Actually it would strongly hurt Greek life. My father came back from Korea (not a draftee), and went to school. There were several fraternities after him, and they told him that they would help him be a man.

After a couple years of living overseas, working and being on his own, he didn't need help in that regard. Many other men seemed to have the same idea. The 60s and 70s were the dark era in Greek life, remember?

Though there was also a social awakening that deemed Greek life as part of the establishment, and thus bad. These men that I'm talking about however, some were the type that liked establishment.

The 60's and 70's were the dark era because people didn't want to be part of something that they thought was "establishment", not because men came back from the service and didn't want to join. If you came back from the service and went onto a college campus in that time period, whether you were in Vietnam or elsewhere, I'm sure you had enough issues and questions thrown at you by your fellow students without joining a fraternity on top of it.

Did you not read the last paragraph of my post?

I'll stand by my comments. I was there in the mid to late 60's. I suppose your dad and I had different experiences.

The right way, the wrong way and the military way...

I could not get the "gist" of the comments, but I do think that military skills do translate to 'everyday skills" if focused appropriately, that is the benefit for going back to civilian life after the military... The only exception to this rule are those in combat... How does one explain defusing an IED to folks?

Anyhow, most of the officers I knew that retired got some extremely cushy CEO jobs running the show... Like Rear Admirals to Generals... They like, can run the entire corporation... And corporations--namely those like Halliburton, or other defense department corporate contractors, love these officers...

And if you are a military healthcare professional... Whoa...

And if you are a pilot and have been in combat, the commercial airlines will hook you up on general principle...

So, from my perspective, I've seen some translation... But those are for officers... Not for enlisted...

As far as compulsory service in the military or community service, my state has manditory community service in order to graduate from high school. ~50 hours. Kids do all kinds of stuff to graduate. I think it's great and the programs could be a tad more focused, but overall, young people need to know that not everyone grew up in single-family dwellings in the suburbs or that some people just fail and living life and need help, sometimes... Gives folks a reality check every now and then...

I think that many (maybe most) who have not served in the armed forces get their impressions of the military from movies and TV.

The officers (managers, as I said above somewhere) run into the same problems and need and develop the same skill sets as managers in any level of business. With pun only slightly intended, running a company is like running a company. There is paperwork, there are budgets, personnel (HR) issues, the necessity of internal and external communications, planning, reports, meetings, and many other of the same things involved. Then, of course, there is the necessity of leadership. The bigger the military organization, the more experience and the bigger the company or corporation you may have the opportunity to run.

Have you ever noticed that politicians (there are exceptions, obviously), from dog catcher to President list their military service at the top of their political resumes?

Where is this true? Have you been smoking the wacky tobaccy?

Absolutely not.

Being in the military currently, I see and live the value of a 100% all-volunteer force. You get better men and women, they are smarter, they train better, they work better, they function better.

What do we do if not enough of them volunteer though? What if we get into a situation where we need 200,000 more soldiers?

As far as Greek Life taking a hit, in my scenario, everybody would do something else before starting college, so everybody would be starting at age 20. Colleges, Universities and Greek Life would all take a hit for two years while it was being implemented, until the whole freshman class was at least 20. I think we'd be ok if we knew it was short term!

I do think the logistics of it would be so very complicated to implement and I don't really see it ever happening. But, I still think it's a good concept.

Someone earlier said that the people supporting it were all old enough to not have to do it. Some of us though, have kids who would have to do it. I'd be ok with my child living a little real life between college and high school. I would rather have them do that, figure out who they are, what they want out of life than to have them rattle around at a college for 5 or 6 years because they couldn't decide on a major. Being in college was like being in some alternate world reality with very little responsibility compared to what comes later. I just think getting a glimpse of the real world is a good idea, before you decide what you want to do in it.

That has long been the argument for an all volunteer military. The question is whether the size force we need can be recruited -- particularly in times of war.

If not enough people volunteer, it's time to reevaluate how the troops we do have are being used. I'd hope that would happen long before we need 200,000 more. If it looks like we're going to be short, try to "budget" what we do have.

