I was a legacy to Kappa via my sister and I believe that I was cut very harshly after 10-party day at my campus because of this fact. I didn't know at first if the chapter was the best fit for me (and even sometimes after I was in the house I had doubts, but we all do at one time or another) but I did love it. And I knew it wasn't automatic I would be in.

As an adviser, I have had to field calls and letters from angry or disappointed sisters, mothers and grandmothers about how their legacy was not given a bid to the chapter. I do my best to explain to them and the chapter that while we give legacies extra courtesy and consideration, the chapter might not be the best fit. Nonetheless, some of these women have cut ties completely to the fraternity (not just the chapter or alumnae association) because of these situations.

I realize I'm kind of an unusual case, but a system like this would've totally worked for me--my sister is 13 years older, went to a different school, and (because we're actually stepsisters) we have different last names. If I had chosen not to mention on my rush application that I was a legacy, I doubt anyone would've ever known.

That is correct, but human error does occur, and sometimes the wrong chapters receive the clean copy.

Also, it is a very Panhellenic campus, and people know whose younger sisters are coming through recruitment. In one case, an ADPi legacy came through with the intent not to join ADPi, as she wanted to do her own thing and her sister was a current collegian. Through her sister, she had strong relationships with members of other sororities. These girls fought hard for her, but she was dropped because of her sister being well-known and well liked and a current member of ADPi. At the end, the sister joined ADPi and was actually really happy about the decision, but I feel she got cut hard early on because of her legacy status. Conversely, we recruited another young lady that year who was a triple legacy to another sorority, and we were very excited to have gotten her, for her own attributes and the thrill of "stealing" someone else's leg... So I guess it plays both ways.

At Ole Miss some older houses will have 50+ legacies going through...sometimes more! I know one house who had 80 legacies going through one year and obviously they could not take all 80 legacies!

I get frustrated when an alumna has a daugther going through and for whatever reason her daugther picks another group to pledge. Sometimes the alumna will get mad at her chapter when really their daugther was never told about her mother's sororities until she was a freshman in college! I think in order for it to be a true mutual selection for a legacy the mother, grandmother, sister, etc must talk to their legacy about their sorority and share memories, experiences, etc...

It is a tricky situation. I hate to hear that a pnm is released from a sorority when she was a legacy, it breaks my heart. However, each woman is different from her mother/grandmother/sister and we all know that houses do change over years. It might be tough to see your daugther/sister go to a different GLO from your own but if she's happy isn't that the most important thing? I know my mother told me when I went through recruitment to just join the group that makes you happy. I know that's what I want for my daugther, for her to be happy....

This is exactly worries me. There was a time when the number of women in any given college was much smaller, and less in sororities. Now, we have a situation where there actually could be more legacies than quota.

I see this as something that NPC really does need to address on a national basis - before too much damage (and hurt!) is done.

What about the flip side of things?

You guys say there is damage being done because legacies aren't being given enough special consideration (though I personally think they're given a big dose of extra consideration solely on their birthright, and not by who they actually are and what their personal accomplisments are).

But what about the damage that is done when legacies are given too much consideration? How is greek life supposed to grow and expand to new groups of people? Doesn't having an extra in because of your birthright contribute to the elitist and snobby stereotypes that we are always fighting against?

If legacies were given even more consideration (no one seems to have a real suggestion as to what could be done differently), then greek life would stay largely within the same circles of people, becoming sort of incestuous (for lack of a better term to use).

We may want our daughters to be happy, but there is nothing wrong with wanting our daughters to be happy in our own sororities ;)

Okay, I had an idea and I'm not necessarily advocating it. It's more a thought that should evolve with discussion.

What if a legacy (confirmed to be a true legacy by the college Panhellenic and sorority's exectuive offices) didn't count in a chapter's quota. One of the problems I see a lot with legacies as an adviser is that if the chapter doesn't really LOVE the legacy they are worried she is taking up space in their pledge class/bid list.

I don't mind at all if you think my idea is not feasible/smart, I just thought it would be fun to get a discussion going of possible solutions.

Hmm...I'm not supporting that one way or the other, but if they had a separate legacy quota that was pretty low but still separate...well I graduated about 2 years ago so I'm a bit rusty when it comes to recruitment, but I'd certainly be interested in opinions!

