Tom, I don't think Shiner, nor myself were tryinig to portray an attitude that came across like our chapters are better than our national organization as a whole. There are alot of things that nationals is trying to do that I don't like. I think the TG Initiative, much like the Balanced Man program is ruining chapters. I think the fact that so many good Southern chapters don't adhere to this nonsense has helped them maintain their selectiveness/exclusiveness. I tend to think that it is not a bad thing for a chapter to try to adhere to their longstanding tradition rather than try to follow this new trend of PC bulls*it.

Obviously I agree. I think something that plays into the differences we're seeing here is that we (in the south) often view joining a fraternity as a rite of passage, a traditional part of growing up. Thus, you do gain a lot during pledgeship, but you also usually enter into the fraternity with the core beliefs of the organization already instilled. The people who eventually join fraternities here come from families who take pride in their southern heritage, and place great value on faith, family, loyalty to country, etc...I think in other places fraternities act as a place where a wide array of people can get together and come to accept certain core values. In southern greek life, we seek out those who believe how we do and come from similar backgrounds as us. We have unending loyalty to our campus and our local chapter, and generally help our national org as well. But the problem arises when people from other chapters in the organization are fundamentally different than us. Sure, if they need a place to stay, help with rush, etc, we'd be glad to pitch in...but for example, a person from another chapter was running for public office in a nearby state, and asked at one point if I would bring our pledge class up to help with the campaign. As the pledge trainer, I had to decide, and as a conservative group with Christian values, eventually decided to respectfully decline. The individual was a democrat, and after examining his positions on issues and talking with brothers and pledges, we decided that we could not in good conscious aid the campaign to empower someone who fundamentally disagreed with us.

"Shin"
Sorry I am a bit late to this party, some of us do work a living.:( (O, for the.......:) )
Even though I really do/did not have the time, I did something that I never have done on any type of a list. I read all of your posting; some of which are older than my sign in date.

We do not know each other, most likly will never met so we (all) know each other here alone.

I found some posting of yours enjoyable, interesting, well thought out and that I could agree with.

There are some that I will not, can not ever agree with. Why? In some cases we may look at the same thing and just based on life experience, teachings, training, et al we see it differently. Will that change? Not here, not now. Down the road perhaps; tis all about life.

We are all Family here, Brothers and Sisters. Family do have diagreements but let us not have a fight that turns this board into something that it should never be.

"Break a leg" in Law School.
As friends of mine say: "See you on the fields".
Jon-who remembers, and honors, the Battle of Resaca.

Thanks, I appreciate that. Now, regarding the War of Northern Aggression, we may need to start a new thread...

LOL:)
Sir, while I have met, among others, Mr Lincoln, Adm Porter, Gen Custer, Gen. Grant as well as HRH's Official Observer, I also have met Gen. Lee and Gen. Stuart, and Gen. Hood. As well as many of the background people of "Gettysburg".

And Sigma Alpha Epilon is a true Southern Fraternity.
I am remembering, and giving honor to, one of our chapters.....

Just don't call it the war between the states :)

I hate when people say it wasn't a civil war, Virginia was ripped in half :(

Still not whole...

Does anyone else find the term "Civil War" a really strange contridiction of terms.

How can any war be "civil?"

Thank you Axl Rose. LOL.

Did he say that? Not being a fan -- actually never having heard him perform -- I wasn't aware of that.

I saw on some news website that he was arrested in London (I think) recently for biting someone.

MSN can be rather helpful:
civil

civ·il [ sívv'l ]

adjective Definition: 1. polite: polite, but in a way that is cold and formal

2. relating to citizens: relating to what happens within a state or between different citizens or groups of citizens
http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/dictionary/bullet.gif</IMG>http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifcivil war
Civ·il War

noun Definition: 1. 19C U.S. war: the civil war fought in the United States from 1861 to 1865 between the North and the slave-owning states of the South

2. 17C English war: the civil war fought in England between the Royalist supporters of Charles I and the Parliamentarians led by Oliver Cromwell, between 1642 and 1648civ·il war (plural civ·il wars)

noun Definition: war within country: a war between opposing groups within a country

I understand the definition. I still think it's an ironic use of words.

I do agree with you.
civ·il [ sívv'l ]

adjective Definition: 1. polite: polite, but in a way that is cold and formal

2. relating to citizens: relating to what happens within a state or between different citizens or groups of citizens
http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/dictionary/bullet.gif</IMG>http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gifcivil war

If You Know DeltaAlum Like I Know DeltaAlum, You would understand!

When one has insight as We get info it is so sad and sickening.

Good reconeing on Civil.

Is there any thing Civil anymore?:confused:

DA, Guns 'n' Roses had a song called "Civil War" and at the end Axl goes "What's so civil about war, anyway?" Then again, that was back when he was cool and hadn't completely flipped out.

I've been dreaming of the time when
The English are sick to death of Labour and Tories
And spit upon the name Oliver Cromwell
And denounce this royal line that still salutes him
And will salute him
Forever

Only Morrissey can rock out and make it a history lesson at the same time.

ktsnake didn't mention this but one of our prominent chapters was taken down by national.

Our University of Kansas chapter was our historic first western expansion and they got busted by Sigma Nu National for hazing.

Sigma Nu takes hazing extremely seriously (we were founded against hazing that was going on at Virginia Military Institute).

Even if Sigma Nu didn't want to suspend a large chapter like Ole Miss they'd do what they did to my chapter in the mid 90s, they'd just interview every active and pledge and then expel everybody who was involved in hazing and re-organize.

Yes, I remember that as the second main offense at Kansas Un. LXA House Was just across the Circle from there.

