See, that's what I think too. When I joined DZ, I was technically a "new member" because it was right after all that PC stuff started, but in my mind, I was a pledge. To me, the term "new member" implies someone who has just been initiated. Someone who hasn't been initiated is not a member yet, new or otherwise.

quote:
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Originally posted by AEPhiSierra
My problem with the term "new member" is that "new members", at least in my mind, are not members of my sorority yet.
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At the United States Military Acadamy at West Point, the incoming freshmen are known as New Cadets for their 6 weeks of Cadet Basic Training aka Beast Barracks. All mail must be addressed New Cadet John Doe... Once they complete CBT, they are recognized as Cadets but they are still definitely plebes until graduation day of the following year.

Back in the olden days when I was a pledge, I always felt that I was a full member of my chapter. The new terms make our GLOs sound more like corporations than social organizations.

Fourth class year for the cadinks and middies at USMA, USNA and USAFA is considerably watered down from days of old... 'Beast Barracks'/Plebe Summer/Basic Cadet Training hasn't changed much but cadets and midshipmen are usually recognized by March instead of waiting until 'June Week'.

Fourth classmen (the military academy version of freshmen) names:

USMA/USNA/USCGA/USMMA - Plebes
USAFA - Doolies, four-degrees
VMI - Rats
Norwich - Rooks
Citadel - Knobs
Texas A&M - Fish

In a meeting today at THE PITT. (Ks), with two ELCs (Educational Leadership Consultants (Old Days Traveling Secretarys), LXA is using:

Recruitment, Not Pledgeing.
New Associates, Not Pledgeing.
Bidding, Not Pinning.

In 4 days, these two Young Men an Brothers have Recruited 13 New Associates and have 4 days more to go. They are very pleased with the New Possibles and told us many came from other GLOs on campus and were unhappy with the hazing that was involved and left them.

This a total rebuilding of My Chapter there and without IHQ help, We would be closed as We should have been.

Anotehr Well known Fraterity that was trying to make a push to come on campus did not have this kind of backing and have gone into the dust.

Old School Terms, yes, they are going by the way side just for the conotations that they bring.

\\\\


Even at USAFA, they are still officially plebes. The names such as beanheads, smacks, and doolies are considered derogatory and are not official names to call the fourth-classmen. I don't presume to speak for any or all the US academies but a few of them have "nicknames" for each class. We won't get into what each academy calls the other academies....:)

You could be right, but I've spent a fair amount of time at AFA and have never heard anyone called a plebe.

Doolies are another matter.

ETA, I did a Google search on "Plebes" and came up with the following:

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;...linktext=plebs

According to this, Plebe is used at West Point, Annapolis and the Merchant Marine Academy, and AFA uses "Doolie" which was a class below a plebe in Roman societies.

(Be sure to read to the bottom of that page which is where the Service Academies are mentioned.

Re: Old-School Greek terms wrong?
 

I didn't know "Pledgemaster" was still being used. I always thought it sounded like "Slavemaster" and what each did was pretty similar.

I don't have a problem with pledge, or pledging. When I was an undergrad I was the Pledge Educator. That's makes more sense than Pledge Master.

Re: Re: Old-School Greek terms wrong?
 

Well I can definetly see your point. My school has very deep and strong local roots from 1929 when the first GLO was formed. The locals all affiliated with a national ~1990-1995, so some of these old terms are still used, such as pledgemaster.

I am glad that other people feel the same way I do about these new PC terms...for a while, I felt as if I was the only one who felt this way but I guess not

"I often worry that being too PC waters down the Greek experience for people and eliminates some of the most fun, bonding traditions that come with being a member of a GLO."


If the semantics don't matter then how is being PC watering down the Greek experience? I am PC because I hope to work in student affairs where referring to a residence hall as a dorm is quickly reprimanded (more than I ever was letting 'pledge' slip). Like I said previously, the words don't matter all that much, but I am going to try to follow whatever the governing bodies and my nationals go with because they govern me as a sorority member. I do feel that more time should be spent focusing on what the chapters do instead of how things are said.

Just my opinion.

Because the terms rush, pledge etc ARE part of the fun traditions of a GLO. Following your logic, we should all just be members instead of brothers and sisters because what does it matter what we call each other, anyway.

