Well my first clue would be engineering and music performance.

Isn't the legality the real thing at hand?

Many States are writing Laws concerning this and taking it out of the hands of All GLOs.

The reason these Laws are being written were because of stupidity of said GLOs.

While all Nationals have Laws, sometimes they are not followed and this is where it leads.

I was fortunite enough to see a STG tag on a car in front of my store and caught the guy.

He was an Alum from My School and We had a great talk and found out He works with one of My Brothers and know his Dad from The PD.

I am sure We will talk again!

That is what being a Greek Organizarion is all about.:D

And that would show the depth of your understanding of the two. There are definite ways that music and math compliment each other, and math is certainly a huge part of engineering. The logic of the two are very much alike. Music is based on math in many ways.

Our son talked about, and was accepted into, a dual degree program offered at Northwestern in engineering and music.

The two work very well together.

By the way, what is your insinuation about someone who is interested in both?

The trouble is that laws have been written which are not at all practical and in many cases, I think, Unconstitutional.

They are emotionally overreactive statutes embraced by politicians who- in some cases- have a personal hatred for Greek organizations similar to a dislike of private schools or country clubs.

Any attempt to discuss this will be countered with bringing forth the mother of a deceased fraternity member who will make an emotional appeal that has nothing to do with underlying law. It is like trotting out Christopher Reeve every time there is a debate about stem cel research- it is an attempt to trump reasoned argument with emotion.

The trouble in fraternities is alcohol abuse- not hazing. If you look through the "Wrongs of Passage" Appendix A, you will find that many- if not most- of the incidents reported are not hazing incidents, but alcohol-related tragedies that happen to non-Greeks all the time.

Actual enforcement of hazing law is very much in line with what reasonable people think. Advocates fought to get hazing laws because they felt schools and local law enforcement officers were not applying existing laws regarding alcohol use, battery, etc. properly in claimed hazing incidents.

However, they have now seen that hazing laws intended to cover the same crimes but in a tougher way are not being enforced either.

And so it comes to light that the issue is not that laws were never in place to address criminal behavior- but that fraternities are just like any other group of people who associate for any reason, that such association is voluntary and that individuals within such groups may do things like drive drunk or fall off buildings that do not necessarily mean the entire organization should be disbanded or have their rights to exist and operate taken away.

What needs to happen is that a good test case needs to be used to challenge the Constitutionality of hazing laws.

Meantime, since the laws are not enforced I am sure things will continue as they have in the past.

Unfortunately, because of the current statutes- it is not possible for people to come into open forums like this and have substantive discussions about good Risk Management Policy because everything we say will be in furtherance of something now designated to be a crime (that is a crime if you happen to belong to a fraternity and not one of many other types of organizations with membership requirements and a trial period of association.)

So the debate remains behind closed doors and we all have to pay more for insurance as things just go on as before.

The answer is to do your homework before taking a bid, learn your personal boundaries and stick to them and have a little faith in the brotherhood. We stood up as a pledge class when we needed to and got respect for it. And we would not have pledged in the first place if we thought we were joining a group that would not respect that kind of initiative.

Your mileage may vary based on what you want in a fraternity.

Until I see evidence of a dramatic rise in serious hazing incidents, I am not going to believe there is a problem to address outside of the fact of life that everything a person does entails risk and that this is not a perfect world.

And I should note I mean a dramatic rise in true hazing incidents. Fraternity members driving drunk or falling off buildings are not "hazing incidents"- thought they are regularly treated as such in the press.

Alcohol problems are a reflection of a chapter- not Greek Life. Chapters that party hard will attract new members who want the same. It is not a reflection of fraternities being inherently bad- it is a reflection that chapters attract new members who want the sort of life the chapter offers.

I made no comments about whether engineering and music compliment each other. I'm simply saying such majors are not usually the kinds of people who end up in top tier fraternities.

Agreed. Political Science, Business, and so on are generally thought to be good fraternity majors.

Great. One guy doesn't make a chapter. I know plenty of guys that are in bad chapters that I would consider friends and all around good guys.