While this sounds good, I don't think it's possible. It's an unfriendly world out there, and people who don't like us aren't likely to go along with our plans of how to budget and schedule our military assets.

Yes. However, you apparently didn't read mine...I said that even if these men had been in the "establishment" army, they came back to a vastly different America in general and campus in particular. Whether you were drafted or enlisted.

LOLLERSKATES!

?

I'm sorry you got that experience, but for some of us, college included working to pay tuition (including some nights and weekends), and living in the "real world." I think we need to be a little careful in our generalizations.

I don't see a draft being reinstated, but if it were, I would certainly go if drafted (even after hearing my dad's sometimes graphic stories from his experience in Vietnam). By that point I'll hopefully be an attorney, so they'd probably have some sort of position in mind for me.

Yeah, infantry. The way I always understood the draft, is that most people get the boots on the ground, rifle in hand jobs.

Good point, I've heard that quite a bit.

I'm not terribly worried about this country starting to worry about what others think of its military plans.

I have always been living in the "real world". I've been a working and contributing member of society since I was 13. I don't know what world the rest of you grew up in, but mine was pretty damn real. No one in my family has had a sheltered life. We've all worked extremely hard to get to where we are. I really hate the generalization that people who go from HS straight into uni aren't living life, or are sheltered, or aren't part of the "real world". Real world includes study, it includes the university experience, which is often combined with a healthy dose of work and sacrifice on the individual's part. Not every kid at university is a trust fund baby.

This is pretty much nonsense, Delt - no matter what occurs, there is still a 'budgeting' process that can make the most efficient use of resources . . . and no matter how 'unfriendly' the world may be, a constant updating of this budgeting will still produce the most efficient method.

OK, fine. What happens if the North Koreans decide to cross the DMZ? Do we ask them to wait until we increase our "budget?" When that happens, efficiency and budget go out the window.

We can't staff the present conflict(s) we're in without putting a huge strain on the Reserves and National Guard. From a purely money "budget," the administration doesn't even include it in the Federal fiscal budget, but has spent tens of billions of dollars in special funding.

It took months to build up forces for Desert Storm.

I'm not a Hawk by any means, but there are some situations that won't wait.

We used to staff our military with the idea of being able to react to two separate major conflicts in different parts of the glove. With the cutbacks we've put in place, we're hard pressed to handle one -- assuming we can agree that Iraq and Afghanistan are pretty much the same place.

Sorry if you think that nonsense. It seems more like reality to me.

Clearly, we can't "budget" for every contingency but must try to be as efficient as possible, on the other hand, we have to be able to react quickly with some amount of force without depleting other missions.

That's the problem. What in the hell are we doing? I am by no means an expert on anything military, but isn't it pretty much common sense that we shouldn't be stretched as thin as we are right now? Doesn't the current state of the world suggest that we shouldn't be all over the place like we are -- so when something DOES happen, we'll be more likely to have the resources to deal with it?

That's the operative question.

I'm not an expert on anything -- except maybe TV Production -- but I think there has to be some kind of ballance between being the world's policeman and isolationism. I don't know how either of those can work for a "Superpower." I also have no clue as to how to find that mid-point.

There must be a middle ground, but in that area there has to be flexibility to meet an unexpected crisis -- which is why I don't think there is really a way to totally "budget" our assets.

As a former boss used to say, "You can't build a church for Easter Sunday." On the other hand, you can't be completely without some kind of cushion.

I didn't say that I didn't work.I started working when I was 13 years old. I worked two jobs through most of my college years and held an academic scholarship which required at least a 3.50 to keep.

My rent was cheap, I paid 1/3 of the utilities, the jobs I worked didn't have the level of stress or responsibility that my "grown-up" jobs have had. The amount of responsibility in taking care of your own tuition and paying for college housing is not anywhere near the level of responsibility of managing employees, working in your career, raising kids, paying the mortgage, etc. There's no comparison, seriously. Nobody else was depending on me to put food on the table or keep a roof over their heads. I didn't have to do laundry for a bunch of other people, clean up other people's messes, shop for their clothes, etc. In comparison to my current level of responsibilities, it was no big deal.