And as I've stated before, what happens has NOT changed with the change of terms, especially where rush is concerned. I wouldn't mind calling it "recruitment" if it really was, but it's not.

What I'm referring to is more than just semantics. I'm talking about the fact that, over the past 10-12 years, Greek organizations have become overly PC... not just in the terminology that they use but, also, in what their members are permitted to do. Chapters are no longer able to do activities that were fun and bonding for their pledges and active sisters because national governing bodies of those chapters are now saying that they are "hazing" activities. As someone else said earlier in this thread, it seems as if the whole Greek community is being PC'd to death because of the bad acts of a few.

For example, when we had our Big/Lil Sis revealing, I found out who my Big Sis was by dressing up in a costume that she made for me, complete with a little hat that she had decorated. I followed a trail of her clues all over the park that we'd rented for our pledge retreat until I finally found my way into a big cabin where all the older sisters were waiting. I found my big sister by looking for someone dressed like my opposite, but with the same hat -- in this case, I was Pepper and she was Salt. It was so much fun! Now, scavenger hunts are considered "hazing" because pledges participate in the hunt but not the sisters. In the PC world, if the whole chapter isn't doing it, then it must be "hazing." Ridiculous.

Also during my pledge period, we were each given a paper turtle. We decorated the front of our turtles however we liked, and on the backs we had to collect signatures from all of the older sisters by visiting them and answering a DZ-related history question. This served two purposes: 1) it gave us the opportunity to spend individual time with the active sisters and get to know them better and 2) it helped us prepare for our pledge test that had to be passed in order to be initiated. I still have that turtle in my pledge scrapbook, and it brings back great memories every time I see it. However, our chapter isn't allowed to do this activity anymore because it's considered "hazing." Again, ridiculous.

These are just a couple of examples, but I could give many more. I love my sorority, and I'm an active alumna. I have the utmost respect for the sisters who govern our organization. However, that doesn't mean that I always agree with everything that National does.

"Recruitment" always makes me think of the military.

Yes, or Hare Krishnas.

Aside from the connotations on THAT word...which is supposed to be "better" than rush...many chapters simply don't do what "recruitment" is described as in the Greek world. It's asinine for a school like Ole Miss to call what they are doing "recruitment" because it isn't.

why not have all members do the activities instead of just the new members, to still keep them as traditions and not chnce them being construed as hazing. like have the new member make a costume or hat or something for her big and then they get to see the excitement of both the sister and the new member wearing the item the other made?

or do the turtle thing but have the sisters have to answers history questions (serves multiple purposes-older members stay up on their info, it shows the new members that it is important to know the history and such of the chapter and it helps the new members learn the info). There are so many things that can be done and produce 'tangible' memories markers any activity or craft could do the same. While I do not think the original purpose of these activities was hazing or what not, some 'traditions' tend to chance over time anyway. an example is that my bf fraternity was able to trace back exactly when certain 'traditions' started in his chapter and realized these things that were thought to be done since the chapter was founded, began over 6 years after the chapter was founded. is that a 'tradition' really?

i feel our rituals and initiations are such strong traditions, as much as i love other fun activities, when i think back about the major highlights in my greek life, going through initiation as a new member and as an initiated sister has made so much more of an impact and really affect my everyday life as i think about what are the true and deep meanings of my org. the unveiling of my big sister or having to recite the greek alphabet to a match really pail in comparison to initiation and that is the only real true 'tradition' from chapter to chapter of each org.

sorry, that was so long winded and kind of a bit off topic.

Your ideas are good ones. :) However, my point is that we shouldn't have had to change our Big Sis revealing tradition or our turtle signature tradition (and many, many others) because we weren't doing anything wrong in the first place. That's what I meant earlier when I said that all GLO's are being punished because of the bad acts of a few.

I agree that our rituals are very important and meaningful. Without them, Delta Zeta wouldn't be what she is today. However, individual chapter traditions are important and meaningful, too, and many of them have been erased or revised because of the fear that they MIGHT be considered hazing by someone outside of the organization. That's very sad to me.

Regarding your mention of your boyfriend's fraternity traditions -- I would say that, even if they started after the chapter was founded, they are still meaningful for the men in that chapter. I'm of the opinion that a tradition can be five years old or 500 years old -- if it means something to the people who practice it, then it's important. Age doesn't matter.

