ohhh ok I have heard of it. I forgot it was a jewish fraternity. probably why I don't see them too much around here i guess.

yea... but the delta zeta chapter is not so jewish... after all, we are in miami...

Miami? Glad you enjoy it. Personally, I do my best not to venture into the "real Florida" below Jacksonville.

miami abides by its own norms and rules. i'd rather live in the northeast, but until i'm done w/ grad school... i'm stuck living in this limbo.

That settles it, me and you could not be friends...Thinking of all the nice places you pass/fly over traveling from the NE to Miami...

that's a damn shame. here i was hoping to find a real friend via the internet. [sigh]

I know its too bad. Thank God for eharmony right.

\


So you wouldn't let a girl have a shirt with your letters on them?

yup. you figured me out.

you're good. real gooooooooood.

Back in the dark ages of the 80's, I wore the letters of the fraternity where I was a little sister as often as I wore my own (but I think it was because I really liked the sweatshirt--you know how some sweatshirts just feel better than others--and my boyfriend, now husband was also in that house). We all had them, and we all wore them and it was no big deal. I believe that the only thing that an uninitiated member couldn't wear was the crest, and we couldn't have it on our little sister paddles either.

In my sorority, we weren't supposed to wear the letters until after initiation, so all of our pledge shirts had the words written out, and our first gift after initiation was usually something with the letters and crest.

This was 20 years ago, no clue what they do now--I don't think little sisters even exist anymore, do they?

We still have a bunch of old party tshirts with different greek letters on them, and we've let our kids wear them for 80's day, etc. for homecoming week. And I've seen the XYZ mom/dad stuff, but I really wouldn't feel comfortable wearing them at all....my daughter's campus doesn't have my house, so she is something else. I would wear my own letters before I would wear that, and so would my husband.

NuBlue&Blue, I pmed you. Please check your box! :)

sweethearts and lavaliers
 

This very thing came up last night. I was lavaliered in the early 80's and did marry my DTD :-) We have been happily married for 21 years. The subject came up because as the spouse of a chapter advisor, I told a lavaliered gf that she was not allowed to wear his letters. She was wearing his sweatshirt. She bristled quite loudly that she was lavaliered and that meant it was ok to wear his letters at any time and basically what nerve I had. To clarify if things have just changed that dramatically over the years, I also spoke to a family member who was womens panhel pres recently at her university. She said although it was not a concrete rule it was understood that it was a huge social faux pas to wear,(especially in public) letters that were not your own. Jewelry did not apply. Further, the brothers and sisters would have had a fit to see their letters so casually worn.

In my opinion, the charm on a necklace stood, and should still stand, as a sign of a committed relationship and a sign that the girl is spoken for so to speak. But this girl did not, nor have I to this day, earned the right to wear the letters of DTD. As a little sister, we had our own sweatshirts but "L'il Sis" was embroidered clearly down one sleeve. We also worked our tails off with the guys in philanthropy etc..

Whether you are pinned or lavaliered, you do not come before the fraternity, you are not a member of the fraternity, you do not have the right to learn the rituals, shake or secrets of that fraternity. In my opinion, unless guys or sorority girls as well, stress ownership and pride in the honor that being a Delt or whatever should stand for..they hurt their house and recruitment. What makes your house or group special and exclusive if anyone can wear your letters? Why bother rushing?

Post Script....
 

Having re-read this thread a few times, it seems to me that the whole subject of "Display of Symbols" should be addressed not by individual chapters or schools but by each national fraternity organization. Better yet, perhaps the Inter-Fraternity councils or National Pan-Hellenic could come up with one set guideline to be followed by all?

To clarify my previous post, we also had mixer t-shirts and sweatshirts for football etc...and that was viewed differently. If you were a girl wearing the shirt, you belonged to the sorority on your shirt and vice a versa for the fraternity. If you tried to get away with wearing letters that weren't your own, folks knew it and called you out for it big time especially at a party. Hey, you didn't pay for the beer and food after all. :D

I disagree with this.