I think it's a good idea that would be difficult to implement, but may help alleviate some of the "legacy issues."

I think legacies make ideal sisters because they have witnessed the lifetime aspects of fraternal membership. They have seen the huge part it can play in one's life. Like it or not, there are legacies in college selection, job picks etc. It is usually called nepotism.
Having come from a line of women who went to womens' colleges, I luckily went to a coed school where legacies weren't important. In fact, we were shocked to get references ahead of time, 99% from southern girls venturing north. Ditto with my real bio. sister's chapter Now that I have a daughter who will most likely be going to a Southern school, it's a whole different ball game. She is "prepping" through her friends who are a year ahead of her. Like many of the other women on this board with kids of college age, we have witnessed the disappointment of our peers when the legacy daughters are cut so quickly.

Really, that depends on the area of the country. As has been much stated on GC, the South is vastly different than the Northeast or the Midwest or the West coast. Some legacies have not "witnessed the lifetime aspects of fraternal membership" and some don't even know they're legacies until they go through recruitment. I've seen it happen as an adviser at a mid-size Midwestern school with a somewhat strong Panhellenic.

While I believe that legacies have potential for stronger ties to and possibly may be more active in their chapter than a non-legacy, being a legacy isn't going to guarantee that woman gives two whits about her legacy organization once given a bid.

It's really up to the initiated member to show her legacy the importance of the organization and what it means to her.

Interesting thought. Probably wouldn't play out on my campus though. We have four chapters - the two largest hover around the same numbers year in and year out, the next one has about 10 fewer, and the smallest has about 30 fewer. The problem is that the two largest ALWAYS have more legacies participating in formal recruitment. Usually around 10 each for the two largest, 3 for the next, and 1 for the smallest if they are lucky. So that would just perpetuate the big getting bigger - something the smaller two would never accept. It's nice to start the dialogue though and think of different options!!

When I'm working with our collegians at pre-recruitment training and practice, we - as required by our International Organization - review the legacy policy and make sure that all members understand it. I make a special point to emphasize that legacy status is NOT a guarantee of membership and make eye contact with all the legacies in the room. I was not a legacy, but I couldn't imagine being in that discussion and hearing a policy that reads "We must take all legacies no matter if they fit or not, because someone who pledged a different school 30 years ago is more important than the relationships women form in Greek life TODAY."

I know that sometimes legacies feel that the only reason they were offered a bid is because of the family member - sometimes they are told this point blank by a competitive chapter. It is important to me as an advisor to assure ALL the women in my chapter that they were chosen in the same way they chose us, and did NOT get in by default.

Perhaps some young women don't care how they got in, it's the getting in that is most important. To each her own. But speaking from MY experience and the young women who are legacies that I know, they would sooner be non-Greek than to find out they only got in because of Mom.

