I completely with you here! I can see no reason why APO should be on either the IFC or NPC if there is an all-greek council.

It seems to me that IFC and NPC should be reserved for the single-sex organizations.

Also, it doesn't really matter how "sociable" an APO chapter is... They are still considered a "service fraternity" right? So, again I don't understand why they would be on the same council as the specifically social orgs.

APO main purpose is service, but we ARE a fraternity, and have a social aspect (we call it 'fellowship').

However, that said, even our National Organization doesn't feel that our chapters should be part of IFC or inter-greek councils at schools. In most cases, we are part of inter-club councils, along with the various professional GLOs.

Without knowing more of this situation, I think it more likely that you have a school who has decided that APO should be part of the IFC because they are a GLOs, and are not seeing the difference between social and non-social GLOs. (school policies will 'trump' our National policies, btw).

I think FSUZeta has pinned the importance of this. This is not about the 'greekness' of APO. No one has really questioned that. The issue, to me anyway, is over the single-sex status' of the other orgs on campus. If an all greek council exists, that seems like a more appropriate location for APO to be. I feel that single-sex glos need to do everything we can to maintain that right in the eyes of the federal government. If EVERY IFC fraternity represented on your campus has talked to their HQ and the IFC HQ and EVERYONE is ok with it, fine. But only if the lawyers have vetted the issue do I think that APO should be on IFC.

I don't think we should be allowing the single sex status to be hazy. IFC governs ALL MALE orgs, I really feel like APO shouldn't be there.

I know nothing about APO rules, but I think there should be consideration if this could in anyway affect single-sex status'.

eta: I would personally try to see if an arrangement could be worked out with the school to change the requirement for them to be on IFC. Greek Council should count, but maybe not.

So I wasn't actually going to get involved with this but since it's about me I feel that I should atleast get my say.

1. Rowan University Says that APO must fall under the IGC(intergreek council) and the IFC(interFraternity council) There is no arguing with this. Rowan is god. If we want to be on campus we do this. If we must submit to the rules of these organizations and pay dues to them then WHY THE HELL CAN'T WE HAVE AN ACTIVE PART IN THEM?

2. I was elected, by over 50% majority in the last election to be the president.

3. I work my ass off for this organization. I am the first IFC president in Rowan's history to put a sanctions chart into place. The first person to enforce the bylaws and use the sanctions. The first one to organize a a seminar to teach greeks about the Laws of the state of New Jersey and throwing Parties. The first one to try and organize classes to teach the fraternity brothers how to safely handle problems at parties..and I've only been in office since September.
4. Why can't I hold the position if I am a brother in a fraternity? Brotherhood means something to me. More so than the person who pledges a social organization to drink beer and party..the person who never shows up again once they get their letters.

5.I won this position in a open election. I was the most qualified Fraternity brother who ran for the position. Fraternity brothers only were able to vote and they did..FOR ME.No one has once questioned my ability, only my gender. I am a woman. I have a fiance. I wear dresses. I date men. So what? I work hard. I'm fair. I try to do things for all fraternities on campus. I follow my bylaws of the IFC.
THE IFC never says Male only. It says Fraternity Only. We're a fraternity. Deal with it. If their lawyers don't like it let them get off of this campus because the school has final say, not an organization. They get their lawyers to pitch a fit and I'll garuntee that the person who is incharge of greek life on my campus will tell them to get off this campus and take their charter.
My school says to be on our campus we must fall under these umbrella groups so should we just shut our mouths and have no say in the groups which are given power over us?
I will not go quietly into the night. If my oranization, my BROTHERHOOD, Alpha Phi Omega must pay these dues, and they much fall under the IFC rules. If we must be judges for greek cup points against other fratnerties..Then we have ever right to participate in the Greek Political system.
At the risk of sounding like a bitch if you don't like..Tough Shit. It's mostly a resident school. Someone said we're a commuter school. Not true. I don't critize you for wanting to be in a same sex organization, but I am proud to call these men and women my brother.
I like my position. I work hard at it. I am fair. I am a BROTHER in a service fraternity. I follow my university's rules. Deal with it, and if it really bothers you then every night before you get into bed thank god that you're closed little mind goes to a school where APO is a club or is only under the all Greek council and so you don't have to compete with people who might be better than you. I am keeping with my national ideals. i am working to make this world a better place, if only a small part of it. I am volunteering my self to my campus, service with out benefit, I am just trying to help everyone. I serve the fraternity brothers of Rowan University. I give them my time, my energy, my leadership experiance, and most of all my heart to help them run efficiently. To try and help them grow, and to help them with the school.