Like some others who have posted, that's exactly the problem that I have with "new members." As far as I'm concerned, one is not a "member" until one has been initiated.

Part of this may be a difference in fraternity vs. sorority culture. For us, and for most NIC fraternities I know of, the chapter has two votes on new members -- one to invite them to pledge, and another, at the end of the "pledge period," to admit them to full membership via initiation. Until that latter vote and initiation happens, you are not a brother and therefore not a member, at least not a full member.

We did drop the word "pledge" as a noun almost 30 years ago, using instead "probationary member" (usually shortened in everyday usage to PM or "probate"). We kept "pledge" for the act of associating with the Fraternity, so that one becomes a probationary member by going through the pledging ceremony and pledging to become (in the future) a member of the Fraternity. So, we still say we "pledged," and I call someone a "pledge" if context makes it appropriate. A non-Sinfonian might not know what I mean if I call someone a "probationary member," but they'll know what I mean if I call him a "pledge."

Heh - our Sinfonians called them "probes". :)

LOL! I'd never heard that one. :D

I don't really see what the big deal is with all of this. In "professional" company such as Nationals use politically correct language and in informal situations say what you want.

As a somewhat newer member to the Greek system (initiated Spring 2005) I don't see why it matters to make such a big deal out of the language of it all. For me, I've been using the politically corrent language because that's what I've been exposed to and I think that eventaully it will just be second nature to everyone active in the Greek system. Brothers/Sisters that remember the old ways of labeling things will be graduating and going alum and it won't matter anymore because people like me will be the older members.

Why complain when the change is already in progress and inevitable??

I think a lot of it has to do with the campus culture you were exposed to. One of our Greek Advisors had come from a conservatice campus where you don't say "frat", but most of the male GLO's called themselves frats, and our Sig Kap hosted "Frats at Bat" and no one ever had a problem with it.

Unlike the NPC sororities, I don't see the NIC (IFC fraternities) moving toward a standardization of terms anytime soon. "Pledge" and "Rush" will most likely continue to be used by some NIC/IFC fraternities. On the inter/national level and on the chapter level.

It probably doesn't matter as much to you because you are, as you say, a newer member. You weren't brought up in your GLO using the traditional terminology, so therefore it doesn't mean much to you. I can understand that. :)

However, the traditional Greek terminology means something to older Greeks like me whose scrapbooks are filled with the old words like "Pledge" and "Rush" and who have very fond memories of doing "pledge" activities that are now not allowed due to the PC climate. (see my earlier posts for examples) It bothers me to know that my younger sisters are not able to participate in the same fun, bonding things that I did.

I realize that the change is in progress. However, why should I and others keep quiet if we disagree with something? I'm still an active part of my sorority, and my opinion -- be it in the minority or the majority -- should count for something.

Please know that I'm not trying to be argumentative -- I just strongly feel that some of our unique Greek traditions have been cast aside too quickly in the rush to be politically correct. Perhaps I would feel differently if I pledged last year. Perhaps you would feel differently if you pledged when I did. :)

I'm sure you meant "in the recruitment to be politically correct." ;)

DZ--
I understand where you're coming from. And I don't think that there is anything wrong with still using the old terminology, but for the sake of formal occasions I don't see why people don't just use the terms that make the "in charge" feel comfortable. They changed the terminology because of some of the negative stereotypes that surround the Greek Community. It goes under the same understanding that while writing a paper for my elementary education classes I use the word "children" when I may otherwise refer to them in regular speech as "kids". People change their choice of words to fit all situations all the time. Are you going to talk the same way to your Grandmother or Pastor as you do your best friend? I would hope not. I've read a lot of your posts, but I must have missed some of the ones refering to events that are not permissible now, could you give me an example? I would love to know more about the events are now "banned".

I say use any language you want just be mindful of those around you.