You are being ridiculous. For your information...I do have expansive knowledge of the fraternity scene at OU. I almost went there....and I have family there. I have tons of friends there. I have been there plenty of times. Its not my opinion. Its the truth. I haven't heard it second hand..I have seen it first hand.

I never said the men in the fraternity were not good guys. I didn't say anything close to that. Thanks though. I said they were a bad chapter. There are bad chapters everywhere whether you like it or not. Sorry that I go to school at a major Southern university where greek life is extremely competetive and often times the bad are separated from the good. OU is like that. Same with Texas, Alabama, Ole Miss, UGA, Auburn, etc. etc.

Other than that, I never showed any disrespect for anyone. I acknowledged that KTSnake didn't go to OU and that I was well aware that SN had extremely good chapters at many schools that I have been to.

Thanks for the lecture though......and thanks for letting everyone know for the 1029387 time that hazing is illegal. I really could care less. We are all well aware of which lines can be crossed and which shouldn't. I don't need any sort of approval from someone on an online message board.......if you think me stating that a chapter is bad throws out your notion of a "Southern Gentleman" than so be it. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Hazing can help build men and women
 

Drunken driving or falling out of a window, inebriated, while partying, don't really constitute hazing to my way of thinking. Humiliating, terrorizing, injuring or killing...however...may be a bit excessive, although they are certainly effective for 1) building pledge class loyalty and solidarity 2) "toughening up" pledges for the trials they'll inevitably face later in life, and 3) providing a final mechanism for "weeding out" someone found (during the later stages of pledging) to be undesirable for membership.

- Prunetacos

Killing...........haha, classic.

No seriously, don't kill a pledge. It becomes a much greater bonding experience if you wait until the 10th week or so, and then make the pledges vote and kill one of their own.

Pledges
 

Any suggestions as to how they decide? Rock, paper, scissors? Draw straws? How about sending them out into a grizzly sanctuary, finding one of the animals, throw rocks at it, then run? The slowest pledge buys the farm. That should build ambition. Also, good exercise.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger" - Friedrich Nietzsche

I was always up for a classic duel between pledges. Either with swords or black powder muskets at a distance of 35 paces.

Swords and Muskets and Pledges - Cool!!
 

Rifled, or unrifled muskets? Did you get to put on a Redcoat, or wear a coonskin cap? I hope nobody dressed up as Santa Anna. :D

Remember the Alamo!!

It is amazing how assumptions are made isnt it?

A well rounded Chapter has many from various fields dont they?

If hazing is invlolved as DeltAlum said who loses if they are caught?

Yours,, Mine, and ours are the ones who lose.

Laff while you may, but it does and will happen and can be seen so many times over on GC!

The escalation of costs because of R M insurance raises the cost of being in a Greek Organization and few PNMs will feel like they can,t afford it and or won't join.:(


Fun and games now, but when You anyone of You Graduate, why do you go back to Your School? For The School or Your Brothers and Sisters?

It depends on what is being done, hazing wise. You might be right about the costs for new members and how it may be a deterrent......but I really can't comment on that because paying dues.....no matter the cost is really not a big deal for my family.

I'll go back to my school to support athletics and for any huge SAE events that they may have in Austin.....such as founders day. I'll support UT much more from a standpoint of being in the Texas Exes Alumni Association than I will from being an SAE. Yeah, i'll make yearly donations to the chapter and i'll go to tailgates with other Alumni and my pledge brothers......but to be honest.......when I am middle aged and have a career.....being in a fraternity isn't going to be the highlight of my life or something that I make a point to really keep up with....aside from the activities that I mentioned. There comes a time when you need to move on. Every man in my family is Greek.....and they all have felt the same way.

Brother Tex;
Is this the record of your chapter?:
Sigma Alpha Epsilon Hazing Suspension Suspension through Fall 2005, Probation through Fall 2006

http://www.utexas.edu/student/regist.../app/appf.html

http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/gle...n-Summer05.pdf

If so, just what happened from your side?