As a legacy (3 family members, one of whom was my mother) who was cut, I wholeheartedly agree. Nothing could have prepared my family for the heartbreak and devastation that we ALL went through as a result of my rush experience. I was very involved in both my community and my high school extracurriculars, made good grades, and was friends with everyone in high school. I was expecting to have a good rush, but pledging anything other than my legacy never crossed my mind. I was cut not only by my legacy, but by every other "top house" and was later told by friends that their houses DO automatically cut legacies to other "top houses." Apparently, being a legacy today is actually a disadvantage because of new legacy quotas in place at my school (I'm not sure if this was a policy made by the school or by the sorority) which stated that only 30% of your pledge class could be made up of legacies because they want to "give other girls a chance." (Personally, I feel that those girls whose families have invested time, money, and loyalty in the sorority should be given that chance over girls with no ties at all.) We didn't know this at the time, but basically if you were a legacy from another chapter, you were automatically cut because they didn't even have room for all of the legacies from THEIR chapter. Sororities enforcing policies which ENCOURAGE chapters to cut legacies absolutely makes me sick. In my opinion, there is absolutely no excuse for it. The legacy coming through rush meets all of your girls and can decide for herself whether or not the house is a "good fit" for her. And, believe it or not, not all of them will feel that it is. A girl who truly is not a good fit will realize it and will not want to join. But if she's had multiple family members in the sorority, I firmly believe that she should be given the opportunity to make that decision for herself instead of being cut because someone who spent 2 minutes talking to her feels like "she would be happier somewhere else" and wants to leave a space available for their high school best friend. Despite what people tell you, there's nothing "mutual" about today's recruitment process. You go back to the houses that invite you back... not the ones that you select- period. Nothing good comes out of cutting a legacy. Not only are you deeply hurting this girl and your family, you're screwing your GLO over financially. I know that after my experience, all of my family members (who would have continued to donate HEAVILY and enthusiastically had I continued the tradition) stopped giving money, as did several close family friends and "sisters" who were outraged. Those of you who are in favor of cutting legacies, or don't think it's a big deal, I can assure you that it is, and as others have said, it's something that you really can't fully understand until it happens to you or your daughter. And when that does happen, nothing can prepare you or console you. Frankly, I'm shocked and disappointed at the casual attitudes that so many people seem to have about it and I wish that I could better express the humiliation, pain, resentment, and complete devastation that I felt when it happened. Since GLOs no longer notify the alums when their daughters are being cut, I had to call my mom, who had already made arrangements to come up for bid day, and explain to her that her GLO cut me. It's an experience I wouldn't wish on anyone, and I could go on about this for hours, but I'll stop. I just hope that anyone reading this seriously considers all of the negative ramifications of cutting a legacy... you're not just cutting her. It's a total slap in the face to her mother and I promise you that in a cutting a legacy who really did feel that this GLO was her home, you are cutting off ALL future ties with ALL alums from her family. If you're not a legacy to THAT chapter, I strongly believe that being a legacy will hurt you. My rush experience was something that now, three years later, I continue to think about every day. I honestly don't know if I'll ever fully be able to accept it or "get over it." And I know that my mother still hasn't. After seeing this thread, I felt compelled to join just so that I could share my experience and hopefully prevent it from happening to someone else.

What school was this? I'm guessing it was a sorority policy because I don't think the individual groups would stand for the school/local panhel exercising this kind of decision over member selection.

I think that family members who cut off their donations to a sorority because a chapter cut a girl is a little off. The girl may NOT have been a good fit for the chapter. And to punish the entire national/international organization because of one chapter isn't very logical. A chapter will be shut down for hazing and physically harming it's members, and that won't cause other members to stop donating to the organization.

I could understand more cutting off donations to the local chapter that did the cutting, but not the org as a whole.

Some legacies are NOT all that and a bag of chips. Sorry. A legacy may be nice and sweet and be good on paper, but she just may have not had that "it" factor to stand out during rush. And when they don't bother to have an open mind to any other groups during rush, then that's also their own fault for having tunnelvision.

And it's also wanting it both ways- if you want chapters to give legacies even MORE special treatment than they already do, then there's even MORE incentive for other orgs to cut them early on to give other girls a chance. Not to mention that our orgs would become more and more "inbred" and girls who do not have a legacy connection would have less of a chance.

What if you have MORE legacies going through than a group could take? Then how would you decide what legacies to cut? And then no non-legacies would go in?

And again, no one has given an example of what could be done differently. I think in almost all groups, a legacy is given one courtesy invite, and in many orgs if they are invited to pref they must be on the first bid list (if possible). Why should a legacy get even more of an advantage than that? That's a lot of advantage, right there.

And being in a sorority, while a wonderful experience, is not for everyone, including some legacies. And not being in a sorority is not the end of the world. There's a lot of other things have as a part of your life.

Rejection happens in life. You get rejected from college. You get cut from rush. You get rejected from grad school. You get rejected by someone you have a crush on. You get rejected for a job. It happens, and it's part of life. People with strong character will learn from their mistakes, and try again or move on.

Nepotism is a fact of life and should be encouraged in a group that calls its members "sisters." I know plenty of people who drop all donations to universities and private orgs (ie GLOS) if their children don't get selected.

You can't criticize donors for their choice of donation recipients. And yes, they have the right to drop any donations to groups they don't see meeting their ideals.

I have to respectfully disagree. As kddani pointed out, legacies are already given quite a bit of consideration--would it really be fair to give more?

