I realize that. I was posting more out of concern for how what you first posted might be construed, rather than what I understood you to be saying as such. I have a little more thought on the matter, but rather than highjack this thread anymore (other than what's below), I've PM'd you.
Except that it's not, Tom. To say it is shows disrespect for sincerely-held religious beliefs by glossing over distinctive and differing beliefs rather than by actually trying to understand them. It amounts to ignorance and disrespect masquarading as tolerance and acceptance.

Well, he's kinda right. The idea is the same sure, and in Christianity and Judaism, God, Yahweh, is the same. However, for example, Allah and God (Christian) may seem to be as "Supreme Beings" but further examination would lead to the conclusion that they obviously have different characteristics and personalities (referring to God's personality is kinda weird). I think it is Christians who claim the difference, as Muslims have told me that we worship the same God. However, from my religious perspective, Muslims mistakenly attributed their false religious beliefs on to God, and therefore worship what would be a non existant version of my God. For the record, I'm not trashing Muslims, but I had to say that to display how they differentiate for me and probably some other Christians who feel simililarly.

Except that Christians claim that Jesus is YHWH -- something Jews and Muslims would catagorically deny and perhaps even consider blasphemous.

Just as one example.

Are you sure? I'm a Baptist, and one time consistant church attender, and I was always under the impression that Yahweh was God the Father. I have always understood that Jews and us have different views on it, that it is not to be spoken aloud by Jewish people, but I've never heard that Christians consider Yahweh to be Jesus.

Quite sure. Reread the Gospel of John and see just how many times Jesus equates to himself the title "I Am," which is what YHWH means. As just one example, in John 8:58, Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I am. (It's much clearer in the Greek that he is intentionaly using the "I Am" appellation, but it still comes through in English.)

In Judaism, YHWH is the name of God, which as you said should not be spoken. And in Christianity, God the Father = YHWH, God the Son = YHWH, God the Spirit =YHWH, because even though Father, Son and Spirit are three, they are also one.

Then explain to me so I am not so ignorant!:)

The many names used by different Religions still refer to what? A Supreme Being. Am I correct there?

BetaRose,

no, I am not narrow Minded as You may think or profess.:rolleyes: I am not trying to force any beleifs of Mine on anyone.:rolleyes:


kddani quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Tom Earp
Maybe people should figure out, that no Matter what The Supreme Being is called, it is the same thing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No it is not. That's the point. It can be called by the same name depending on the translation, but it is NOT THE SAME.

----------------------------------------

Ah, maybe in The Overall Eye of someone who thinks in Broarder Circles of Life than some do with narrowier minds?

Isnt that why there is so many Situations and Deaths because of Morons who are narrow minded? Say Iraq?

If that is the case, then in Your I think wording (?), I should not like Blacks, Asians, Roman Catholics, Lutherns, Jewish, Musilums or any others?

Paleeze.:rolleyes: :confused:

You just had to put that Iraq comment in didn't you.

Yes I did and relates to small minded people who want to control others.:(

I didn't realize this wasa big deal. my chapter has 4 or 5 athiests/agnostics - including myself.

See, that's a bit misleading, I think you meant that you don't want militant atheists in your org, since you now have stated that you don't really care about the "under G**" debate. You made it sound like that was one of the lines of decision, yes or no. I can understand not wanting someone around who protests every use or mention of religion.

I personally wouldn't want anybody who isn't accepting of others' beliefs and militant about theirs in my org. whether they be militant atheist or militant Christian.

I know people who I personally don't agree with their choice of religion or lack there of, but the bottom line is that it is just that: their choice. As long as they are respecting others faiths while following theirs, and meet all other membership requirements, I feel they should be welcome.

Every branch of Christianity probably interprets the Trinity in a slightly different (possibly very different) way. Some don't believe in a trinitarian God at all. Most people would still say they are still all Christian. The above is your interpretation, but it's not the only one.

