Re: who are they?
 

Item the first: Big M, Big C.

Item the second: You're not familiar with the Knights of Columbus?

http://www.kofc.org/un/about/index.cfm

There does have to be a cut off point.

Hell, after learing about some of the orgs out there...they are little better than clubs with letters they use.

That is not what a fraternity is meant to be.

If you want to accept everyone, have little standards, and so forth-become a club. It's insulting to have some orgs call themselves Fraternities or sororities when they are anything but.

But who are you to say what a fraternity is meant to be or how it should work? Did you coin the word fraternity? Did any of us? If so, then we don't really have a right to say. These orgs aren't hurting you, they're not hurting anybody.

Re: mergers, absorptions, etc.
 

So, Kappa and Theta are real sororities, but KD, AOII, Alpha Xi Delta, and Phi Mu are just organizations? I guess they are real sororities because they have no weak chapters - they are uniformly excellent everywhere, they are housed everywhere, and are only at major universities?

By the way, I already showered today, but the stench of this makes me want to shower again.

Re: Re: mergers, absorptions, etc.
 

Each of the groups he's listed have more than 100 chapters, I think all might be 120+, which puts them on the larger end

Re: Re: mergers, absorptions, etc.
 

Yes I guess we aren't real! The last time I checked all four of these sororities (women's fraternities) have chapters at major universities such as The University of Alabama, The University of Tennessee, University of Mississippi, Cal Berkely, Iowa, Illinois, Florida, etc...you get my point...anyway, who would have thought we weren't considered "real" organizations....I guess we are just pretend.

P.S. Wasn't Phi Mu one of the first sororities for women, founded in 1852? Alpha Xi Delta was founded in 1873 I believe and KD and AOII in 1897. Not that age matters but gosh we do have long histories at major universities. Also, did you know that Phi Mu, KD, and AOII have some of the bigger chapters in the country at SEC schools like Ole Miss, UGA, Tenneesee, Alabama....but what am I thinking, the South probably doesn't count either....

(Thinking to myself, AOII is just a figment of my imagination, something I dreamed up back in the fall of 1996....)

Re: mergers, absorptions, etc.
 

Please come correct, THETA NU XI is NOT an "outfit". We are, and always have been a sorority!!! Please do not speak of what you don't know.

And the last time I checked, no one was looking for Erik P Conrad's seal of approval!

I think they are diluting the meaning of the word.

Fraternities and sororities are for the exceptional. If you read some of the threads in the chapter operations or rush forum it's pretty clear that some national fraternities are more about getting more numbers and expanding.

Four rushes a year and expanding to community colleges etc...It's hard to respect orgs that do that.

I am not saying that only national frats/sors that have 100+ chapters all strong are the only good ones. But I do think that we need some steps in the other direction.

There's a difference between continuous recruitment and four rushes a year - I haven't heard anyone speak about the latter, link please.

As far as community colleges, NO NPC groups have any plans to expand there - they're not permitted to. There's a diff between commuter colleges and community colleges. If there's an NIC fraternity that has community college chapters, please name names, because I'd wager the majority of the people on here don't agree with that.

Still, though, what's wrong with groups (provided they are not in councils, etc., which prevent them from doing so) being at 2-year schools, or having lots of rushes, or being non-collegiate at all, and still going by fraternity or sorority? I mean, really ...? The names "fraternity" and "sorority" aren't trademarked.

See This Thread

kddani probably had the best reason in that thread:

I hate to sound like a broken record because I end up trying to make this point often, but don't many of our organizations have parts of their motto/constitution about "betterment"
improvement, furtherment, of men/women? In that respect, I think that only intiating the "perfect" is sort of counterproductive. I know I didn't come to Tau Delta as the person I am today, and it is through the leadership and challenges of my sorority that I have become who I am. I think that those who didn't cure cancer before the age of 18 have just as much to gain, if not more, than your perfect initiate.

It's in there somewhere.

So, everyone gets a nose out of joint when Hens Clubs are mentioned!

How damn silly!

He was not refering to Greek Social Organizations as We know them.

What are The Red Hatters? They are not a Greek Organization, they are a Club. There are many others like them.

What do they do? Well, they do many Charity Events just as We do and so do some of the others. They get together and talk, chat or what the heck ever.