And remember what happened to my chapter when they not only ignored their first problem, they just kept right on going......down for the count.........
http://www.ups.edu/x4812.xml
And hazing was almost the least of their problems........

P.S.: Just found these on the Princeton Review new rankings of 2006-2007 Best 361 Schools:
http://www.princetonreview.com/colle...D=3&topicID=26 #1

http://www.princetonreview.com/colle...D=3&topicID=34 #8

http://www.princetonreview.com/colle...D=3&topicID=28 #13

http://www.princetonreview.com/colle...D=3&topicID=30 #2

http://www.princetonreview.com/colle...D=3&topicID=32 #3

http://www.princetonreview.com/colle...ID=1&topicID=4 #6

Does anyone there get an education? LOL ;>D

Tom,

I'll go back with hopes of seeing my friends and fraternity brothers, but my loyalty to my school exceeds that which I have towards my national fraternity.

Shiner-It took me years before I placed my school at an even level with my Greek life. Perhaps due to the anti-Greek Admin when I first started-now very different. To each their own.......
http://www.princetonreview.com/colle...=1&intbucketid=

Kay-Do not even give that any thought. It seems as if Shiner is a grad of UGA and will be going to Law School this year-perhaps at UG.

If you are questioning the academic integrity of the University of Texas.....then you must be severely out of the loop.

According to US News:
1.) Top 15 ranked Engineering School, (Number 1 in Petroleum Engineering)
2.) Top 15 Law School
3.) Top 20 Medical School
4.) Top 20 Business School
5.) Top 50 National University (America's Best Colleges)

The incident with SAE a couple years back, while none of your concern, was dealt with fairly easily, with little problems. Don't go by what you read on a website....thats all I am going to say.

"That web site" is an official UT page. Which is one of the reasons I asked you to explain your side of the story.

And we all are products of our life experiences. Our beliefs, our opinions, our actions et al.

If one looks at posting in GC, one can break down into almost two groups what kind of Greek life each poster had.

And yes, Greek life and the rest of School exprerinces are only part of one's life.

And your list is mostly about the Grad schools, which are a bit different from under grad.......

And to be fair here is the link for my school:
http://www.princetonreview.com/colle...1023493&LTID=1

BTB: Back in the day, UPS was listed in the top ten ( IIRC top five ) party schools by either Playboy or Esquire Mags.
Things change and evolve....as do people....life experience......

Are you kidding me man? Read number 5 please. Hell, look it up. The University of Texas...is a Top 50 National University and has been in the top 50 pretty much every year on the list of America's Best Colleges. Yes, the grad school is phenomenal......so is the undergrad...which is why I posted the overall school ranking at the end of the list.

I really can't believe you are still trying to present some kind of argument.

I don't see him questioning the academics of UTexas. He did ask what your version of the events surrounding your chapter being put on suspension by the university.
If so, just what happened from your side?

You have stated that "nothing really happened". He and others are curious to your chapters version of the events. Plain and simple.

Hummmm-A story from US News mostly about Grad schools vs an offical UT school web site and http://www.princetonreview.com/colle...s/rankings.asp

http://www.princetonreview.com/colle...ankingsFAQ.asp

http://www.princetonreview.com/colle...nkingspr07.asp

on Under-grad schools.

Which is what this thread and most of GC is all about.

And just in from FOX News:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,209656,00.html

"It contrasts with U.S. News and World Report's annual guide to "America's Best Colleges," where UT-Austin tied with four other schools in 47th place."
"Despite those efforts, a freshman died of acute alcohol poisoning in December as a result of fraternity hazing.
Tests showed Phanta "Jack" Phoummarath's blood alcohol level was 0.50 percent, more than six times the legal limit. University officials canceled Lambda Phi Epsilon's status as a registered student organization until 2011 after an investigation found new members were expected to drink large amounts of liquor."
http://www.wfmynews2.com/news/waterc...?storyid=69676

But Brother, you at least represent yourself.

That is an intersting perspetive.