If you think that I'm wrong; I don't care. If you don't like; I don't care. All I really have to say is I wont this election. i work hard, and I stand on my record.
-Jacquelynn Marino
Rowan University
InterFraternity Council President.

you go girl!!

i don't think anyone thinks that you did anything wrong-you are merely complying with the school, ran for an office and were elected.

our point is that the school is wrong in requiring a coed organization to belong to an all male council or an all female council. as discussed earlier, this might undermine fraternities and sororities desires to stay single sex, if someone chose to challenge it.

1) You're caring far too much about people's opinion over the internet.

2) If your school is requiring you to be a part of these councils, then youre playing by the rules, and while I think there is something inherently wrong about the rules, I can't blame you for that. Great example of hating the game, not the playa.

3) Congratulations on your accomplishments.

4) #1 lesson of Greek Chat, every campus is very different. People very often forget that, even those of us who have been here a long time.

5) This arguement hits on a far bigger issue than just your presidency. There have been many massive threads on whether service organizations such as APO should even be considered "real" greeks. What it has often come down to is what is it like on your campus. Again that is something that varies. At my campus, and many other large state schools (and even a lot of small private ones), groups like APO are no more greek than the pre-med club, or the mock trial team. Therefore it seems ridiculous to me that youre required to be a part of any sort of inter-greek council. But that's neither here nor there. As I've said, your campus has a much different setup than mine.

6) This arguement also hits on the issue of gender, and how single gender entities function in this time of political correctness and discrimination lawsuits, sexual harrassment and so on and so forth. People are not mad at you for running for IFC president, but more the idea of a women leading a group that is supposed to be an all-male governing body...

7)Dont' get started with the fraternity nomenclature. Most sororities are officially fraternities, so that point is moot.

8)Finally, personally, I don't think it's right for you to be in a position of power over men's social fraternities. The issues that they deal with are much different than the ones sororities have to deal with, which are both different than the issues your chapter, being co-ed, has to deal with. How different? Well on your campus, they may actually be pretty similar, but your campus seems to be an exception, but on many other campuses, like mine, you as a member of APO and a woman could never be as an effective an advocate for the positions of fraternities as a member of a men's social fraternity.

The title of the thread and the original post ASKED for opinions. If you didn't want to hear opinions, perhaps your friend should not have asked for them. And i'm sure you must've had some idea when you ran for IFC president what sort of opposition you may face.

Personally, I agree with many of the above posters. Betarulz! summed it up pretty nicely.

Re: APO/FIT?
 

Alpha Phi Omega takes men and women, not boys and girls.

I'm sorry that you're feeling personally attacked by this thread, Jacquelynn. I don't think anybody here intended that. We, as single gender organizations, hear a lot from our Headquarters and governing boards about having to protect our single gender status. We have had new rules about where men are allowed to be in a chapter house and NPCs and NICs got rid of little sister and little brother organizations in order to keep this status. It HAS been a fight and we are reminded of that constantly. So, it's not personal, it's just that we get concerned when that issue comes up. It would be a fair legal argument against us remaining as single gender organizations. That's not your fault, but it's our reality and our concern. That said, we'd probably have a valid argument against this too, because the Divine 9 are all in one council together despite being organizations for opposite genders, so maybe it wouldn't be a big deal. I'm certainly not an expert on Title IX, but I do know that we are warned against doing certain things to maintain our status.

I do wonder how another issue is handled though. Again, this isn't an attack, it's a quest for information. I know there are numerous people who are members of APO and NPC or IFC groups. Most NPC and IFCs require that the leadership of the councils rotate among the various GLOs which are members. In that case, what would happen if a member who was in a NIC fraternity and also in APO ran for President? Which org would they represent in that situation and how would that effect the rotations? Would it count as both? Would they have to declare a primary membership of some sort? It seems like APO could end up leading IFC always, because they can have members in every organization on the IFC. Are there mechanisms in place to handle this possibility?

Dee

Actually I'm not offended. I don't care what people I've never met think of me. My best friend posted this and then told me after the fact. That's neither here nor there, I am not mad.
What i felt needed a response was the attack of me as not having a right to do this. My school doesn't sort groups according to if all their members posses a vagina or penis. It groups them by what they are. Ethnic groups. Sororities. Fraternities. I am in a fraternity. Some people seem to forget that brotherhood isn't about being a man, but about honoring that bond. Fighting for each other. Loving each other so much you are honest. Good times and bad. My brothers will be the people who stand up at my wedding for me. They will be my kids godparents. They will be my friends for life. Will your brothers?
Greek Life at my school falls under the Dean of Student's. He says we have to, in order to take a pledge class, have a rush and iniate members fall under the umbrella groups of IFC and IGC.
My point was if APO is forced to pay dues to these groups and follow their bylaws then why can we be involved in the politics of it? If you think your national would have an issue then by all means I urge you to write to them and have them talk to my school. Yes, I know most schools group us as a club. I'm not blind to that fact. My school(with a thriving greek population of almost 1000 people out of a 10,000 or so students)does. Hell, if your fraternity has a house on my campus why not contact their president to see how they feel about it? I'm confidant that most will honestly not care. I'm not saying to Delta Chi, Let women in. Nor am I saying to DZ, take men. You're same sex. Good for you. I am not. I follow the bylaws set before me. I do my job. If you honestly care so much to get as worked up as this I feel bad for you.