Except for the 'kids' part, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

-RC
--So other than 'raising kids', the responsibility of working and paying tuition doesn't hold a candle to the responsibility of . . . working . . . and paying bills . . . nicely done

I do not have a Link. But Feel Free to find it as I will not do it for You!

It is in Child Abuse Laws.

You Do, You Get Time. Over protective was used as a Do not Hurt THe Kids.:mad:

Oh, Welcome to The Real World!

The Fed. Govt. cut over many Years the Military Budget saying the The Researves and National Guard will be the fill ins.

Well, Now They are and Our Civilian Soldiers are many who are losing their lives. Because of the cut backs which are going on today is the reason.

Our Weekend Worriers who may be call up "In A Time Of National Emerencys" are Now over In War Zones. They are not just weekend any more are they?

National Emergencys are of Local Importance such as Kristina and Helping Our Home People.

It is the Same GOVt. that Cut The Coast Guard Budget which now seems to be very Important for Home Land Security!

It is the same Govt. that Cut INS Budgets before OOPs Illegal Aliens.

Maybe that will answer Your ???s!:rolleyes:

One of my undergraduates that was taking over in my Sorority was in the reserves before the Iraq War was started... The Navy was paying her way to go to college. She heard all the stories about NPHC membership intake and thought it would not be any worse than boot-camp, then discovered it was a total different idea that she just loved when she became one of my sorors. She literally had tears in her eyes after her final initiation because she had not been surrounded by that much "love"...

So, no, I don't think military service conflicts with joining a greek organization unless folks make it out to be...

I dunno, the retired Rear Admiral I knew became the CEO of USAA a few years back...

But yeah, from dog catcher to US President, they do put on their military service at the top of their resume, as they should...

And yeah, there may be training needed for business skills, but one gets them over time... I guess from some "corporate think tanks", I guess they say, at least they know where the CEO will stand when there is a "sinking ship..." :rolleyes:

And then again, Ollie North didn't "biatch out" when he up in front of congress during the Iran-Contra affair...

With the retired military on TV: And why are all the retired military mostly on the Fox News Channel??? That's one thing I cannot figure out... Like Lt. Col. Bonaventure et al. And he looks young... With the exception of those that are hating on Rummy right now, who else is on TV--besides Ollie?

That's fine - I suppose teaching preschool, running a babysitting business, and worrying whether I would be making enough for tuition wasn't stressful at all.

Perhaps we shouldn't judge how much "responsibility" others have had.

It's not just two, but three.

I believe that, 20 years after college graduation, most will look back on those years as the most fun years of their adult lives. I also believe that most would rate their level of responsibility in their post-university jobs as higher than that of the jobs they held while in school. There are other life responsibilities that don't come up until later also. More people depend on you in a variety of different ways. You're taking care of your parents, instead of the reverse. You frequently have responsibilities to a spouse, to children, or other dependents. Your financial responsibilities grow exponentially. Your responsibilities within your household increase (upkeep of a house vs. a student apartment, etc).

Whether you experience more "stress" or not is a whole different discussion and irrelevant to this thread. Stress and responsibility don't necessarily go hand in hand.

You really seem to be taking this as a personal attack and it isn't, so I'm not sure why you're taking it that way. In the type of system I've spelled out, by babysitting and teaching pre-school, you would have fulfilled the requirements. You just would have served in that type of capacity for two years before beginning college, while earning money, and had a "GI Bill" type deal to help you with college after that.

I cannot begin to imagine how if, as you say, the college years are the most fun years of many people's lives and that often there are fewer responsibilities than exist later in life, that is a bad thing.

I think that many don't realize it at the time and they might appreciate it more if they did some of the other stuff first, that's all.

Implementing it would be a total nightmare and there is no funding for such a program, so it's a moot point anyway. I just think it would be good for the country and the individuals who experienced it.

If given a choice between a military draft for everybody or a choice between a draft or community service for all, I'd support the latter, but not the former.

I'll admit I'm probably taking this too personally, and taking too much of my own life experience into this (admittedly a poor tactic for discussion)...I just think you're painting things with an awfully broad brush. I'm married, house-hunting, have bills and financial obligations, and have a challenging job, and I still believe I had quite a bit of responsibility in college. If I ever end up having kids, maybe that will change that, but I don't think I'll ever look back at college as a responsibility-free zone.