/end hijack

ease up
 

In this day and age we can spend all our lives defining our terms
and through the inadequacy of language itself concurrence is not
always found. My PhD gave me more questions, not answers.
Why don't we kinda keep our personal religious thoughts to us
ourselves and go to chapter meeting with the idea of something
good, caring, positive, bringing us all together...
Alfred McClung Lee, the author of "Fraternities without Brotherhood" was a pissed off writer who made a splash back
then and finally disappeared. John Robson, once a poobah with
the Bantas, a delightful Sig Ep, wrote a book on Fraternity, and
he authored a Sig Ep pledge manual. Not too many treatises on
fraternities written for several reasons, one satisfaction, two a
certain disdain for anything fraternal by certain professors. I almost had to hide my membership in grad school, but I could whip 'em all, outdrink most, outdance all, and was infinitely ahead
of 'em socially. But, we all tried to get along. There is yet a built
in resistance in the professorial ranks, but, then, how many do you find who are of the hail-fellow-well-met or extroverted kind?
Cooperation is hard to come by, and even living with a spouse is
a task at times. My fraternal experiences recalled today are of the selective sort, and the unpleasant ones repressed.
There have been a goodly number of short articles on Greek life
but how many in your chapter are eager to write anything? That
is for the academician, and he is often not the gregarious kind. I
found the poorest teachers, by far, in grad schools...
So, at my three score and ten, I say my fraternity experiences were the best...and I intend to value them yet....

GOD
 

Why not incorporate your concept of GOD into your own personal
interpretation? It is hard to define and you all have come up with
several, each acceptable, definitions.
As a Mason, I kinda like "The Supreme Architect of the Universe."
Isn't that a neat explanation? When I joined the Elks 45 years
ago I was asked, point blank, "Do you believe in God?" Well, I
really thought that was kind of a stupid unqualified question,
but I answered 'yes' and figured that in the whole scheme of
things we were of like purpose, and without considerable time
spent to explain who "God" with the various offshoots and the
hard-to-define construct of it all...that a simple "yes" would do,
I am still an agnostic, and one who feels atheism is not a defensible position. But, these are my thoughts and I have nary
a thing better to offer you.
All these rituals are intended to be lofty, and so mote they be!

The only requirement in my sorority is that everyone be respectful of everyone else's views. Since the organization is based on diversity, we actively recruit women of many religious (and anti-religious) backgrounds. The sorority experience, in addition to being a beautiful bonding experience, is also, in our view, meant to be a part of the larger university educational experience. To that end, we aim to attempt to promote as diverse a sisterhood as possible, so that (1) we don't turn into a "cookie-cutter" sorority, as many others inadvertently do, and (2) so that our members are prepared to deal with others who may not be anything at all like themselves once they are out in the "real world." It has worked out well for us, and it never ceases to surprise me how well people of different races, ethnicities, religions, sexual orientations, majors, and personalities can get along in close quarters.

Thanks :)

I see that some have addressed this already, but let me provide an example... if you say that Allah and God (Christian) is the same person would you go into a Baptist, Catholic, COGIC church, etc and start a prayer with "giving honor to Allah" or "thank you Allah"... I pray that you wouldn't because that would be offensive, just as I would not go into a Mosque and start thanking Jesus or asking for guidance from the Holy Spirit/Ghost(both parts of the Holy Trinity). I think we say its the same out of PCness but let's be real and admit to ourselves that if someone came to our church with references (in worship) to the other names for the deity we would be upset

Really?

So, is Allah, God, Budda OR Whom Ever who People Believe in as The Supreme Being Different?

OKAY, Let us say there is Not any kind of Supreme Being, but only Aliens from another Planet that built the many things on This Little Planet We call Earth.

This Seems to be the Problem isnt it!

My Named Supreme Being is the Correct Supreme Being!

So, Get over it.:confused:


______________________________________________

So what is the answer?

Which Named Deity is The Very, Very Best?:rolleyes:

I think I can see where Tom is coming from. I don't think it's overly PC to think that all monotheistic religions do worship the same god. I mean, otherwise, it would mean that either there are multiple Gods or that some religion's god doesn't exist.

I'm sure he's not saying that Muslims worship Jesus, but rather that, to the extent that Muslims and Christians both believe "there is no god but God" / "la ilaha il-allah" (the Arabic phrase that means the same thing), the god of Christianity and the god of Islam must be the same one, otherwise either there are multiple gods or one of us is just dead wrong.

Every Muslim that I know claims to worship the same god that I (as a Christian) do, only they don't see the nature of God the same way that a Christian would (as in, Trinitarian). That is not to say that Christianity and Islam are the same religion, or even particularly similar (although I would argue that they are actually more similar than most people think). I just mean to say that if Muslims and Christians both believe that there is only one god, then the god of both religions logically *must* be the same one. At least that's how I see it, and I think that's what Tom is saying, too (correct me if I'm wrong, please, Tom).