Most people in Co-ed's don't honestly care about same sex groups. They weren't for us. I don't want to be a brother in any of the other 8 fraternities on my campus. They are old and established houses. They aren't for me. My point is I am a fraternity BROTHER. I have BROTHERS. I believe in the meaning of BROTHERHOOD. I would do anything for these people. Theyare my best friends. We work hard. We have goals like any other organization. We don't want to be you, but if we have to be in the same group we might as well have the option to compete. I didn't want to be a sister and get turned down(as one private message said..Yeah..) I only rushed Alpha Phi Omega. What is wrong with work with the fraternities? I have an eboard of 4 other members, all from social organizations. we work together. I'm not challenging your right to remain same sex. I am saying that as a fraternity, full of brothers that we bear consideration.

Hey Jackiepie, I don't know how accurate this statement is as many APO brothers are also members of single sex groups. I'm your brother (Mu Mu '97) and also a member of Theta Nu Xi Multicultural Sorority, Inc. There are MANY people on GC that are members of APO and another org.

Fraternities only? There are many sororities that are actually women's fraternities.

Listen. This thread, as previously stated, asked for opinions. We have given them in a very polite manner. Yes, we do worry about our legal status and were curious to the electoral process of your IFC. I would like to ask you not to question our loyalty and understanding of brother/sisterhood. At no point has anyone suggested that you do not understand the concept of brotherhood or the loyalty of your brothers to you. The men and women who post on GC understand brother/sisterhood and they respect other organizations, please give us that respect too.

Anyhow, the difference with NPHC, to me, is that the body does not presume to work with single sex orgs, it is a co-ed body. NPC and IFC expressly state that they are for women's and men's org respectively. It seems like the purpose would have to play a part.

Your Dean of Students needs to have his ass kicked. I applaud you, and I totally agree that if you have to pay the dues, your should have an active part in it. But, as everyone else has said, i dotn think it's an attack on YOU, i think it's an attack on teh fact that the Dean is on a power trip, and forcing you guys to be a part of it.

I really wonder how many of the other fraternities national HQ knows about this situation. I HATE how a school has so much freakin power. The power to threaten to kick someone off campus because they dont like the national organizations rules and policies - and part of me thinks that if those other fraternities HQ tried to fight him on it, that it's be a total mess.

Good luck to you.

Yes. Your Dean of Students is an asshat.

The opinions that everyone expressed had absolutely, totally, NOTHING to do with you as a person - or as a female - they were expressed toward "APO Member."

However, reading this quote DOES make me question your fitness for the position.

I'm glad it means something to you, but putting others down is not the way to prove your fitness for the position. Especially if you have brothers who are in social organizations.

And now I'm going to go someplace quiet and calm, like the toast song thread.

I am in Sigma Delta Tau and APO....many people I know are in both.

When you talk about your group, do you say "my sorority" or "My womans fraternity"....semantics....many creeds and by-laws call themselves "womans fraternity", but the members call it a sorority

Her point is that just because something is called a "fraternity", be it a sorority, a service fraternity or an honorary, doesn't mean it should automatically be on the InterFraternity Council.

Can someone explain to me why female members of APO are referred to as brothers?

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...threadid=48391

interesting thread
 

Alpha Phi Omega is so much different from national social fraternities and sororities. I think it is because, for the most part, the members are able to create our own chapter policies.

While we do have national bylaws, a board of directors and sectional and regional governing bodies, each individual chapter is allowed to function on its own. Because we have that kind of governing process, really the active members are allowed to dictate what happens in their respective chapters with relatively little outside influence. We don't have traveling consultants to come check up on us probably unless the chapter is facing serious charges.

So you have some Alpha Phi Omega chapters that look and act like social sororities or social fraternities (even at co-ed campuses). Some function like clubs, but you can't really apply the same label to Alpha Phi Omega across the board.

Sometimes I feel like Alpha Phi Omega is comprised by a bunch of locals that fall under one national body.