I was sadden to hear of this closing and more so now knowing it was for The Correct reasons.

It has come to a choice of closing Chapters no matter waht for RM and other Non compliant Rules.

Mu Chaqpter of LXA at the Un. Of Cal. was closed and it was one of the first Chapters of LXA and the First on the West Coast.

It does happen. Let it be a warning and an awakening for all of us.

It used to be just Fraternitys but now, it seems som Sororitys are being affected.

Hazing & Nationals
 

From personal knowledge and experience, SAE National takes matters very seriously.

GOOD as We all should!:o

We lost a few at the last G A:(

But it boils down to dont do it!

Tom,

I'm just wondering, when you pledged many many years ago did you get hazed? Did you haze pledges when you were an active? Please be honest.

When I "Pledged" a Fraternity of which I did not become a member of, the only hazing was pledge clean up on the common floor and line ups.

When I started a local, there was no hazing except what I mentioned abouve.

Of course that was then and this is now.

Oh, if making "Pledges" do study time, we did that, but of course that is hazing now. We also required Actives to spend time studying as We were there to make grades and graduate.

That is honest as I can be and am proud of the fact!:) We asked Men to join us and felt an obligation to them to get them active and be frutful memebers.

But as You said, that was a long time ago!:(

Delta Gamma's approach post-summer conference..
 

Delta Gamma, at it's national convention this summer, did an extremely effective OPEN discussion on hazing from the collegian perspective this summer -- and provided amnesty for any chapter who wanted to arrest the problem before August 1. They invited all chapters to come forward with honest requests for assistance.

We really put our money where our mouth is, in terms of programming support and elimination of a problem kept secret in women's groups.

So you guys did cleanups/lineups/study hours. Sound like what 99% of the "hazing" chapters do today. How can you speak out against the stuff, if you did it yourself? It must of had a purpose if you chose to do it?

We did all of it. I look back upon it fondly.

I look back at doing all this stuff ("hazing") when I pledged, and sure, I thought it sucked at the time but those were some of the best times of my college career. I would do it all again in a heartbeat.

Pledgeship is the best thing you never want to do again.

Bull. I know several top SAE chapters that haze like crazy and are not shut down. MIT is not a top chapter by any means.

If MIT is a top chapter for any fraternity, wow.

MIT shut down SAE for serving alcohol to a female minor from a different college. They had two beautiful, historic townhouses in the Back Bay that were 2 doors down from one another. I always wondered about the occupants of the privately owned home that was between them.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1999/sae2.html

Thanks you for doing the research on this.
I do have to wonder what "At the time, SAE was supposed to be alcohol-free as a the result of earlier violations." where.

I know that use of alcohol, around pledges, was part of the hazing charges ( among others ) against my chapter.

Study hours are not hazing. Study---the point of college

Elephant;
I will be more than happy to put you into direct contact with The Brother in charge of Risk Management. Saw him at a meeting a month or two ago and exchange regular e-mails. All I will say...well maybe I can not say what is going on........

Perhaps MIT was not a perfect example for SAE but I did post others awhile ago for other GLO. Do not have time to find every single chapter that has been closed but I am willing to bet that is is far more than you and I both know of.

Elephant was referring to huge Prominent, probobly Southern, chapters of SAE......that haze and really do whatever they want and don't ever get touched......which is nice.

When they start cracking down on places like SAE Alabama.......then that "cracking down" argument could maybe be used.

study hours and learning information is NOT hazing.

house cleans ups in my opinion are not hazing either

line ups on the other hand TOTALLY sound like hazing.

When I think of what is hazing and what is not I ask "is this actually beneficial to the chapter at large?"

If the answer is yes it's probably not hazing. If the answer is no then it is most definitely hazing.

Alright then. What are the benefits of lineups? They test the knowledge of the pledges, make them depend on each other, make them responsible for each other.

What is the benefit of a road trip (in this case, dropping them somewhere and making them accomplish something, or get back to the fraternity house)? Once again, requires the pledges to overcome difficulty and personal disagreements in order to achieve a common goal.

Basically ALL hazing has a point. The only hazing I really think is stupid, is that which recklessly endangers (hitting them, making them take risks that really are dangerous, exposing them to the elements for extended periods...). All the other stuff has a point behind it.

My brother was a MIT SAE in the late 80s/early 90s and said that his chapter's problems were always alcohol-related (serving minors) issues and never hazing. The problem was that the chapter was already in trouble for committing similar infractions in the past. Despite knowing the consequences, they continued to do so until they were shut down.

A freshman boy from a different MIT fraternity had died only a couple of years before that from alcohol poisoning and the university was finally taking more of an in loco parentis role in regards to student life.

What about the "crack down" on the University of Texas chapter? Suspended through Fall 2005 and on probation until this fall for hazing. Or does UT not count as a prominent chapter?

Eh, nothing really happened to be completely honest. That website isn't much of a reliable source.

I believe my sorority has done an agressive campaign to stop hazing from stiff penalties to sanctions and to the way we bring in new members. We have zero tolerance for hazing and this is communicated through our sorority to undergraduates and graduates. I don't see the sense of continuing an outdated practice just for tradition's sake.

We don't continue them for "tradition's sake." We continue them because they work.

So you will continue to risk expulsion from campus and the university and possible lawsuits and felony charges in the name of tradition!

All while people like you will continuously throw out things like lawsuits and breaking the law.

The majority of banned hazing isn't beating pledges. It includes things like lineups, making them dress well, football practice, cleaning, activities which build brotherhood and teamwork...

Those things usually don't lead to lawsuits or felonies.