At some point, most people will get hazed, whether it be for a collegiate group, a team, or just in life. It might not be fair, but that's the way it is.

OK, good start.
Now, go back to Kevins first post and narrow down your anwer to college life....

Well, hazing is stupid. And I mean that with some common sense. For example, taking out pledges for dinner or something or to study is a part of pledging. Making them eat rotten eggs until their sick, or something like that, is disgusting and doesn't build brotherhood or sisterhood. It builds dysfunctional families (in the greek sense). Pledging=work, both mental and physical, but unfortunately, some people take it too far.

Sorry it took so long to respond. I got some calls at work.

I have no idea what anyother GLO's policy is, but anything according to LXA's regulations that makes a New Member Associate do some thing that does not include an Active is against the rules.

This also includes manatory study periods which I do not agree with as there is supposedly one reason people go to college, GRADUATE!

In making a NMA has to learn the National/Local History, that should be part of the induction with tests to see if they know the information. They will carry the knowledge and information to pass it along to new members.

If not, where is the history and lore of the GLO?

Why not just start a club of Tap a keg a day, rent a slum house and have partys?

Why do some ask, because some dumb asses HAZE and it becomes public information because of bodily harm and it affects all of us!:mad:

Well understood and thank you.
We are on same page, same line, same sentence.....:) ;)

Jon, you keep saying things along the lines of "good chapters haze? How come they get closed down then?" which doesn't really make sense. Good chapters get closed, it happens. If you're using who nationals doesn't close as some sort of test for how good a chapter is, you're waaaaay off.

Not sure, but I think some comments got mixed up here.
Someone else, IIRC, made the comment that good chapters haze....I questioned that comment.

And generally, from what I have personally seen and from what I have been told and heard, the chapters that are getting closed down are not chapters that I would come close to calling being good.....at the time they are closed......perhaps in the past, perhaps once again down the road...

Again, just my POV/IMHO based on my life experiences and knowledge..............Including losing my own chapter house....

Jon this is so true because of all of the laws that have come up because of stupid harmful hazing.

If it was not for the news of stupidity, the GLOs would not be of such a crappy reputation and Insurance costs going up.:o

Well I think there are probably a lot of chapters who might have been closed down if they weren't such good chapters...I have no reservations in saying that the majority of large southern university chapters haze in some form (or do something Nationals would disagree with) but they rarely get punished. Usually the university comes down on them, but nationals lets them handle it on their own, at least thats what has happened here...

I guess it depends on the National doesnt it?:(

If that is the case, are they the ones who promagate the situtation?:o

You just brought up a rather interest point or two here that, that to the best of my knowledge, has never been bought up.

For the moment, I will make this a "large" statement/question: If there is a problem with a chapter, does it make a difference ( or differences) in just what/which regulator does the active punishment?
Off the top of my head that would be the school or (I)HO. Of course if police/DA et al get involved, I would think that there would be very little room for questions....

No, I am referring to hazing which is used to build bonds within the pledge class and make them respect the house. I'm not talking about making pledges drink handles of whiskey and eat dog shit. I have said that the "right" kind of hazing is extremely useful. I have also stated repeatedly that I, in no way, condone hazing that is dangerous/life threatening.

Early morning house cleans, study halls, Pledge reviews, member interviews, pledge uniforms, scavenger hunts, pledge trips, etc. etc. Are just fine to me. You can disagree all you want, but these things teach pledges to respect their house, respect the history of the chapter/fraternity, act/dress like gentlemen, respect each other, and build bonds within their class. If you still take all this as illegal and "outdated"...then i'm sorry. Maybe this is why Southern fraternity chapters are among the best in the country, without a doubt.

Well, I live in the real world so my opinions and posts aren't confined to GC stuff. In the real world, requiring study halls of pledges is hazing.

You don't know what he was referring to.

I don't.

If you were saying that you disagree with his OPINION then just say that without all the hoopla and gooblygob.

BOOO to you for letting jon1856 direct you through this thread. :rolleyes:

Exactly. ;)

Brother Mac'
This is the first time, that I can recall, that I have ever seen you make a list like the above.
Interesting list.
Why?
For the most part and in general form, it is what we did.
So, if for some reason, we have missed a major meeting of the minds along the way, I am sorry.
Five Apples,

And what is so bad in politly advising someone new to read a thread from the start?

I agree with you.

I don't think we missed something.....I just think that there are FAR too many people on this site that automatically think something God awful horrible when the word "hazing" gets brought up. I think a list might have been in order to express some positives that can come out of the right kind of "hazing."

It gets fairly old hearing Earp and DA bark about things being illegal/against nationals/raising insurance costs etc. etc.........so I figured I'd try to explain from my point of view.

I just think that pledges should earn the right to be a member. I think that allowing them a free pass to initiation a month after they sign a bid card is horrible and bad for a chapter as a whole (I say this because I know of some chapters that do exactly this.) The "new school" attitute of having New Members, Associate Members, etc. etc. just doesn't fly too well with me.

I understand your point of view. I even agree with substantial parts of it.

Unfortunately, the stuff is still illegal.

Argue for the rest of your life, but if the laws don't change, chapters will still close, insurance rates will still go up and the Greek System will still suffer.

Strong, established chapters aren't going to close over the things that I listed..........