It's also more than just an issue of "fair" and "unfair." Say a legacy came through rush and did not click with her legacy chapter at all, while there were other girls who fit right in but were not legacies to that group. Should a sorority bid a girl they don't think would make a good member just because her mom/sister/grandmother/whatever was a member? I don't believe so, because it seems as though the chapter wouldn't function well if the sisters really didn't like or get along with each other. If it were a case in which a chapter was deciding between a legacy and a non-legacy and both were equally liked, I'd be all for the legacy gettiing the bid. No one is saying that legacies should not be given any sort of special consideration, but to say that "nepotism should be encouraged" and legacies should be given even more preferential treatment isn't right, either.

Is this really true of anyone's group? It sounds to me like the chapter was just off the ball, not that it's no longer something that chapters do. I think that a chapter should definitely call the sister if they drop a legacy. I would never let any of the chapters I deal with not call, it's unfair to both the sister and the legacy.

This is from Tri Delta's website:

In an effort to protect the privacy and feelings of a Tri Delta legacy, the Fraternity asks that no phone inquiries questioning the status of a legacy during recruitment be made to chapter members, advisors or alumnae. Likewise, the families should not expect to receive such calls. This policy leaves the legacy the right to say and do whatever she chooses about the invitations she does or does not receive.

I'm not sure if that includes bid day or if it's just the rest of rush.

With the new release policies, this has seemed to be the norm the past few years. As I have been saying, almost every legacy I know who has rushed at a big school lately has been cut by her legacy chapter AND many if not all of the others within 2 parties. It's like they're saying, "She'll surely go ABC so let's go ahead and cut her now since we have to cut so many."

I discussed this with someone at NPC and she didn't think this was happening. I doubt that anyone keeps records on this kind of thing and feel that she has no idea of what's going on. She said that in her experience, chapters try to steal legacies from each other. While it may have been true at her school and very well may be at others, it's not happening here in the Southeast. With the new cut figures, the last thing a strong chapter is going to bother with is copping someone else's legacy.

Sorry for the double post, I just saw this. One of my daughters rushed last fall and was a double legacy to one group. It seemed like they couldn't cut her fast enough and her sisters never received a call. Furthermore, when they called the chapter to see why no one had called, the president was quite rude and said that her chapter could pick whomever they wanted and that my other daughters should just suck it up. Then they got an email from the chapter advisor that pretty much reiterated what the president said.

Were you a KKG legacy?

From the Alpha Gam Legacy Introduction Form:

• The Fraternity expects all collegiate chapters to give serious consideration to each legacy out of courtesy to her AGD relative and encourages pledging our legacies. However, since chapters choose their own members, they are not required to offer a bid to the legacy.
• A legacy must be invited back to the first round of invitational events.
• If a legacy is released by the chapter, an advisor must telephone her AGD relative and notify her of this decision.

I like how my organization practices "courtesy" and "consideration" rather than NEPOTISM, as was earlier suggested.

No, but we never cut anyone who was. We also gave extra consideration to all Greek legacies.

My biological sister ended up being my Kappa sister although at a different chapter. It might sound trite but it did bring us even closer.

Nepotism may be too harsh a word but I am all for it.

Both my undergraduate chapter and the chapter I advise cut legacies if they feel they're not a good fit.

BUT, I will encourage the chapter I advise, if the legacy is on the line (she's a little more shy/quiet, but fits the GPA requirements, etc...), if possible, it's nice to give her one more day to give different women the chance to talk to her and see if she will open up. Ultimately, that choice is up to the chapter, though.

Overall, I would say legacies maybe make up about 1/3 of the women who go through recruitment at the school, so having too many is never an issue.

Legacy
 

Without going into specifics...

Phi Mu has a policy to protect the "privacy" of the potential new member who is a legacy....in either regard, receiving or not...invitations to further parties and ultimately, a bid.

The women who had legacy daughters in our chapter must have been very on the ball, compared to some of these scenarios! I honestly don't know if my chapter still does this, but when we have Founders Day, legacies are encouraged to attend - especially if they're going to attend Pitt. I can remember seeing sisters old enough to be my mother, busily filling out rec forms for each other's daughters!

But, in this case, we ALSO got a preview on the legacies. In the past five years, I can say that I know of one legacy that the chapter said, "No way, no how, she's obnoxious!" and at least four who ended up being initiated, with their mothers or sisters there.