While having NPC unanimous agreements regarding recruitment and membership-related issues are great, I don't think it'd be a good idea to have an umbrella organization dictate who can or cannot wear letters. That should be totally left up to the individual organization.

And btw, because I'm a nitpicker...if you're talking NPC, it's Panhellenic. Pan-Hellenic often refers to the Divine 9 -- the 9 historically Black Greek Lettered Organizations. It's funny how a - and H can totally mean something else.

I would not let anyone wear my letters, not even touch them. I was the one that earned my letters not them. When I crossed I learned that you never touch anyone elses letters, tikis, nothing like that because it meant disrespect. If you were a minority greek you would understand that but if you weren't and you touched someones letters it wasn't a big deal but if you did know about it some people would get mad if you touched their letters. To some people they don't care as much but you never know so you just don't do it.

When minority greeks say that they "earned" their letters, it def does not mean that they had to be hazed....it just means that they had a "meaningful" process....not making pledges bingedrink for weeks like some other greeks do...and also greeks say they earned their letters when they are paper. not saying im trying to offend anyone thats paper. what counts is how much you contribute to your chapter in the long run.

I am lavaliered and wear that necklace almost all the time...though sometimes switch it for my own. My boyfriend isn't terribly happy about this, but I don't feel right wearing them on the same chain. I try to treat his as well as I treat mine. They are his letters, not mine, and he was kind enough to give them to me as a gift to a) make me quit hinting and b)find a way to show people how he feels without spending an ungodly amount on a promise ring or something...which we both feel is stupid. I think the only time it is appropriate to wear a guy's letters are...a) if you are a sweetheart and were given specific sweetheart "gear" to wear b)if the letters are on a shirt that anyone could have purchased (formal, parties, philanthropy event) c) if you are lavaliered (or given a badge because you are a mother, wife, sister, etc.). Otherwise it's disrespectful. It isn't a huge problem on our campus, but it happens...it's not cool.

It isn't just minority or Divine 9 that feel like they earned their letters without being hazed...I wasn't hazed at all and I feel like I earn my letters every day that I work my butt off for them...which is almost every day. I think the main difference is that y'all probably do have a better "pledgeship" in that it seems minority greeks have the same respect for their organization as a whole right after their pledgeship that women in my chapter do maybe a year down the road (not all...but most, myself included, don't understand until they've grown up a bit). I think NPC gets a bad rap though. There are dedicated women in every chapter, people who bleed XYZ colors, and especially in the smaller chapters. I know I wouldn't consider myself paper, and won't after I graduate either...at the least I will pay alum dues and find a chapter wherever I end up...I hope to be a chapter advisor one day, though.

The no-touching rule is cool. I know we (and the fraternities) couldn't do it for all the shirts we sell and such...but I think it makes everyone then respect everyone else's letters all that much more. It makes sense, too. Random, but the thing that gets me the most is when organizations chalk the campus (not many NPCs do for the reason we don't...it's guaranteed that someone else will come along and write something nasty by the letters...but some of the guys and NPHC do)...I can't make myself walk over their letters, and the sidewalks aren't very big!

Wow, this surprises me on how strict a lot of people are on this. Our sweetheart this year was given a sweatshirt with stitched letters and "Sweetheart 2007" underneath it. He wears it, and it's cute. We love him!

As far as lavaliering goes..I was VERY surprised to see ThetaChiGuy being so upset about someone wearing his letters, since the QXs on our campus are very liberal with lavaliering here. One of our sisters got lavaliered after dating about five months, and she has letters from them. It's not uncommon.

Ohsass, I don't understand why it's okay for you to have a Lil Sis sweatshirt but not for a lavaliered woman to borrow a letters sweatshirt. Can you reason that out for me?