KDLadyZK -- I hear you, and I do agree that, to keep the peace, the new terms can be used during formal occasions. However, I'll probably continue to voice my opinions privately to sisters who, hopefully, will keep my thoughts in mind before voting on any other changes. I like to think of myself as the "squeaky wheel" in this case. ;)

Below are some of the examples of activities that I posted about earlier... Please let me know what you think. I'm interested to hear what a younger Greek thinks about them and if they would still be considered fun by collegians' standards today. :)

When we had our Big/Lil Sis revealing, I found out who my Big Sis was by dressing up in a costume that she made for me, complete with a little hat that she had decorated. I followed a trail of her clues all over the park that we'd rented for our pledge retreat until I finally found my way into a big cabin where all the older sisters were waiting. I found my big sister by looking for someone dressed like my opposite, but with the same hat -- in this case, I was Pepper and she was Salt. It was so much fun! Now, scavenger hunts are considered "hazing" because pledges participate in the hunt but not the sisters. In the PC world, if the whole chapter isn't doing it, then it must be "hazing."

Also during my pledge period, we were each given a paper turtle. We decorated the front of our turtles however we liked, and on the backs we had to collect signatures from all of the older sisters by visiting them and answering a DZ-related history question. This served two purposes: 1) it gave us the opportunity to spend individual time with the active sisters and get to know them better and 2) it helped us prepare for our pledge test that had to be passed in order to be initiated. I still have that turtle in my pledge scrapbook, and it brings back great memories every time I see it. However, our chapter isn't allowed to do this activity anymore because it's considered "hazing."

LOL -- I thought of the same thing as I was typing the word "rush." :D

KDLadyZK, I don't mean to butt in, but I can tell you a couple of events from 1976 that my pledge class "had" to do that are forbidden now:

1. We had to memorize 3 things about each active (from a list provided to us), go visit with them, tell them what we learned (if they asked--they hardly did), and wait for them to offer to sign a wooden key (the key is one of our symbols). Funny thing, they learned about us too just by our visiting them. What a wonderful keepsake!

2. We had to dress up to find our big sisters in whatever costume they provided. Then we had to follow the clues all around campus until we found them. This was so fun!

Granted, we had to be pledges for a whole semester AND make our grades before we could be initiated. I'm not saying how we did it back then was better or worse, but I enjoyed every minute of my pledgeship. For the record, I do try to use the new terminology, but I revert to the old sometimes. :)

Kids vs. children is not the same thing that we are discussing - that's a matter of "proper" vs "slang" terminology. It's like saying "isn't" vs "ain't."

The problem that I and many others have with the new terms is that they really don't change anything. "New members" still get hazed in some chapters. People are still cut hastily at "recruitment." It's just trying to pretty something up to make it seem like everything in Greek life is roses and daisies and we've corrected anything that's wrong. New terms aren't going to change anyone's view of Greek life. Actions ARE.

We've gone so overboard saying everything is hazing, that I think it has the opposite effect - chapters that have been doing everything right are all of a sudden told they're hazing and so they say "well hell, if we're going to get in trouble for using string to find our bigs, we might as well throw in some chugging while we're at it." And the chapters that DID haze heavily - well, they just didn't pay any attention at all.

If you want to go through your life changing things you believe in and that mean something to you to give other people a false impression, fine. I personally think it's hypocrisy at its height.

Thanks for the reminder, MSKKG... I'd forgotten about those things! We had a longer pledge period and had to make our grades also. We also had to pass our pledge exam before we could be initiated. I think the grade had to be a 90 or higher. :)

Those do still sound fun and we have actually adapted some similar activities. For my Big Sis reveal we were each given a pair of cute novelty socks to put on. Then the Big Sises were covered at the door so that we could only see their socks and we had to guess who it was. And to get my Lil Sis she had to dig through a bucket of candle I left for her for a clue and part of the costume I was dressed up in. So, there are still fun things that we're "allowed" to do and I do agree that neither of the activities that you stated sounded like hazing to me. I think that the history questions could be adapted somehow so that it could still be done within the "no hazing guidelines". I definately think that they've made the hazing rules so broad and general that many innocent activities are included in the hazing category. Unfortunately, in an effort to keep people safe it's just come to that.

When my mom was going through rush she was blind folded and driven around so that she wouldn't know where the ritual event was held. She said that nothing bad happened, but today that would definately not be allowed because of all of the hazing rules...

We also had to pass an exam with only missing 2 questions. We were required to go to 2 chapter meetings, weekly new member meetings, study tables, Panhell meetings, and a volunteer activity that other memeber are required to go to. So really there are still requirements of being a new member they're just not called a pledgeship. I don't believe that the "anti-hazing" has caused chapters to let members in that aren't up to the standards of the chapter. I think that it can still be fun today even though a few things have changed. I'm not say that this way is better or worse it's just different and it's the way things are and girls are still having a good time joining or there wouldn't be anyone joining.