As a former Rec Chairman, I can see NO EXCUSE for not contacting the relative of a legacy about to be released! Again, this could have changed, but we needed to call our PD to release an in-house legacy, and Executive Office for a multigenerational one, but except in one case, we still could release them.

Back to the "obnoxious legacy": I knew her mother, so when I heard she was being cut, I asked if I could call her mother to break it to her. I thought that was better than a stranger, and I could honestly say, "Peg, she just doesn't look happy here." Plus, she really was obnoxious!! Love her mother, but... :rolleyes:

Hi, I'm from a non NPC organization. Actually, we are under NALFO (National Association of Latino Fraternal Organizations). And a lot of orgs under NALFO (including mine) don't rush. We have events, we talk to PNMs, we act like regular people around them. We don't do pref parties. It's a whole different world when it comes to recruitment...actually, my org doesn't "recruit". We don't do these things because then it makes it seem like WE are choosing ABC girl and not MNO girl. Instead we prefer for PNMs to come to us. Approach us and then we and the PNM take it from there. Wow, how do you get to know the PNM if you can't interact with them? i feel it's better to interact because atleast when it comes time to say, "I want this org" or "we want you" or not, it's not soooo devastating because somewhere throughout your interactions, you realized which way you wanted to go...and not through pref parties, not through invite-only events...that's only my opinion, not my org's, and just in case, i am not trying to play anyone or their respective org.

Okay, about legacies. I'm going to try not to be redundant, restating what others have said. My org, Hermandad de Sigma Iota Alpha, Inc. is so new that we don't have any daughter legacies. We are only 15 years old with our oldest member...a founder of course, being around 35-37. We do have a lot of sister/cousin legacies. In fact, in my chapter Alpha Alpha, we have two bio sisters. We acknowledge the fact that the PNM is a legacy but in all, that doesn't affect our judgement. Honestly, if my little sister went to a school that had SIAs and wanted to join or she wanted to bring SIA on campus, I would raise my brows. Great girl, not SIA material. It's really a matter of both the org and the potential asking "What can you do for me" and "What can I do for you"?

We've had cases where sister legacies and cousin legs went to other orgs...hey, no big deal.

I understand that this happens all the time. One of the chapters I've advised for had never heard of calling the sister until I told them about it. But I just thought it was the policy of every org to call. Maybe not, since the chapter advisor at this sorority you're mentioning backed up the president. I just wonder if she was misinformed or trying to cover up that her chapter screwed up. I've personally never advised a chapter at the same time as when they dropped a legacy, but if it happens this year, I'm making sure that they do it. I'll be sitting right next to them as they make the call.

UCF does manually try to cover up the legacy info on the application when sending it out to the other sororities but, like adpiucf said, errors did happen. There were a few times where we'd get the clean copy that should have gone to another sorority.

At the same time, if the PNM had a sister that was in a sorority at UCF or even at another Florida school for that matter, we most likely knew what sorority she was a legacy too. UCF sororities are so big that we have girls from all parts of the state in the chapter. There were countless times when a girl would go through recruitment and someone in my chapter would say, "I graduated high school with her older sister who is an XYZ at Florida State."

It may also be the policy of the organization to not release ANY information. Not every organization calls legacy relations. Truthfully, I've never heard of such a thing. Pi Beta Phi chapters do not make such calls. They are not expected to, nor encouraged to do so. While recruitment in progress, any communication with alumnae is through advisors and alumnae clubs are reminded of this. When you can fill quota plus just with legacies as happens on some campus, the pressure on that chapter would be horrific if every mother was expecting a phone call when her daughter was released. What happens in membership selection is privileged information. If a mother wants to know why her daughter was released, a regional officer might be able to give her answers but unless it is a straightforward issue such as grades, it is unlikely there will be an answer that will satisfy the mother.

That is because you went to Carnegie Mellon and you didn't have 80 ookabillion legacies going through like at LSU or Ole Miss.

I can't imagine being the rush chair at one of those schools and having to decide which legacies - and oftentimes not just sorority legacies, CHAPTER legacies - to cut and which to keep because there just isn't room to take all of them. Cut the wrong one, you lose 100's of $$ in donations - keep the wrong one, and her sterling pedigree could be a completely "paper" thing only, which you won't find out until she does something hideously embarrassing. I know all the chapter votes but it comes back on the rush chair, and I feel for them - it's a lot of pressure for a college age woman to handle.