Yes, there is a difference berween Social, Educational, Service, Organizaions. They have their ways of doing things, rules and regulations, joinging, ETC!

Alpha Phi Omega is a Greek Named Organization and is much different thatn The Greek Social Orgaizations.

I am belittleing them as You can see in My Sig. I am a APO, BU Chapter.

Quit being so thinned skin and -------! To no one in particular just ETAL!


WOW, I dont know of any BIG C and BIG M Greek Organizations either! Alas, Poor Friggen Me! :(


? Since when did Knights of Columbus become Greek Social type Organizations?

gosh
 

The sows have left the hog houses. My point, like Cora's, is
that we have diluted the concept of fraternity to such an extent that it now has little meaning.
And we have abandonded that special-ness we cherished.
And for you-all hell-bent to bitch, I'm sure you have few friends,
as you are so full of hate and rancor that you have no clue as to
what Fraternity is. You are plainly losers..yep, losers. The acrid
responses are revealing and you are sweating too much.

Erik, no one has stated the painfully obvious, which is that it's your own fraternity that has one of the worse reputations for colonizing anywhere.

And lots of those chapters are unhoused, at branch campuses, etc.

If you're unhappy with your fraternity's extension philosophy, I understand, but that doesn't mean you need to do something ridiculous like call the second oldest group in NPC an "organization" and imply they're not a real sorority. Or say that every Kappa and Theta chapter is perfect. One of the more frequent Kappa posters on here came from a chapter of 15. How do you explain that one?

I am very sure Erik knows about the short commings of His own Fraternity and laments the fact as true.

Is there any Greek Socal group on here or any place else that doesnt have the same problems?

Name Me One that hasnt had problems of Hazing or leaving a Campus!

He did not omit His as You so state, He doesnt have to belittle His everytime He makes a Post, He knows the problems and lets it be known. Do You?

So, dont come back and say I dont either about LXA as I am well aware of some of the problems and that doesnt make Me happy with some of My Chapters.

Have there been any of Your Chapters that have had problems or never left a campus?


:confused:

Oh, there was a listing that came out of the top 5 worst hazing Fraternitys and ones who were disciplined. I will not realate these as it will Piss off someone!:eek:

Back to the Original Post/Question!

Can Mergers actually Happen, Yes.

Dont ever think that they cannot.:)

Of course not. I never said there weren't.

I've been unhappy with some of our expansion decisions - I would wager members of EVERY group have.

But that's for me to take up with the people in charge of my org. I'm certainly not going to question what anyone else does in the way that Erik is doing. I mean, I could care less what TKE does, but for him to go off on unhoused, "street car college" chapters and act like it's everyone else who is causing the downfall of the Greek system when HIS OWN ORGANIZATION does the same thing is a little silly.

If the new "outfits" as they are called are as useless as Erik believes they are, they will die out or evolve into something else.

Re: gosh
 

:eek: I can't believe that you said that just because people have asked that you not refer to their organizations in such a disrespectful manner.



If you feel like YOUR fraternity has been diluted to this extent, then that is one thing (although I have a lot of respect for the mod that carries the TKE letters) -- I am thankful for the many of us who still cherish EVERY special moment of our bond, whether we are new members, initiated members, or alum members! It is sad that you don't cherish your fraternity in the same way.

Quote:

And for you-all hell-bent to bitch, I'm sure you have few friends, as you are so full of hate and rancor that you have no clue as to what Fraternity is. You are plainly losers..yep, losers. The acrid responses are revealing and you are sweating too much.

It is clear that you have lost all remaining respect from people on here that once could see some reasoning behind your posts. People asked that you not refer to their orgs in a disrespectful tone, and THIS is your reply?! Indeed... you (like some others on GC) need to look in a mirror to see the very definition of a loser. If you were 1/8th the fraternity man that you claim to be, this would not be your way of getting your point across. :mad:

So I do agree with You on this point. Does that Meet Your OKAY?

Erik, You were out of line on that post!

But there are some on here who no matter what you say now it will not be right.

Your are # 1 On The Sh*t list parade! 2nd only to hoosier. Well, maybe is 1st for a bit. Well a race to close to call at the moment!:D

The Knights of Columbus, a Catholic organization, function in the same manner as the fraternal organizations discussed by Mr. Conard.