There are some greek organizations whose ideals are very religous based regardless of the religion. Even some of them have a variety of religious backgrounds in their membership. Some are prdominantly jewish while others are christian. And contrary to many's understanding, the predominantly christian groups have quite a few Catholics because Catholicism is a christian religion. Then there are those who don't consider religious affiliation at all and good for them since this country was founded on religous freedom. For those who do have a religious aspect to them, society should honor them as they do religious freedom.

As far as it being a problem,

I started my own interest group for a non-sectarian fraternity before ever actually rushing because I did the research and realized that most organizations had religious references. Being an atheist, the whole idea made me uncomfortable.

I eventually left the group to rush Phi Sig. During the year I presided over the interest group, I had gotten to know many Greeks. In my conversations I was told by some other "non-believers" that it wasn't so much that you were professing a belief/allegiance to God, but that you were professing a belief/allegiance to the respect of the founder's beliefs, and the basic principles that come from those beliefs.

Indeed, I happen to believe in a sort of karma. I think that doing well toward others makes them more inclined to 'pay it forward' and I strongly believe in the Golden Rule. In speaking to some, just the fact that I believe -something- that kinda sorta relates to a 'higher power', that is good enough for any of their organizations. Even large and old organizations that much of this religious stuff in rituals is "based on."

Remember though, the subject here is on atheists/agnostics/etc in Greek organizations, not on who in the thread has the best and most correct beliefs.

I was not refering to who had the best and most correct beliefs. I was referring to tolerance by all of us for each other. I know there are some groups that have very strong beliefs in one direction or another and everyone would not be confortable in all of the Greek organizations, but I also believe there is a place for all who are interested, somewhere in the Greek system where they would feel comfortable.

Absolutely Correct. Thank You for putting My thoughts in a much better wording.:)

IMHO I don't see how an atheist would feel comfortable in my organization as we are Christian based-we have prayer in just about all of our functions. I did know a Soror who was Muslim who was initiated with me but she soon went inactive for whatever reasons.

In a recent issue of our magazine, The Oracle, there was an interview with our Grand Chaplain, who was asked questions that are posed in this thread. His basic response is that our Fraternity needs to be more Christian, and evangelize those brothers who may be unbelievers by precept and example. he doesn't believe there are true atheists.There are brothers of other faiths but a true atheist would be a vey rare thing in our midst. He would be "in the closet"so to speak

An example of this check out the present message on the website: <http://www.oppf.org>.

I would feel very uncomfortable if Alpha had a Christian message such as the one on the Omega site. I believe that having Christian values is fine, but I don't want anyone in my fraternity to evangelize to me.

Wow...I'm with Senusret with that one. I would extremely put off if my organization put up a message such as that. What about all the members of Omega Psi Phi who aren't Christian, but may subscribe to another faith? Are they somehow bad members or something?

True and yet not true. I will certainly agree that people and traditions will interpret things differently. But the Councils of Chalcedon and Nicea firmly established Christianity as trinitarian, and that trinitarian doctrine as foundational to Christianity.

I feel pretty confident that the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and the vast majority of Protestants (mainline/oldline and Evangelical) would say that one cannot be Christian without accepting trinitarian belief in some form. Now, one can certainly disagree with them, but since they constitute the overwhelming majority of Christians in the world, I question whether "most people" -- at least most Christians -- would say that someone who doesn;t believe in a trinitarian god at all is a Christian.

We can all describe ouselves however we like, but that doesn't mean that others will agree with our self-descriptions.

Atheists are welcome. That would disqualify some of our most dedicated brothers. Seriously, it takes more than agreeing with me about religion to be my brother. Being someone's brother is about being someone's brother, not judging them based on religion.

Buddha is not a "Supreme Being," Tom. Traditional Buddhism is nontheistic -- either not believing in the existence of a creator God (maybe not necessarily denying it either) or finding the concept irrelevant.

A Buddha in Buddhism is any person who has reached full enlightenment.

This isn't a theology board, so I apologize in advance to everyone for this major hijack, but I was raised in a Christian church where many of the members (including myself) did not accept trinitarian doctrine. (Today, I am Unitarian Universalist, if anyone cares.) For most of my life, I've been surrounded by people who only consider very select Protestant denominations to be "real" Christians - Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and my own church (since we rejected the Protestant label) were not allowed in the club. So I am very sensitive about both of these issues. If someone believes themselves to be Christian by their own standards, what do you really care? I mean, do you really know what Christianity was truly intended to be - does anyone today, for that matter?

Or donated money like Stevan Segal.

-Rudey

My apologies as well.