Your School Letters mean more to You than Your Brothers of Your Chapter or Fraternity?:(

If My Chapter was not there, I would never go back!

It is also one of the strongest Schools in it's Division.:D

But, if I go back to all of the games who in the heck would I know?

Who would I tailgate with and talk to?

I go back and do all of the above with My Brothers!:D

Oh, I also go back over to Arrrowhead, Home of KC Cheifs for the Fall Classic of The Pitt and NWMoUn.

How many Div. schools like mine play in NFL Stadiums?;)

Tom, notice I said national fraternity. If for some reason I ever had to make a choice between my chapter and my school, I guess I'd pick my chapter, but that would never happen as the two are so deeply intertwined. Supporting Auburn is basically one of our central core values, and I think I speak for everyone in my chapter in that I'd side with Auburn before my national HQ. Its tough to describe.

As to Jon, I'm not sure what "UG" is but I go to UGA, yes. I didn't graduate from here however.

Be kind. My alma mater is on four of those six.

Thank you Shiner I corrected my slight spelling error.

Not sure just what to make of "....but I go to UGA, yes. I didn't graduate from here however".

Well, you implied that I had graduated from UGA, which I havent. At least thats how it sounded to me.

What are you trying to prove? I really don't understand you. Are you trying to discredit the rankings of the university because a kid died?

Texas is a Top 50 National University. It has been for quite a while. Grad School....I would say Top 20.

Again, what is your point with all of these Princeton Review party, drug, alcohol statistics.

Frankly, I think US News is a much more reliable source....but whatever floats your boat.

Brother;
Answer the question.

And yes, I still think our little discussion here is much like a 'family' fight.

What question? If you want to know about the incident...I don't have anything to tell you. Its not something that I am going to discuss on a message board or really anyone that wasn't involved for that matter. Like I said......everything turned out just fine. No problems from my point of view.

Other than that......I don't see much of a discussion. You are posting a bunch or random stuff in what seems like some effort to discredit the academic integrity of Texas. For what reason I don't know. The simple fact is, Texas is one of the best universities (again Top 50) in the country at all levels.......

Brother,
We ask because you bring up hazing activites and in some ways seem to support them.

And this thread is all about hazing.

So it does fit in.

And a word of advise from an older Brother: Never think that once you have had a problem it is all over and done with. It is a warning to never forget it or make light of it.

We have had a lot of discussions on campus about hazing. I agree that hazing has gotten completely out of control. I have a sister who went to Vanderbilt and her friends in other sororities were forced to drink etc. and that is the problem!!!
As for quizzing the pledges (sorry "New Members") on the history of the sorority/fraternity I think it should be allowed, but hey thats one persons opinion....also we are not allowed to do scavengar hunts because they are hazing and that kinda makes me laugh (talk about a broad definition.
Hazing is not nec. though because its just like anything else theres no clear def. so we can't allow any of it...not even requiring our new members to know our chapters history!!!

I agree with you somewhat. I do not advocate any type of hazing that involves physical abuse.....forced drinking....you know, that kind of stuff. Other things...that I have mentioned...as well as people like Shinerbock....I totally accept and think it is useful.

I agree on many levels, but has it occurred to you that hazing, no matter how poorly defined, is illegal?

Just thought I'd mention it.

And in the case of Texas seems to be defined better than many other States and Schools :

http://www.utexas.edu/student/regist.../app/appf.html

http://deanofstudents.utexas.edu/gle...n-Summer05.pdf

So the questions, Brother, are: just what line did you cross? Why? And have you learned anything from this?

we need to make a clearer distintion of pledging and hazing. The pledge class that was the last one to go through when I was there said they were not hazed at all, but compairing their experinces with pledges from other chapters, that our pledging was the hardest.

I'm completely against hazing, but by hazing I don't mean stupid stuff like scavenger hunts. I definitely think the definition of hazing has become too broad.

I'm gonna say that a line may have been crossed...but it was not serious at all. Not even close. The matter was resolved and our chapter didn't suffer by any means.