I understand that logic isn't your strong suit, Mr. Earp, but this was not a big leap to make.

Well, Tom - at least when I agree with you on a point (see the thread in alum forum about the alum reality show), I can have the CLASS to say that I agree with you & that you are right on with your post. I don't have to be a smartass about it -- but that would be the difference between you & me, now wouldn't it. :rolleyes:

Yes, I am well aware of what Knights of Columbus are.

And Your pointed Response is Why?

I know what My Logic is, just what is Yours? Just chimming in .

Maybe the stick comment was correct to a certain extent.

What?

120, Earp.

I didn't mean that I thought that orgs currently at 4-yr schools should make an effort to expand to 2-yrs. But if other groups want to include both, or even just focus on 2-yrs, why can't they call themselves fraternities and sororities too?

I'm not saying, for example, that KD or ZPhiB or whichever org that restricts to 4 yrs, ought to expand. I agree that they probably shouldn't. But if org ABC or XYZ want to serve both communities, or the 2-yr community exclusively, more power to them.

The idea of not going to Jr. Colleges is not new.

LXA voted it down at the last G A.

Reasoning is that many people go to a Jr. College for two Years while others will transfer to a 4 Year College.

If they were a Member of a Greek Organization, it may not work out as While, maybe being a member of said Organization, there still has to be a vote on whether to accept them in the Local Chapter.

It may sound strange but each Chapter has a little different ambiance or stance for lack of a better word about it than those in other areas of the country.

I'm sorry, but - what? I honestly am not entirely sure what you are saying. I am not talking about LXA or any other GLO that is established as an org for 4 yr schools, as I said before. I am talking about if a NEW group wants to establish themselves as, for example, the XYZ fraternity for people at 2 yr schools. What's wrong with that? If letters are for life, it really shouldn't matter if they graduate in 2 years.

Vincennes University is a two-year school with GLOs. They have three locals and Pi Lambda Phi. Sigma Pi was founded there and was on campus until recently. (although according to the Sigma Pi website, it's still there.)

points of view
 

Well, certainly like to hear all points of view.
I was flabbergasted to hear the KC's mentioned as a fraternity.
It is almost a requirement to belong in some communities and in
others they function with the Shriners (I am a 30 yr member)
The Knights of Columbus is a religious organization, kinda thought
of as an answer to the Shrine. They do some good things, but I
really don't think they fit in the undegrad greek scene.
Yes, I can well understand why the greeks of today have problems. With such stellar leadership what else is there to say?
See you at the mall.

Erik's just a classic GLO elitist. Should Greek Life only be available to individuals in Ivy League, Big 12, Big 10, SEC, PAC-10 and Big East schools? I'm thinking no.

Being Greek was a hell of an experience for me at my regional-state-former-teachers-college-university. I would expect that the kids in smaller regional schools with 1-2 chapters are having a great experience as well. No one has chapters at Devry. No one has chapters at Junior Colleges (with maybe a handful of exceptions). I'm not sure what a "streetcar college" is, and if it's a college that opens up a regional branch in a shopping center, I seriously doubt they have rush events going on for the incoming 45 year old secretaries wanting to be court reporters.

But yeah -- considering where and how Erik's own organization has expanded, and where, I find such opinions to be almost funny coming from him.

-- Erik, we appreciate what you have done, but times have changed.

Re: points of view
 

You were discussing the Elks, Lions, Kiwanis, etc. You said you did not know of any catholic[sic] fraternal organizations. I pointed one out.

Re: Re: points of view
 

K of C is without question a fraternal organization. It's our (Catholics) answer to the Masons.

Re: Re: Re: points of view
 

Lo! Some correct information.

Re: Re: Re: Re: points of view
 

Yep.. higher-up KofC's get to wear feathered hats and brandish swords in church. That alone puts them ahead of the Masons.

I'm thinking yes. I know that will get people's panties in a bunch. Pledging at Harvard is different from pledging from Chico State. The newspapers seem to think so anyway.

The cutoff I suppose is arbitrary. There are diamonds in the rough everywhere. But I doubt many fraternities go looking for these diamonds when they set up in the lower tiered schools. "Good numbers? Not in the newspaper for breaking the law every day? Good for us!"

If 33girl is the only one with the balls to even hint at it, I'll say it straight up for Erik. Erik, why has TKE expanded into some of the least demanding/desireable schools? I of course have this gentleman on ignore but his answer may be of interest to others.