Personally I think there's a difference between a Sweetheart that the whole fraternity chooses and a woman who was lavaliered individually by a brother, whether or not the other brothers approve...the letters DO belong to all of them. My boyfriend lavaliered me, but Delta Chi did not...it was his individual choice, therefore it's not my right to wear a lettered sweatshirt, for instance.

This never stops being funny to me. You wouldn't "let" anyone touch your letters? What if in a crowded elevator somebody bumped into your tote bag with letters on it? You would throw down? :p

My boyfriend lavaliered me, and though I get along with all of his brothers, my necklace is the only TKE letters I wear. I have shirts with "Tau Kappa Epsilon" written out on them, but none with letters. I was told by a different brother, however, that I was allowed to wear stitched letters, but my boyfriend was not allowed to anymore, because he had "given" me his letters. I'm still not allowed to wear the crest, or know any secrets, ect (which is fine, because i'd never reveal mine). Another brother told me that my being lavaliered made the brothers think of me as "equal to a brother, no better, no worse, just our equal, and not just some girl" which made me feel very loved. It seems to vary by chapter and the guys in the chapter...

Yeah, cause I'm pretty sure "equal to a brother" wouldn't fly with the Deltas here, no matter whose girlfriend you are. Pikes are the only other ones I've seen lavalier around here and I don't get the impression they would consider a lavaliered girlfriend to be equal to a brother either. A brother's a brother, a girl is a girl...I feel the same way about boyfriends of our sisters, too. They aren't equal to a sister...they aren't just "some guy" either in a lot of cases. There's some we all know and love and they're kinda part of the family, but in the way a stray kitten is (not that I'm calling them a kitten or something...it's an analogy)...it's cute, you love it, but it isn't your sister. It's a cat.

Considering a girl to be equal to me looks like they wouldn't apply the "bros before hos" rule...and they always should. I was a "Delta Chi girl" before I started dating my boyfriend...they're my favorite people outside my sisters to hang out with, and I'll go to their parties before any other fraternity's, and if they needed help with something I wouldn't mind helping...but the only one of them that should see me as an equal is my boyfriend...and none of them but him are an equal to my sisters.

You really don't understand the difference? Seriously?

Exactly! There is a clear difference!

Fantastic, I see your point. So maybe the best way to explain this is that though I wore the letters, there was no question of my position in the eyes of the fraternity with "Lil Sis" prominently displayed down my sleeve in large letters. Therefore I was not wearing solely the letters without any other distinctions. There was no question of my position in regards to the Fraternity.

Another point that I've seen in this thread that I feel is a good one is that even pledges are not permitted to wear the letters. In my husband's case, their pledge t-shirts said "Delts" and not the letters until after initiation.

More food for thought, what if a girl wore a houses letters but was not lavaliered? What if a non-Greek college student was wearing a houses letters? Where is the line drawn? I think the point is that it is waaaay out of line to try to pass yourself off as a member of a group that you do not belong to nor have earned the right to claim affiliation to.

one more thought here...I was also lavaliered. I wore my necklace almost every day, it was small, not conspicuous and really only meant something to Greeks who understood the significance. The difference here is subtlety and respect.

Though I was a little sister, I also would not attend a joint function with another sorority at Delts out of respect for that sorority. Again, it gave the impression that you were trying to take a place that was not earned.

I was president of the Li'l Sisters and it was a rule I imparted that that was crashing. Though it wasn't a written fraternity rule, it would present an awkward situation for the Delts to explain. i.e.. "Oh, who is she? She's a little sister. Sure you don't mind them being here too?" The only exception was open parties or parties were Lil sisters were expressly invited.

My advisor husband is attending chapter tonight and plans to bring this up to "his boys". He is going to open it for discussion and follow their consensus. I will be sure to post their reply. By the way, I still have my lavalier and will be wearing it to our Founders Day Formal this weekend. Been a VERY long time since I've been invited to a Delt Formal ;-)

yes at our school, the point of being a sweetheart is that you are like a brother and so as in honor of that they name you their sweetheart and give you permission to wear their letters just like a brother (kinda like theyre own way of intiation)

So people try and touch your DST letters? They just come up and start rubbing on them? I don't let random people touch ME so I just don't see how this could be an issue.

