Completely correct. When the nationals preach liberalism, unsatisfactory pledge programs, untolerable rules and so on, the chapters should leave. The Kappa Sig's here are powerful enough to leave nationals.

Those weren't the values I was talking about....those things are programs, and that is completely different.

Is that at Arkansas or LSU?

But I believe EW is saying that he believes that the enaction of those programs shows that the organization no longer espouses the values they did previously.

To be really simplistic, if one of the values of your org is high scholarship and you enact a program that says you don't need a minimum GPA to join, that would say to me the org no longer cares about scholarship as a value.

In FIJI's case.....no. They are pretty much already diasaffiliated. They are extremely wealthy. Nationals can't take away private donations and funding.

If a fraternity that has a house disaffiliates, what happens to the house?

Not sure, but Dook does not have fraternity houses. They live in sections rather which is nothing more than a dorm.

Also, don't quote me on this, but I thought Dook's other local fraternity was in danger of losing their charter, so they broke with Nationals instead. Kind of a "you can't fire me because I quit!" type statement.

The house remains in the possession of who owns it. Which could be any or the following. The chapter's housing corporation, the GLO's inter/national headquarters, the GLO's inter/national housing corporation, the university, or the landlord if leased.

Arkansas, but both could do it. The LSU chapter I was with was damn good and respected by nationals to a high degree. We could have crapped on a floor at Conclave and they would've saved it as a way to make their chapter better.

I wonder if they'll be called Gamma Sigma

That's right. At those schools, the national college alumni networks are so powerful in and of themselves, and the chapters so densely packed with people who will become highly successful in different fields, that the network from that one chapter will provide everything you need.

I went to a small private school that is extremely selective with its admissions, and our greek system actually moved from locals to nationals ten years ago. Why? Because with the local system, no one was in control. Hazing was a problem, and with no national organizations to watch over the chapters, they did whatever they wanted. The national organizations have established programming, are willing to work with the school, and have brought in more members to the greek system.

I think most groups go local when they don't want to follow the rules. They thought joining a fraternity/sorority would be all fun & games, then when they joined, they were disappointed to find order instead.

For some groups, especially at "elite" schools, I think it may have more to do with personalities and life experience. The kids at Ivies, or similar, fought to get to the top of their high school classes so they could be at the best colleges. They weren't content to be one of the pack...they were independent. Many are very ambitious leaders and like doing things their way. Some are control freaks. Maybe they find locals better suit their desire to have complete control and do things their way.

...just another way of looking at things.

Texas Fiji
 

One of the four most prominent chapters at UT-Austin, their house is a landmark named something close to Buen Retiro if I remember correctly, this house has hands down the best location at UT right on Guadelupe they own a lakehouse, are strong in Spurs (the guys who tend Bevo)and Cowboys( the guys who shoot the cannon) and were a pretty decent group of guys. On a social level their only competition is SAE, KA and Delt, Sig Ep is a step down Maybe Phi Psi.

I know there are several chapters of old-line fraternities that have gone local in the the South. Vandy has their old Sigma Nu chapter still going strong, and I think that Phi Delt is still there as a local.
Sewanee's and Virginia's Phi delt chapters pulled out over dry house and pledge program issues. I know Kappa Sig's been pulling charters at several schools, including the MySpace (or Facebook) fiasco at Ole Miss. I don't know if any of them are planning on continuing or not.

Also, regarding our (ADPhi) new affiliate at Duke, I know that they felt that they wanted what a national organization had to offer, just not what their old national was offering. We have resisted the dry house and pledge program purging trends, and are doing quite well.

So, I just wonder how many Brothers/Sisters they would have to come back to in later Years?:confused:

WOW, how many would they know over the years and all over the world?

This is a good point. A lot of locals probably proactively go that way once they catch on that national is going to pull the charter.

What in the world is the "MySpace fiasco?"

As I recall, of the ones you have listed, only Phi Delta Theta's chapter at Sewanee decided to disaffiliate and become a local. The "Phi Society" or something like that.