I'm glad to hear that some of the older regulations are still in place. We had study nights, weekly pledge meetings, Panhellenic meetings, etc., too. We weren't allowed to attend chapter meetings, however, since we weren't initiated members. I liked it that way, and wish it were still the case. Not being able to attend the meetings made us want to be full-fledged sisters even more. It really created a feeling of excited anticipation for us... We couldn't wait until our own initiation so that we could find out what we'd been missing. :D

BTW - I love your sock and candy stories-- both are very cute ways to do a Big Sis revealing! Were y'all allowed to go on a weekend retreat for your revealing?

In some instances it is the same thing because if you think about it whether you like it or not the terminology has changed and "new member" vs "pledge" is now "proper" vs. "slang". Okay, some chapters haven't changed their hazing, but that has to be dealt with by the school, national chapter, and those involved in the chapter. Many of us DON'T haze and we're fine with the change of wording. I understand that eveyone has a right to their own opinion so if you want to think that it's a horrible disservice to the whole greek community for changing "rush" to "recruitment" then that's fine.

And as far as "changing things I believe in and that mean something to me to give other people a false impression", I'm NOT! Being respectful of other people and their feelings about certain language is not being a hypocrit or changing my beliefs. Using proper language in formal situations is being respectful. You many not agree with what authorities have deemed as proper language, but that doesn't mean that you should disrespect their decision. And as far as my beliefs go if you would have read all of what I had to say you would know that persoanlly I have no issues with the current language being used (PNM, recruitment, ect.) yet I do understand some of the arguments that have been presented.

It is, if you don't change the procedure.

If you have 1000 women going to 20 minute parties and then are cutting half of them....you're not participating in recruitment.

Recruitment is looking at who and what you want for your sorority and actively trying to get those women to join. Taking whoever decides to go to a series of parties is not recruitment.

And pledge is not and never has been a slang term.

As far as chapter meetings go the new members are led out during any part of the meeting that is pertaining to ritual. So, really there still was the anticipation of wanting to know what the whole thing was about. Also, they aren't allowed to get all of the group emails that we send out daily (we receive around 10-15 emails per day from chapter members with business pertaining to the chapter). They have their own email account where the New Member Educator screens emails and sends only information that she sees as important for the girls. Obviously, if we're sending out info to plan for their events we don't want them to know ahead of time!

Our Big Sis reveal was done during a new member meeting (the new girls weren't told ahead of time). Any chapter member could go if they wanted. Afterward, your whole greek family (big, lil, grand big, ect.) usually goes out to eat.

A dictionary definition of recruitment is a process of adding new individuals to a population. That is what we're doing. And we have done the work to get those girls to come to the parties. We have built a reputation on campus, actively talked with the girls outside of the process to show many of the them was greek life is like, shown our own values so that others know what we stand for and the kind of members we want, we've encouraged our nongreek friends go to through the process because we think they would be an asset, and by setting grade requirements (atleast on some campuses) we have actively begun a selection based on what we want in the girls we are looking for.

Like it or not pledge is fast becoming a slang term although it may not have been in the past.

**bangs head on desk**

PLEDGE IS NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN A SLANG TERM. "Slang" is a substitute for another word. Pledge was not and is not a substitute for anything else. It was and is used in official publications and rituals. MANY Greek organizations continue to use it.

And I see that James is on so maybe he can explain recruitment vs. rush (he does it very well) because I've done it about 80 times in this thread and apparently it's not processing.

For Sigma Chi Fraternity (and I'm sure other GLOs) "pledge" is the *proper* word to use - in all formal situations.

Thank you!

I think it is absolutely ridiculous to be a part of a Greek organization that doesn't have the good sense to call pledges by their name - pledges. Any of these ultra-liberal, yankee advisors that try to come in and ruin what little pride is left in the northern Greek scene should be fired from their menial position and left to do the work of Hillary Clinton instead of ruining the pride, tradition, and good status of Greeks everywhere.


"Y'all can go to hell. I'm going to Texas." -Davy Crockett