You've never had anyone outside of your sorority try to pick up or handle an item, such as a letter shirt, a jacket, maybe even your pin, etc.? ("This is pretty, what does it mean?" "Ooh, I like this color!" "Hey, what is this book?")

The point is, for me, it is not okay for anyone outside of my sorority to handle certain items. If someone attempts to do so, I will correct them. I won't be rude about it (although if it is someone who should know better, I may be a little bit), but I'm not going to let someone be all over my things.

I didn't tell you about the time my former roommate had to move my lettered hoodie in order to get her Organic Chem book?

I was ready to bust a cap on that bitch.

I don't care if they do. It's not like they're putting on my shirt and trying to perp or anything...I carry a pink GPB water bottle and my friends fill it up for my all the time.

Clearly, a woman of exceptional taste. Congratulations to you and my Brother Delt.

Ohsass: That makes sense. But then would it be okay for a lavaliered woman to have "Girlfriend" or something written on the sleeve, or under letters?

I'm not trying to be controversial, just to see exactly what you feel is okay and not okay, so don't think I'm picking a fight!

So what if you're in a store that sells Greek stuff? Are the sales clerks not suppose to touch it front of you? They obviously stocked the items, so do you have to see it to be offended? I don't get it. Please explain this to me and no I'm not trying to be a smart ass.

Those aren't anyone's personal belongings yet, and, as you said, it's their job to do so. I really don't see that as the same thing. What I am talking about is for both of my orgs, I have items that I would consider it rude for anyone not a part of the sorority to handle (my letter jacket, my paddle, my pins, my pledge book (for OPhiA), etc.). I'm not saying that everyone has to feel this way, but to me, I would have a problem with it.

I go to a school with a really small Greek system which might account for the loose policy of wearing letters. Girls with fraternity boyfriends often wear their letters- both their Greek letters and the letters spelled out. Although lavialering is not popular at my campus. Men only wear sorority letters on shirts where there is more than one organization-- like our Greek homecoming t-shirts and Greek Week t-shirts. Our girls are allowed to wear our letters right after the pledging ceremony but they often don't have them until Mom's Night (our version of big lis/lil sis is moms & daughters, it's easier to keep track of families). Our girls also have a lot of frat shirts even when they haven't dated a member of the frat. They may have been given to an older member and was then passed down or taken from a frat house back in the day when they stole stuff from each other a lot. We especially have a lot of TKE letters floating around.

this is complicated isn't it? Well, let's see, I'd say no, with one exception....if the fraternity as a whole has agreed that it is something they give to all girls who are lavaliered. The difference is that the whole fraternity is giving their approval as in a sweetheart- see the difference?

Not a problem, I don't ruffle easily :-) So let's see, I'd say my answer is no with one exception and this is the key here...only if the whole fraternity has agreed to make it a practice and it was officially approved. It comes back down to one individual taking it upon themselves to decide what the whole group should accept with no say in the matter.

Outcome of chapter mtg....
 

Ok - so Delt Hubby brought up the entire discussion of who can wear letters, aside from the stated policy regarding pledges it was agreed that:

1) event/fundraiser t-shirts - always ok whether greek or non-greek i.e. "DTD Relay for Life"

2) Sweetheart and Lil Sis - ok but with clear prominent designation stating "Sweetheart" or "Lil Sis" (point being whole fraternity voted on their status)

3) lavaliered or pinned - necklace/pin ok, but his letters on official Delt clothing meant for brothers - no way (includes his shirts or buying them herself at a Greek store)

Do you mean biological little sister (such as TKE has badges for mothers and bio sisters)? There's no such thing as Fraternity little sisters any more.