Vanderbilt's Sigma Nu and Phi Delta Theta are in the process of re-colonizing. Virginia's Phi Delta Theta chapter was re-colonized a few years back. As for Kappa Sigma at Ole Miss, I believe they are still on suspension. But frankly, I venture to guess that given Kappa Sigma's tradition at Ole Miss, they too will be back. Not sure if they will "need to" re-colonize or not. But if so, I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't happen sooner than later.

You are correct, but in all these cases, the original group remains as a local fraternity. Depending on the attitudes of alumni, some have continued to support the old chapter, some have supported the new group.
The Old Phi Delt at Virginia is also called "Phi Society" and the Sigma Nu Chapter is called "Sigma Society".

After posting yesterday, I realized that just because the inter/national is re-colonizing, it does not mean that a local group may also exist. So this morning, I checked both Sewanee's and Virginia's Greek Life websites and yep, both The Phi Society of 1883 (at Sewanee) and Phi Society (at Virginia) are recognized by the university (IFC). I also checked Vanderbilt's and came across this. (Note: I didn't find any reference to "Sigma Society" at any of the colleges.)

"This is a complete list [all are NIC, NPHC and FLA member fraternities] of all of the recognized fraternities at Vanderbilt University. As you meet students on campus and make your decision about joining a Greek organization, it is important that you consider membership only in the groups listed above. Both Sigma Nu and Phi Delta Theta will be recolonizing on our campus this year. It is important to understand that only representatives from those national organizations will be extending invitations for membership in the new group."

While no "locals" were listed on the Vanderbilt site, it does seem to imply that there *might* be unrecognized or underground "local" groups.

Now without university or Greek Life (IFC) support or recognition, and even with alumni support, how do these disaffiliated groups survive? Or perhaps another way to ask this might be "how well" do they survive? Especially when an "official" and recognized chapter of the fraternity (that the group disaffiliated from) is on campus? As an example, from the article posted at the start of the thread: "...unrecognized groups also cannot hold official events with recognized greek organizations." I don't think that helps with rush.

I don't think that "...unrecognized groups also cannot hold official events with recognized greek organizations" really prevents that much. When I was in school the Delta Sig chapter was not recognized by the campus. They still managed to post fliers, have good size pledge classes, and have exchanges with the sororities. They got back recognition during by senior year, I think, and everything continued as normal.

They often do have alumni support.

It actually never ceases to amaze me when a Chapter thinks that they are bigger than the whole.

They feel that they are better than the total Fraternity?

They do not agree with the policys that are set forth not just by their National, but by the members who comprise the General Fraternity, their own Brothers.

Maybe a good analogy would be, being on an ocean liner or a row boat.

So a whoopie school like *Dook* is special, there is a bigger world out there for them to see.

I appreciate your reply. In your scenario, it sounds like an IFC/NIC chapter was on some sort of *campus* probation or suspension. They were able to pledge and have exchanges with sororities and they even "got back recognition" later. However, the issue is a disaffiliated group that is not recognized by the campus and is not affiliated with any IFC/NIC fraternity.

I don't doubt that. But when a chapter of the IFC/NIC fraternity is also on campus, I would venture to guess that the alumni support might very well be diluted. Some will be loyal to the disaffiliated group, others to the IFC/NIC chapter, and others to both. Given the resources that the national can also pour into the chapter, it seems that the disaffiliated group might be perceived to be at a disadvantage.

Now in addition to alumni support, what are the advantages - real or perceived - in joining a disaffiliated group of ABC (The A Society) that is not recognized by the campus when there is an active ABC chapter - that is recognized by the campus - on said campus? And what are the disadvantages - real or perceived?

I don't know about Duke, but yes - schools can refuse to allow local groups to join the campus IFC. Many campus IFCs require that groups either belong to a national GLO, be a colony of a national GLO, or an interest group. No, not all campuses, but many.

Okay, am I hallucinating, or did I just reply to a post by MadMax that said "What can the campus do, kick them out?" (or in some such words.) And now that post is gone?

The University of Kentucky has that policy. And this policy covers all "social" GLOs including, but not limited, to NPC members, NPHC members and IFC/NIC members.