Quote:

but I was raised in a Christian church where many of the members (including myself) did not accept trinitarian doctrine. (Today, I am Unitarian Universalist, if anyone cares.) For most of my life, I've been surrounded by people who only consider very select Protestant denominations to be "real" Christians - Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and my own church (since we rejected the Protestant label) were not allowed in the club. So I am very sensitive about both of these issues. If someone believes themselves to be Christian by their own standards, what do you really care? I mean, do you really know what Christianity was truly intended to be - does anyone today, for that matter?

Yes, people can disagree on what Christianity was intended to be, or is now. But that was not my point.

My point was that words have meaning -- generally ascribed meaning. Otherwise, they are a useless form of communication. Since at least the Fourth Century (if not earlier), the generally-agreed upon "definition" of what makes one "Christian" has included trinitarian belief.

Many people (and faith traditions) do not share this belief and still call themselves Christian. That's their prerogative, and my point is not that I have a problem with that. My point is only that just because one describes one's self as Christian doesn't mean that the majority of Christians in the world would recognize the person as a Christian.

Some may say that's intolerance or exclusivity. I don't think it is, necessarily at least.

LOL. :D

I understand your perspective but one joins a Greek organization as a voluntary decision. It's not the govt. or a civil authority. I have been in situations in which men were pressurred to confess Jesus Christ as Lord. I disagreed with that. I've not seen active persecution of non-Christian brothers but one has to know that Omega Psi Phi does have a strong Christian ethos and tradition, among other things:), and you will meet this in the Fraternity. Omega is not for everybody!

Soror,

As Alpha Kappa Alpha is NOT a Christian Organization, members are therefore not required to participate in services/activities that exclude them due to their personal faith/beliefs/non-beliefs etc. Also, while prayer is being given, anyone present can choose to meditate, do their own prayer, leave the room, etc. :cool:

To answer the OP: As a non-Christian in an organization dominated by Christians, it is more important to my chapter (two of us are non-Christian) to recognize all faiths, but most importantly maintain those Christian-like ideals of serving all mankind, loving and recognizing another as your own self, abiding by the golden rule, etc. My argument is and always has been as long as someone is doing what they are supposed to do (remembering their obligation to serve all mankind and the universal spirit of love of all), then I would have no problem with that.

It's not as if an athiest can't have all of these attributes; the only issue is whether or not she recognizes Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior (to be a Christian) or praying to Allah as her God, etc, etc. I think people oftentimes confuse not believing with being a bad person/not possessing high moral standards. This is not true. Does she need to pray to MY God, or any God to be a good soror? No. There are some so-called Christians who aren't doing what they are supposed to do and some atheists who are on top of things. How they lead their spiritual life is of no relevance to me. All she needs to do is remember and uphold the purpose of Alpha Kappa Alpha...with a smile! :cool: ;) :D

enigma_AKA

I stated that Alpha Kappa Alpha is Christian based, others may choose to affiliate with any religion, but once in the organization they will see that our members are mostly comprised of those upholding Christian principles and our members serve in many capacities in various churches. I have been a member for over twenty years and do not recall reading any obituaries of members who were not affiliated in some aspect with some religious affiliation . I think an atheist and an AKA is a misnomer and I don't know of any of my Sorors who have sponsored as such :eek: Upon what would she have based her critieria for membership? since we are selective about our membership- I don't see how something as important as that would have been overlooked- and more importantly what moral compass does she follow internally? As an organization founded on Moral principles- I believe that a belief in God would include that also. I'm sorry if you were given the impression otherwise:confused: Perhaps with more maturity within the organization you will truly find out its purposes.

My sentiments exactly-we wouldn't know what they believed in.::(

I don't know anything about AKA and what beliefs its members have to have. But I don't think that, in general, the fact that a person does not believe in God means that they don't have morals. I believe that morals are something that is built into humans (other than, for instance, sociopaths, of course), and no one needs to believe in God in order to know the difference between right and wrong. I do believe that God gave us the knowledge of right and wrong, but that is a different question - you don't have to believe in God to have what he gave you. In fact, I think that it is probably more impressive for an atheist to still be moral, because they really are doing what is right for right's sake, instead of out of fear of post-death retribution.

I know this was beside the point (sorry, y'all), but I thought I'd throw that in.

Just so you know, the Orthodox Church is neither Protestant nor a denomination. She is the Church founded on Pentecost and has not changed her doctrine since then.

Thanks for that...

enigma_AKA