, shoving, pushing" and so forth. That's the POINT. You say what it actually is, not just the title of the thing.

Congratulations on making it through college on a plane above everyone else. :rolleyes: Although that really doesn't answer any of the questions we are discussing.

With your example you could not hug your sisters, nor shake hands, etc. There's no way to craft that kind of law, that's why courts exist in the first place. But you neglect to address the point about whether hazing (or 'hazing') actually creates members who know more, or just creates more hazers. Unless the NPC or NIC (or anyone) have done studies about member knowledge before and after hazing, none of us can really say whether it's hurt or helped or something in between. I challenge your assumption that somehow members know less now or would know more if they could be hazed. Frankly I think we'd just have fewer members and it wouldn't be the 'good ones' who stayed.

And as far as drinking goes -My point, you missed it. People treat hazing like a rite of passage too. "I did it, so you do it." But it's not necessary, no more so than 21 shots must be used to celebrate your 21st. But just as laws have not removed all hazing, legalizing drinking for all college students will not remove binge drinking.

You started by stating that states needed 'their rights' back, then backpedaled to "well they'd learn at home" and now you decided to make it about my sarcastic comment rather than "the questions we are discussing."

The assumption that every college student is going to be stupid is part of the problem. The expectation has been created, too many kids try to live up to it.

But again you neglected to respond to how precisely you'd sell lowering the drinking age when your own expected response would be increased stupidity until 'things change' at some unspecified future date. It's not happening, right? Same thing with hazing, you can't sell it that way either.

Why is it so difficult to just not haze? (It's not.) Even if some of the rules are annoying, or excessive for your individual chapter, it's not much different from following the speed limit because it's the limit. Just because you can drive 80 'safely' doesn't mean you should, or that the cops are going to be ok with it because they know you. Just because your chapter can 'handle' hazing behaviors without crossing the line doesn't mean you should.

Not to put words in 33's mouth, but I don't think she's talking about hazing as being hazing per se, i.e., causing extreme physical or mental anguish. She's talking about how hazing has been so broadly defined as it can mean just about anything.

I agree. Our respective new member programs are not very good insofar as teaching history, etc. Some organizations can't even administer tests.. because that'd be "hazing" according to them.

So I guess the answer to your question "Why is it so difficult to just not haze?" is pretty simple--it's too damned hard to know what is hazing and what isn't.

This has to do with how organizations train members and prospective members. I can only speak for what Delta does. Members aren't just "thrown in with the wolves" and prospective members are given more than just an anti-hazing policy. Even with just Delta's Anti-Hazing policy, it is pretty straight forward in that it encompasses a lot but members generally know what is and is not hazing. Members can think what they are doing is harmless or beneficial but they typically don't claim they didn't know it is considered hazing. They may not agree with it being called hazing but they know that it is.

Delta's new member program is designed to teach history and develop sisterhood and service with no real need for hazing.

It is not difficult not to haze. Orgs generally have a pretty clear policy on the matter. As well as NM programs. The point is, what exactly about hazing or "hazing" would make new members actually learn history? How are the two related? (Something beyond tests).

Speaking for the women I know (both in my chapter and others on my campus/local campuses) just about everyone knows what is and isn't hazing, as we're all taught the definition. If they don't, it's because they didn't listen/read. As you said, regardless of how they feel about whatever activity, they still don't act like it doesn't fall under the definition of hazing.

I think we've answered this question in this thread before.

Here's another example:
When I was young, I remembered things for my classes by doing things like making songs and doing jumping jacks while reciting things. I still remember some of these things 20 years later.

The same applies to GLO chapters that utilize such methods to give prospectives other ways to learn and remember information. Not every GLO chapter does things because they are trying to be dominant and mean to "pledges." Some of them really thing they are being helpful and creative. Is this considered hazing for many organizations? Yes. Will it always be reported? No. Why not? Because members and even many prospectives find it harmless and useful. Until? Someone doesn't want to do it, someone gets hurt doing it, or members begin to go too far with it.

Yep. There are exceptions where something really seemed harmless and nonhazing but that was based on perception (or other contextual factors). That's also a risk that members take when they knowingly do things that aren't part of the official membership process.

Oh it's certainly been discussed before. But, while putting things to song, or reciting them repeatedly can certainly help people remember them, I don't really see why being required to do so while doing forced physical exertion is actually helpful. Teach the NMs a song to learn the Greek Alphabet? Sure.

And you're right, not every type of hazing is coming from a mean spirited place. But there's no way for a national organization to effectively police that, nor for the legal system to craft a law that allows the "ok" stuff without allowing for the harmful, degrading, and otherwise pointless stuff as well.

I don't know. I mean I know where they are coming from. I think hazing can go too far sometimes which I mean I understand why risk management has to be the way it is. Sometimes though you hear about others houses who let up a little and they seem fine. It's just such a tricky line it seems like to cross.