But as campus dynamics change, so do GLOs. Especially ours.

(Incidentally, while there are many alums who have a lot of respect for Alpha Phi Omega nationally, I bet that the majority hold in higher regards the chapter that they were a member of in undergrad.)

I have heard everything from sib/sibling, sister, brothersister, etc.

Some people care, but I don't get caught up in it. Personally in undergrad. though, I wouldn't call a female member "brother." But that is my choice.

I called all my brothers "brother" regardless of gender while in my undergraduate chapter. :)

Re: interesting thread
 

Very well said. The problem is that we ARE labeled across the board and some people don't seem to understand that, like any organization, it can differ from campus to campus. I don't like the blanket labels that are placed on us.

Re: Re: interesting thread
 

While it's fine for every chapter to have its own identity, I think that going too far in that direction places the identity of the national group in jeopardy.

IMO, if you mention Alpha Phi Omega to someone on a campus and their first thought is not "service" then that chapter is doing something wrong. The service component should always be first and foremost.

Re: Re: Re: interesting thread
 

AMEN!

That is probably true, and to some extent, I agree with it. However, I don't think, practically speaking, our chapters are going to change anytime soon and act cohesively under the same identity.

Honestly, IMO, there is no reason for it. Our chapters are responsible with their "power." The chapters aren't facing a lot of hazing or discrimination charges, so I think it works fine the way it is.

If service is still getting done, but students don't like membership policies, Alpha Phi Omega is not the only service-oriented organization on campus anymore.

Your point is much easier to understand as an alumna. But if I were still an active, I wouldn't want things to change.

Re: Re: interesting thread
 

Granted that each Chapter is going to be different, but the common label comes from what and why it was started.

Service or Social. Founded under the principle of Being a Service Organization following the Boy Scout Tradition. It has since become Co-Ed many years ago and will stay the same.

Remember, certain Social GLOs started under different Flags. Say Farm House and AGR.

Unless APO has changed its position since I was an Active Member, it is and will never be known as a Socal Organization and this has nothing to do with any Chapter or Campi.

While I do not know the Ex. Director personaly, I know of Him and I will limit My comment to only that.

Policies...
 

33Girl, sorry I didn't find this thread sooner. Miss checking Greekchat for one day and everything goes to heck in a handbasket. :)

I think the other APO brothers on here have well covered it. Only question I have is whether being on the IFC (and or IGC) means that people are not allowed to be both APO brothers and brothers of a social fraternity at Rowan.

Were I working to extend to a campus, I would definitely have staffers help the Colonists (Petitioners) convince the Dean of Students that APO doesn't belong on the IFC, but if Dean of Students insist, then you live with it.

Some of the larger state schools have a plethora of greek councils. I've seen IFC, NPC, NPHC, ethnic non-NPHC (which includes both black that aren't NPHC, hispanic and asian) and in some cases a complete *other* category that takes APO, GSS, KKY, TBS (Band Fraternity and Sorority) and anyone else that doesn't fit into one of the earlier categories.

Personally, I'm most comfortable with APO on a service council with Habitat, Circle K , Alternative Spring Break and similar groups. However YMMV for your APO chapter.

Randy

Re: Policies...
 

That is interesting about Deans of Student expect this as it is written in each Code of all of the GLOs overall Organizations.

I dont rally beleive that They In their infinite Wisdom can dictate to any National Organization.

Each Organization has its own agenda and is set out in Their By Laws

There art a definte destinctions among all of the "Grek Letter" Organizations isnt there?

Oh, and Yes there can be cross overs that are built in about Social, Proffesional, Service Groups about being Members.

What made the DoS put them (arbitrarily) under IFC? They are co-ed so really they could have gone under NPC. However, THAT never would have happened because NPC would have cared way too much to allow it. Plus NPC has policies outlining who can and can't be full members of a college panhellenic.

You know a thought occurred to me as I was reading some of Jackie's comments.

What better way for the University to force change in the social fraternities than to have a member of a non-social fraternity leading the governing body? It smacks of University interference all the way. The University couldn't get the social fraternities to do what they wanted them to do so they brought in an outside group to do it for them. And yes, that's what APO is to IFC.

If I was an advisor on that campus I'd be screaming right now...

Question: do APO chapters carry insurance policies? If they're having mixers and socials and stuff they certainly should.

Actually for a few years we were unheard. I was the first brother to run for any type of umbrella group position on campus. The school isn't doing this to hurt socials. They school has tigher rules in place than the IGC, IFC, and PanHal groups on my campus. What I'm trying to do is volunteer myself in service to the greeks on my campus to help us all show Rowan that we are perfectly able to self govern. Once we have done that, our school(which is suffering from major greek rights losses at the moment( will hopefully back off. When we have organizations being kicked off campus for horrible acts of hazing, parties where kids are hospitalized, problems with fighting between organizations that end with massive amounts of hurt kids in the ER and cops being called, than it's obvious that groups are running wild and need the reins tighted.