Note: there are three social sororities on campus that are not part of any council or conference - Ceres, Gamma Gamma Chi and Phi Sigma Rho - but all have an inter/national board.

I don't recall MadMax posting in this thread. Are you sure you just haven't started celebrating the weekend a little early this week? :cool:

The October 19 Duke Chronicle has an editorial supporting the option of local fraternities:

http://www.dukechronicle.com/media/s...echronicle.com

Interesting read, but is there not already an ADPhi organization?

If they had no house, that could also be a problem for them.

Now, it seems they may have a bigger problem being a very small fish in the biggr pond.

If the Alumni do not back them, they better have deep pockets to pay for insurance. If they do not have insurance then the local members will be responsible for any R M problems.:(

A very deep decission to be and has been made!:rolleyes:

Duke is not the only School with a good reputation are they?

Look around.

Good article.

To be clear, I understand and support members of a chapter (even the whole chapter) that might disaffiliate from their inter/national fraternity because they no longer feel "connected" to it. Hell, Sigma Chi Fraternity was founded after six members of Delta Kappa Epsilon's Miami chapter resigned. I do want to add that Sigma Chi Fraternity was founded with the concept of being a national fraternity and not a "rouge" chapter of Deke at Miami. And no, I don't feel that any disaffiliated group needs to do that (i.e. be national).

However, just because a group does not want to abide by campus rules, they should not be given a free pass. They can work to change the campus culture. And if the campus decides to change their rules, then great. But if not, then the group needs to either adapt or stay off campus. By "off campus" I mean not recognized nor have any of the rights and privileges afforded recognized campus groups.


I am still curious what the situation is like where there is both a disaffiliated group and the chapter and both are recognized by the campus.

Intersting Question
 

Epsilon Theta is a local fraternity at MIT, it was a Sigma Nu Chapter from 1922-1977, Sigma Nu recolonized at MIT in the late 1990's lets get KT Snake or some other active Sigma Nu poster's take on this, what say you on the situation at MIT does the former chapter hurt the new chapter

Epsilon Theta is also now a co-ed organization that bears little to no resemblance to a traditional men's fraternity chapter. I don't think they impact each other at all- they draw from completely different pools of students.

(ETA- is the MIT Sigma Nu house the old Fiji house?)

I have lots of friends at Duke, and I've had a bit of exposure to their Greek system through them. The impression that I get is that, in recent years, Theta Chi has really been struggling with numbers (they lost their section on campus a couple years ago because they repeatedly failed to fill it) and that, no matter which way the chapter is trying to paint their motivation, it's probably more of a "you can't fire me, I quit!" kind of move in regards to their national.

As far as Eta Prime and what used to be Delta Phi Alpha, they were chapters of Kappa Sigma and SAE that disaffiliated with their national after being threatened with sanctions - Kappa Sigma had a pledge hospitalized with alcohol poisoning and then an intoxicated brother fall from a window when they were supposed to be dry (link), and SAE, among other serious issues, had a 16 year old girl allege that she was raped while attending a party there (link). However, this does not seem to have remotely stunted their recruitment and socialization efforts, especially the latter. As you can see in the Chronicle article, every time either is mentioned, it is always "Eta Prime - formerly Kappa Sigma", etc. so they retain the informal recognition that way. The school has also made a practice of sending letters to the parents of freshmen warning them about these unaffiliated fraternities, which of course heightens the "forbidden fruit" factor. Yet, they never seem to have any problems recruiting or mixing with the well-regarded sororities on campus, however against the rules that might be, and Eta Prime even enjoyed some notoriety last year after several women were found baby oil wrestling in the basement of their off-campus house when police came to investigate a noise complaint. However, I do find it interesting that Delta Phi Alpha has decided to pursue affiliation with a national fraternity in spite of their insisting for years that they were getting along fine without one.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, just wanted to shed some light on the "off-campus fraternity" situation at Duke since I know a little bit about it. It just seems to me that this is less of a rebellion but rather more of a desperation move on the part of this chapter, but that's just me speculating.

No, I attend Columbia University.

The one in NYC? So I was right the first time?

Yes.