I don't think they go "too far," but the thing is, whatever the rules or policies are, they need to be enforced. Just having the written rule is no protection. They must be enforced.

Doesn't intent come into play with most laws though?

Sometimes we go overboard a little, yes. But there's a fine line between protection and overprotection...

True, but most of the time, if it is in the list of "Thou shalt not", then someone has done it and had it go wrong...

Though I do like it when things are expressed in positive terms. For example.
1) Run pledging like the editor of the school newspaper is at your events
2) Run initiation like your National President is there
3) Pledging should take as much time as one of the pledges classes.

Allegations of hazing at Harvard by Greeks, final clubs, and other organizations:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/20...ns-at-harvard/

Moderately long article includes some mention of state laws, the policies of at least one GLO, and so on.

spam bump

On my campus, we were told we cannot use the nickname "Baby Hooties" because it is name calling and hazing, despite the fact that members in my new members class loved it and used it to refer to our class.

There have been at least three (possibly more) statements/blog posts from different GLOs addressing why new members are not referred to as "baby _____". There's a thread somewhere around GC on this very topic.

Here you go: Stop the "Baby" Talk.

I recognize that my experience isn't universal, but I've personally never met a collegian who had a problem with the "Baby" terms. In fact, I much more often hear older actives lament how much they miss being the "babies." I think the vast majority of this spurt of anti-baby sentiment is coming from older alumnae and advisors.

While I do think articles such as the one posted above are well thought out and well written, I have to say that I feel like my feelings about the issue are similar to the way many alumnae feel about the switch from "rush" and "pledge" to "recruitment" and "new member" - overly PC and fixing something that wasn't broken. I recognize I'm in the minority here, but I think it might have to do with my generation - many of us wear bows, dress up in footie pjs, and have no issues with other cutesy things that may be associated with youth.

"Baby thetas" was a term always used endearingly (though not condescendingly, or at least not overtly so) in the same way my older sister might call me her "baby sister" even though I'm 21. It merely meant someone new, someone to guide and mentor, someone to spoil rotten, and someone to teach what being a Theta was all about. My chapter follows our strict hazing guidelines to a T - no new member tests, scavenger hunts, or anything of the like. New members always know that we are a chapter that values them, their safety, and their happiness.

So now, when advisors came out with the no baby mandate, they've been completely ignored. Some actives changed their vocab for the few times we're around advisors, but absolutely no one sees the point of the change, and pretty much everyone finds it ridiculous. All of us still use the term. I feel like this resistance is going to be common when older and younger sorority members are so at odds on the issue.

PS. I promise my username is simply a nod to the song, and has nothing to do with this issue (:

When I was a pledge sister, I hated being called a baby penguin. I was 21 at the time and thought it was demeaning. Fortunately I never heard the initiated members refer to me like that--only some of my fellow pledge sisters.

That being said, I have never met anyone else who had a problem with it as a collegian.

"Baby" has been effectively nipped in the bud at the campus where I advise. A couple groups were starting to use it, and the Director of Greek Life made it a personal mission to eradicate the term. I'm not sure when the term came into use, but I don't like it. I saw bid day pictures of new members wearing pacifier necklaces a couple years ago, and I find that demeaning.

This is another problem with it - the level that it's taken to sometimes. What was that one line used about the baby kittens (Thetas) running to their litter box? Yea... that's a little ridiculous.

I was never into "cutesy" things in college. If someone tried calling me a "baby" anything, I'd be completely turned off.

You're trying to attract new members.. not push them away.

Yeah, the littler box and pacifier thing are completely taking it too far. I guess it's a lot like the scavenger hunts - people who take things too far will ruin something that was once innocent and not meant to be demeaning

I'm wondering if any risk management policy actually specifically mentions Photo scavenger hunts as being OK. I know it is still possible to get cutsey and wrong on these (get us a picture of a naked 4 year old and what the members *expect* you to do is take a picture of the school mascot, a live pig) but it still seems less obnoxious.

It's ironic that all this "baby" talk has come about because pledges weren't allowed to be called pledges. I had zero problem with being referred to as a pledge, but anyone who called me a "baby bug" would have gotten smacked upside the head.

Let's just face it, "new member" is awfully lame and clinical and you don't want to call someone who's going to be your SISTER something lame and clinical.

Precisely.

It's a bit of a lane swerve, but I find the "baby" stuff being hazing to be completely absurd. Try telling a jury you were hazed because someone called you a baby whatever. They'd think you were an idiot and promptly return a defendant's verdict.

It appears some NPC groups have forgotten what hazing really is. It's kind of like the zero tolerance policies you hear about at schools where kids are suspended for bringing little GI*Joe guns to school.