-Rudey

Rudey:

I went to a 'less than desirable' school (D-2). I ended up helping found my chapter there. It was a hell of an experience for me. I just can't conceive as to why so long as a chapter produces good donor (and several of us are well on our way) material that a national organization needs to construct flag pavilions, pay insurance, etc. why the hell not?

I won't try and pretend that we had the same experience as the guys at say Oklahoma or Oklahoma State, but was my experience good? Were there great parties? Hell yes. Were there beautiful women around all the time? Check. Do I have a lifelong membership to a brotherhood on which I have depended on and will continue to do so? Also check.

What is the utility in limiting where chapters expand so long as risk management principles are applied uniformly and effectively?

In defense of Erik:
 

I do not like the dilution of strong nationals and yes some fraternal organizations have been more selective or better at maintaining chapters. Just so I don't hurt anyone ones feelings I'll pick on DU my fraternity of which I am very proud.
Before WWII and to a lesser extent before the middle 1960's DU was very picky about colonizing. DU's list of chapters opened from 1850-1965 is awe inspiring. Since 1965 not as strong.
In 1971 DU went to a Jr. College, this chapter died a painful death in fact a lot of the less residential/more commuter oriented schools DU went to in the 1970's died quickly.
COMPARING ERAS:
LIST OF CHAPTERS INSTALLED BY DU 1919-1935
WESLEYAN 1919 revived chapter
KANSAS 1920
OREGON ST. 1922
VIRGINIA 1922
MISSOURI 1924
IOWA 1925
DARTMOUTH 1926
OKLAHOMA 1927
JOHNS HOPKINS 1928
UCLA 1929
MANITOBA 1929
WASH. AND LEE 1930
WESTERN ONTARIO 1931
WASH. ST.1933
OREGON 1934
ALBERTA 1935
BRTISH COLUMBIA 1935

DU 1971-1985

COLORADO ST 1971
DAYTON 1971
SOUTH DAKOTA 1971
SOUTHERN ILLINOIS 1971
TYLER JR. COLLEGE 1971
MARYLAND 1972
SW TEXAS 1972
HOUSTON 1973
UNC WILMINGTON 1974
W ILLINOIS 1974
ARKANSAS1975
SYRACUSE 1976- revived chapter
NC STATE 1977
BAYLOR 1978
MICH STATE 1979
LSU 1979
MASSACHUSETTS 1980
PENN 1980 -Revived chapter
SW MISSOURI 1981
VIRGINIA TECH 1981
SOUTH CAROLINA 1983
SAN JOSE ST.- Revived chapter
MCGILL -Revived chapter

Lets face it DU was not as selective in the 1970 's and many of those chapter's have died.
In 1967 DU had 80 active and 12 dead chapters now DU has 80 active and 70 dead chapters is DU better than it was in 1966 probably not, are all national fraternities or sororities equal,no, are mergers possible yes, will they happen ,probably, in the 1970's Phi Mu Delta almost merged with Delta Phi , this merger probably would have helped form one small strong national, in the 1980's Phi Sigma Epsilon did merge with Phi Sigma Kappa. I can think of two or three small nationals that would fit in well with DU will it happen, I don't know, should we crucify someone for telling the truth nope, some orgs are stronger some weaker its just the facts.
I had to add another comment , Is it fair to overexpand? Many schools with weaker Greek systems have many dead chapters ,is it fair to alumni to see a chapter fail however hard the members try because the chapter never should formed to begin with? A lot of commuter schools have many inactive chapters.
Better to go to fewer schools and work harder to build up the chapters than to overexpand and cheapen your fraternity.
Two comments on Erik:

Sows leaving the hog house comment thats rude stop it.

Hen house comment not near as bad: at my church one group of women has a club called Rens Hens named after a women who has been in the church 50 + years.

I know where you went Kevin. That's why I put my disclaimers in. But I don't believe most fraternities that expand to lower tier schools do so to find good guys, the diamonds in the rough, and do not apply uniform risk management principles (almost like uniformly insuring against suicide bombs in Baghdad and Savanah).

Now I can't say I've got metrics to your specific org or chapter. I am just looking at a system on the whole.

-Rudey

harrumph!
 

bollicks.