Before you say someone isn't doing enough, put yourself in their shoes.

Well that's fine, because you went to a campus where your chapter had that luxury. CMU is not a competitive rush and the sorority chapters are all on fairly equal footing.

And it's easy to support nepotism when you went to a school where there weren't many legacies. If you had rushed at a comnpetitive school, you likely wouldn't have gotten a bid to KKG, because you weren't a legacy. If you got cut from all the groups because you weren't a legacy, you'd be singing a different song.

You never cut anyone who was a legacy? I don't know if that's a good thing, in that you were just lucky to not have any nightmare legacies going through. A legacy just may not be a good fit for a chapter. They could be a risk management nightmare, for example. Giving every one of them a bid doesn't sound very "elite" to me.

Your chapter also wouldn't have had many legacies going through rush anyway. Pitt didn't either. It's easy to say, and actually carry through with, giving legacies additional consideration when you may only have a couple.

But when there's a chapter with more legacies going through than spots, giving even MORE consideration to legacies isn't really plausible. The legacy has to have more going for her than just her birthright

Extrapolating what has been written by some of the women who are experiencing today's recruitments as moms, it sounds as if it is more difficult if you are a legacy. Therefore, I may have had a better chance going through rush as a non-legacy at a competitive school which is the opposite of what you claim.

Not really.

Because sometimes if you are a legacy and don't put that down, then you get nothing at all. It's all in the way you want to gamble: do you 1) want to put down that you're a legacy and basically get stuck with that group (which of course is ok if you like them) or 2) don't put it down and risk getting cut by everyone, since the groups have to take care of as many legs as they can first.

What might work is to make sure that only the chapters the PNM is a legacy to would find that out. On their recruitment applications, they would not note that they're legacies but they would make sure through recs that their legacy chapter knows they are. Obviously, only PNMs on certain campuses would have to do this.

Let's say that my next daughters rush at a smaller college like Birmingham Southern. We would note that they are legacies to 4 of the 6 chapters there because at that campus, it might help. If they rush at colleges that have none of their legacy chapters, we would also put on the applications that they are quadruple legacies. But if they rush at an SEC school? Their legacy status will not be noted because we know, both from personal experience and that of at least 20 PNMs in recent years, that it will only hurt them. It will very likely cause them to be cut from numerous chapters right off and if their legacy chapters cut them too, they're sunk.

I'm sure this has been mentioned, but could a standard recruitment form be used, then, if the PNM was a legacy to (I'm thinking of the Carnation Nation here) PiPhi, AOII, ZTA, ChiO - each of those chapters would receive the form with an "L" on it?

So, every chapter gets the same form - name, address, GPA, etc, etc. - but on the form that goes to PiPhi, AOII, ZTA, and ChiO, an "L" will appear? It would then be up to the Mother/Sister/Grandmother to supply the rec DIRECTLY TO THE CHAPTER, to show how this woman is a legacy?

There are campuses where Panhellenic tries to limit legacy information only to the legacy chapters but I'm told it often fails. Somehow the information seems to get out.

I'm thinking of a girl I know who rushed at a medium-sized university last fall. She was an in-house legacy and had always been in her sister's shadow. She was an outstanding PNM in every way and she wanted to pledge a different chapter from her sister--to be on her own, for once, even though her parents had pressured her to attend her sister's school because it would make it easier all around.

She was cut by everybody except her legacy chapter and one of the much smaller groups right off. Recruitment was immediately not much fun...she only had 2 parties to go to while her dorm friends were attending a lot. She knew she'd be pledging her legacy group because the second group, which is really struggling, wasn't an option.

Now she's in her legacy group and is kind of happy but she's back in her sister's shadow.

Honeychile, I like your idea-- if only Panhellenics would go for it. Right now I think they use legacy info to decide who to cut early on since most groups have to cut so heavily.

I would think that since the recruitment registration is computerized by registering online, it would a simple thing to program. Many documents are generated on a need to know basis with additional information going to those "flagged" individuals.