It's not only you who has said it, and I probably shouldn't direct my responses only to you, but I just get annoyed by the whole "When you get older, you'll realize real responsibility" argument.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I just felt the need to respond with mine.

And, there is probably some of the "good ole days" syndrome working on my part too. I think we look back and remember mainly the good, but it seemed stressful at the time. I definitely remember feeling totally freaked that dues might go up $10 a month (how would I come up with that????) and feeling like there was no way I could be ready for those 3 tests AND get that paper done all in one week when I was scheduled for 30 hours between my jobs.

It felt as stressful in college as it does now, I'm sure. Retrospectively, it seems like the stakes are much higher now, with a dying parent, kids to take care of, a much more stressful and busy job, and a WAY higher mortgage payment. My mortgage increase this year (due to an ARM) is what I used to pay for my whole rent in college!

I think the biggest group that the compulsory service idea would benefit are those who don't go to college. There is a sub group of collegians that it would apply to also... the ones who flunk out because they didn't learn how to balance the good times with the responsibility. As GLO members, we learned that well. The folks who would benefit most aren't likely to be reading this board.

Noted, and now, I hope you will allow me to share my opinions without branding them as nonsense as someone -- not you -- did earlier in this thread.

One of the buzzwords in hiring or promoting management level people for the past few years has been "progressive responsibility." I think that means that as you gain experience, perhaps manage more people, bigger projects or a bigger budget, you also gain the skills and understanding to keep on progressing into more and bigger responsibilities.

In most businesses and the military -- which is part of what this thread talked about earlier -- more responsibility comes with age and experience.

Sorry, but how many thirty year old Fortune 500 CEO's do you know of? There may be a couple, but I can't name them.

That's not to say that older people are smarter. Some people are naturally more gifted than others. Brother John Elway wasn't a Hall of Fame Quarterback when he graduated from Stanford, though -- although the basic skills were there to hone. Nor could Colin Powell have understood how to be Chairman of the Joint Chiefs when he graduated from West Point. (I think he went to USMA -- if not, change "West Point" to "college").

In school, you learn theory and basics. In business you learn how things really work. Isn't that why there are internships -- to learn how to turn theories into reality?

To rankle at the suggestion that greater responsibility comes with age and experience would assume that a person pretty knows all there is to know and is ready to tackle anything life or business has to offer coming out of school.

I just can't agree with that. I think it works that way in our personal lives as well.

Of course many of us have/had responsibility (and stress) early in life, but most of us continue to gain knowledge, experience and responsibility for many years.

Progressive responsibility means nothing more than a structured corporate environment where you hold your lip 99% of the time, others take credit for your work, and there is a level of bureacracy surpassed only in government halls in India.

The only thing I've come to accept is the phrase "Grind, Mind, Find". First you grind. You work your butt off. Then you mind. You start to think about processes and coming up with new ones. And then you find. You start to bring in business. The mind is difficult to do without knowing the business but it doesn't take decades to learn. The find is the only thing I do think age helps in because I can't work the magic of someone above me who dines with some CEO and his wife every Friday and then golfs with that same client all the time. It's near impossible.

And I'd love to know how interns learn reality. In 99% of the cases I know interns do nothing. There is no reality there and that dream they live is either a great one or a nightmare.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's not black and white. As much as age helps with experience, age also gets a free ride at youth's expense.

-Rudey
--Quick, write that line down...it belongs in a movie script.

I like the line. Nothing is totally black and white, and the age piece is cute. I'd just say there are a lot of folks who have spent a fair amount of their careers bringing along younger ones.

In most of the companies I'm aware of, holding your lip is a good way to be totally overlooked. Being the loudest and most obnoxious at the table doesn't work too well either. An internship is what you make of it.

Two thoughts about internships. First, I hope my doctor learned something during his internship. Second, in the the TV stations I've worked for, the bright, hard working interns are the ones who get the jobs upon graduation. That's assuming, of course, that there is a position open. An internship certainly isn't a guarantee.