.........can't say i've ever heard of a chapter closing over house cleans, pledge reviews, and making your pledges wear tucked in polos, slacks, and closed toed shoes.

Yeah, well BOOOO to you for quoting that Chicken Noodle Soup song in your sig. What happened to the Tucker Carlson devotion?

Forget this crap. Is simplygreek.com still around? I was royalty there.

NEW?? He's been around since 2004....if he's new, what does that make you???

I'll get back to Tucker Carlson. I wanted to give his heiny a rest for a couple of days. ;)

Simplygreek is around but no one posts there. Stay away from it...it's da debul!!!!

New to the thread-they seem to be thankful that I politly reminded them to read the thread from the start....did you?
Or did you just hit "new post" and not care what you jumped into?;) :D

He said new to the thread. :)

On that note, AlphaFrog, I would like for you to re-read jon's post, draft another reply to him, and tell me what you think of hazing...again. :)

Thank you--I think LOL:) :confused: ;)

wow. the one day I don't wake & bake.

That's not how I read his post...it just struck me as funny that someone who's been here for 3 months is calling someone else new...oh well.

It's been awhile since I've read this thread from the beginning...but I don't think I've ever given my personal thoughts on hazing before. I said my group doesn't haze, but that doesn't necessarily mean that represents my personal view on hazing.

If you would like to know, for the hell of it, I think we've taken the non-hazing WAY too far in the other direction. You can't even do things in good fun anymore. They USED to string the house for Bigs (you take a skein of yarn and run it up and down and all throughout the house, and then the pledge follows the yarn to find out who their big sister is...) but they can't even do THAT anymore, because it could be hazing. Physical harm, alcohol, and eating non-edible things are one thing, but harmless games for fun that are now considered hazing are ridiculous. But, one person's "harmless" is another person's hazing, so we just take all the fun out of it, and no one has a problem.:rolleyes:

I feel ya a little bit on that. During undergrad, I was a new student weekend leader. At the retreat for the incoming freshmen, there was to be a trust walk. When I was an incoming freshman, they blindfolded us and walked us all around as a group to hear cool sound effects and end up at a place to watch a beautiful sunset. The year I was a leader, a bunch of other leaders complained that blindfolding was hazing. They said that the new students should just close their eyes. I laughed out loud in the planning meeting. With the number of leaders, adults, and camp staff at the retreat, I was 100% sure that no one would get hazed or even complain about it. The retreat was at a campground, not in someone's basement. I didn't argue too much because I didn't want anyone thinking I was pro-hazing, but it seemed like we (the leaders) actually were the ones trusting the new students to not open up their eyes and undermine the excitement and beauty of the event. It wasn't the biggest deal, but I didn't know people really thought like that.

He typed "thread."

Oh well, the rest of my post to you was a play on jon's posts to Phrozen. ;)

When I think of hazing I think of mostly lineups (PT). There are also kidnappings, mind games, scavenger hunts, interviews, formal intros, etc. Never are the pledges beat in any way, made to drink excessive alcohol, or anything stupid along those lines.

Let me ask you non-hazing moguls a question. You all agree that learning history, respecting the house, respecting actives, behaving and dressing like a gentleman, etc are all important aspects of pledging. What are the onsequences if your pledges don't learn all the history? Fail tests? Have a lack of respect? What are the consequences for them not doing what you ask?

They aren't initiated. Or they're depledged. If you don't want to learn the history and you fail the test, you probably don't want to be there bad enough.

You are in a sorrority and to my knowledge not an IFC one. I dont think hazing is necessary for sorrorities whatsoever.

Fraternity pledges will not respect you unless there is discipline and reprocusions. They expect a journey, earn the right of passage, etc. Something they can be proud of when they complete it. If it's all study hours and corny history, they will not respect the chapter or its actives. Then you are stuck with slapdick actives that won't work for the chapter. That is my opinion, and I'm sure 99% of fraternity men in prominent southern chapters will agree with me.

We booted their butts out if they didn't learn or didn't pass the tests. We had a couple of pledges get drunk and purposefully damage things in the house. We booted them out.

Thank you, something that made sense and I can agree with on your point!

I have to agree with Tom, LaneSig and BON AlphaFrog on this.....IIRC the main points of pledgeship is for all parties involved to get to know, understand, and trust each other. If something is not working, and is not fixable in anyway, shape or form, you would ge rid of it.

Just like in real world, if someone at work for some reason is just no working out and every attempt is made to fix problem......

While it may fairly old hearing DA and I , it is still to true and has been proven to many times.

If you check, DTD and LXA have either suspended, sanctioned Chapters of many sizes. You may also see that some have been closed.

A lot would depend on The Fraterity who has nerve enough to close a very strong and violating Chapter.

Sure, money from Alums means a lot, but, does the reputation of the Fraternity mean more. There is the internet, phones etc.

I don't see why you should have to earn anything other than a diploma and a decent job. Kidnappings? Drinking mystery concoctions? Sounds like a five year old's dream-come-true for passage into his special tree house. I thought Greeks were supposed to be men and women, not children.

Can you imagine being hazed at the office? "Hey Johnson, if you want health insurance, you're going to have to EARN it. So do 500 jumping jacks in the rain and drink this entire bottle of SoCo! Then maybe we'll talk about bringing you on full time."