Brothers at my school are able to join another group on campus. THe problem is most groups will not take them. In keeping with the boyscout traditions I am doing my duty. All greeks are striving towards self governing and greek rights at rowan, the problem is that strong undergraduate leaders haven't stepped up in the past. This year I am but one of a group of people striving to improve the greek life on my campus. The IGC president cuts himself in so many different ways that i feel badly for him, because he gives his whole self over to the pursuit of Greek life and balance between school and student. The woman in charge of PanHal works her butt off for the sisters on my campus, drawing no distinction between any group. I do my very best for all the Fraternities of Rowan University.
Keep in mind there is no rotation of organizational leadership for the IFC, it's an open election every year which each fraternity votes for whom they want to lead them. They didn't have a problem with an APO doing it.

33girl, thanks for the link. This quote is interesting:

While some female Brothers may not like the term (because they are looking at it as a 'gender term'), many perfer to keep it as it means ALL members, male and female, are addressed with the same term and thus we are all on the same level. Using separate terms for male and female members would destroy that feeling.

I don't understand how referring to people as something other than what they are promotes unity -- which is what I think this person was saying. Women and men are different, and I don't understand how acknowledging that indicates that people aren't on the same level.

Would you refer to non-white members as white, because to differentiate would mean that people aren't on the same level? I know that doesn't have the same historical context (or does it?) but I think it's similar.

thanks
 

Been kinda interesting to learn about all these new groups; in
many ways the idea of fraternity has been watered down a bit,
but on the other hand, the makeup of the higher education scene
has changed a lot, too. Alpha Phi Omega will always be the Boy
Scout fraternity, for me anyway; I cannot figure out by its new
looseness the purpose for its existence other than a shingle and
greek letters. I guess everyone in college oughta have a chance
to belong to something, collegiate or not, and with this mindset, we have indeed accomplished that.
In mentioning fraternities who began with a rather narrow or a
specific purpose, add Triangle, Theta Xi, Delta Chi, Acacia, plus
the Zebes, AEPi, Phi Kappa Theta, et al. And do we dare mention the mormon groups with several chapters of the same outfit on one campus, like BYU. Perhaps it was due to the competiition and desire to survive that evoked the wider audience. And Phi Alpha Delta operates as a social on some campi although made
up of historically pre-law students. By the way; you all may know
of others...all interesting...in this passing parade."
It is hard for us older folks to embrace the total picture, but we've
passed the torch. I recall when many GLOs rejected the teacher
colleges and trade schools, now both considered a part of the academic scene. Change is affected by the young and us oldsters
will stand by to help when asked. But Alpha Phi Omega is still the
boy scout organization...I loved scouting and still do.

Why???

You said that you had NPC and NIC Greeks on your exec board in APO...which did they pledge first?

And to valkyrie, without getting into voluminous detail, not everyone was excited that APO went co-ed. Some members who are not excited show their displeasure by refusing to call women "brothers." I know that younger chapters may not have any clue of that, but for me, being called a "sister" would be offensive because in this context, it would imply that I am thought of as lesser because of my sex. This my personal opinion and just the tip of the iceberg - if you have a couple hours you can go check out some of the threads in the APO forum.

At FSU APO is co-ed but at FAMU it isn't, and there is Gamma Sigma Sigma over there. Somebody recently mentioned that they wanted to bring GSS to FSU while many people in APO feel like it is redundant, seeing as it is co-ed already (it would make sense if it wasn't integrated, but it is). Any thoughts?

To those Brothers I would ask if there is really such a thing as redundant community service?

Gamma Sigma Sigma is a unique organization that can stand on its own merits independent of Alpha Phi Omega. I KNOW that GSS can thrive on campuses where there is already a coed APO chapter. They are different enough to make it work.

Just cos sometimes I feel like being a 'trouble maker'.


I too am in a Fraternity. So are many NPC women... few of us are in actual sororities. We are NPC organizations because we only admit women.

I also am in a sorority that admits men due to Title IX (whether or not I agree with that is not important here) our brothers admit women for the same reason.

Oh well. Atleast this thread gives us some drama to look over.

In my TBS chapter, and I assume - in most, we allow our male members to choose what they are called - they can be called sisters, members, brothers - but most choose the term "Mister Sister".

But you asked about APO... I just wanted to share because I like the term Mister Sister.