Your listing the definitions of empathy and sympathy had what to do with a point exactly?

1 a : an affinity, association, or relationship between persons or things wherein whatever affects one similarly affects the other.

These two statements qualify as sympathy. One can possibly say empathy if you could see yourself killing or having killed a white person:

"I understand his desperation and where he's coming from"

"Many of these things have happened to me, and lots of other minorities in this country...I do understand his sense of frustration in a world that treats many people as second class citizens."

-Rudey

And, this guy is racist as well. It was a violent racist act, right?

Yes.

-Rudey

Actually the definition of empathy is understanding someone's experience, so empathy is appropriate in this context, because it seems to me that people empathize with the things that happened to this man before he killed someone.

Did you miss my stealing analogy earlier? Well, here it is again: I can understand why a starving mother would steal food for her child. Do I think stealing is ok? NO.

The same idea applies. I think the bigger issue here is that you were expecting a different reaction than the one you got.

Do I get angry when rich blonde girls tell me I'm in grad school because of affirmative action? Yes. Do I get angry when I'm followed in a store for no reason? Yes. Do I get angry when people speak to me and assume I grew up in the projects instead of 2-parent middle class home? Yes. Do all these experiences mean that I think its ok to kill people? NO.

Outside of the sympathy/empathy discussion, what is it that you're disagreeing with? Are you saying that it is wrong to "see where someone is coming from" while at the same time knowing that person's actions are 100% wrong and punishable?

I get how a person would have the attitude that someone who is bad should not be afforded any level of sympathy/empathy (I'm not trying to get into that!!). But, there are those out there in the world who have an understanding of that bad person's motives while not condoning them at all. Wouldn't you say?

And there you have it.

That's not what he's saying. The point is that this is NOT a situation in which a reciprocal understanding would be tolerated; note that this is similar to what I pointed to in your statements (which I assumed to be your ideas, because they were in YOUR editorializing, and not in the original article).

-RC
--how many times?

But YOU can't dictate whether or not someone can understand. You have no say in the opinions of others. Its ok if you state that YOU couldn't understand, but you can't force your opinion on anyone else.

Who hates it when girls are whistled at by guys?

I know lots of girls do. You emphatize based on the "broad" female experience I guess.

Now is your chance to talk about how much you hate it by going into this thread and doing just that:

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...threadid=68167

-Rudey

:) Ok - I see. We just have different views. I think most situations call for some level of understanding along with appropriate disdain and then punishment. For me, though, some situations hit home a little more so I feel them a little deeper. It's just a difference of opinion, no worries.

As far as my editorializing - I must not have made it clear enough. I originally saw the news show on the guy and that's where the majority of my comments came from. I only posted the tiny article piece to give everyone more concrete evidence of the event.

I think you'd have to change it to "who hates it when White girls are whistled at by Black guys".

Thanks Rudey!:)

Why? Both are true. Either one is a reasoning though so hey people are free to post in that thread about how they hate girls being whistled at, white or not.

-Rudey

But in that particular case race played a huge role.

So did sex probably. Either way, I'm sure that a woman that dislikes being whistled at, disliked the act regardless of race as well.

-Rudey

All race debate aside, I don't really get the reasoning. White people have to die . . . but only if they're living "the typical white lifestyle"? His quote implies that if a person is white but living "a black lifestyle" or "an Asian lifestyle" or "a racially mixed lifestyle," they don't have to die. What if it's a person of color living a white lifestyle? Do they die too?


Let's make a list of what a typical white lifestyle includes, because I seriously want to know.

I honestly think only he has an idea of what that means.

Some people see where he's coming from though so maybe they know.

-Rudey

And they would be?

Preciousjeni and Jubilance. You also quoted jubilance earlier and said "And there you have it" so maybe you do too?

-Rudey

So...since I said I know what its like to be discriminated against I now know what the typical white lifestyle is.

Learn something knew everyday.

I said maybe. Maybe you know. Maybe you don't? :)

-Rudey

Again, you're missing the point.

It's completely OK for you to sympathize/empathize/understand the scenario/experience similar feelings or anger/play semantic games with any of the above. In fact, I think to deny this would be one of the worst acts you could imagine.

I'm saying that these feelings cannot be experienced in the opposite direction (majority to minority) with any degree of civility, however, and would be met with outrage (from both sides of the spectrum). Does this make sense, when broken down in this way?

My reason for bringing this point to the conversation is not pernicious, by the way. Instead, I feel that when the reciprocal relationship is met with outrage, feelings are forced under the radar, and it leads to more subtle prejudices and (ultimately) racism, which is both harder to identify and harder to attack. It's subterfuge, in a way, and to my mind it's far more pernicious than overt racism on a macro level.

How many posters have heard about this story on the news? I know it was all over the local NYC news, but I wonder if it's national.

When I first heard about this, I immediately thought of Colin Ferguson shooting 24 people, 6 of whom died, on the LIRR.

Nope - I haven't heard of this except for the blip of an article posted. I even watch GMA every morning and haven't seen it on there. And probably won't now, especially with the G8 summit and the subway/bus bombings in London. Plus locally, we have a serial killer that's hogging all the news too.

He's just one more in a world full of psychos.

I love how you just throw my name in stuff.

I didn't say I understood the "living the white lifestyle" stuff. I said I understand the frustration of living in a culture that treats you as a second class citizen.

I would disagree. I think that in the reverse situation, I wouldn't criticize someone for stating that they can relate to the underlying feelings of the person responsible. Unfortunately, I think a lot of times people must go along with the status quo, and any type of dissenting opinion is criticized or ridiculed.

I bet it involves driving a Subaru and carrying Vera Bradley. SHIT.

See, I knew I was missing out on something....

Let's not drag Vera into this. :(

I will go on a limb here and say that if one were to construct a situation in which a white individual became frustrated with his treatment by people of minority status, then committed a hate crime, and other white folks had experienced similar frustration, they would be eviscerated for voicing that kind of absurd connection to the hate crime.

Now, I realize that this would certainly be different from endemic issues concerning black Americans, and I realize that we'll never solve the "is there a uniquely African American experience?" debate on Greekchat. But honestly, read the above paragraph, and try to look at your statements objectively. If not sickeningly apologist, then it's definitely grandstanding on a tragedy. I'm sorry I can't relate to that better.

-RC
--Just saying. Not blaming. It's a "part of solution/part of problem" scenario.

Well then we will just agree to disagree. I never said that I was apologizing for or justifying his actions. I said that I know what it feels like to be treated horribly because of my skin color. And I'm not going to apologize for relating my personal experiences to a situation just because you don't think its "PC".

The better discussion would be on how we get to a point where race is no longer an issue.

Emmett's killers had seen other women being whistled at and sympathized.

-Rudey

IKEA!

Again, I don't want you to apologize for your personal experiences. I just want everyone to understand where I'm coming from, which relates to your point below.

I agree. This, in fact, was the center of my point.

I think it's a little silly to have a sympathize/empathize discussion about a guy who is clearly mentally disturbed.
This person went to jail at 19 for 24 years. His sentence was extended from 20 years because he attacked another prisoner. He served every day of the sentence. When he was released, he spent a fex months in a halfway house but was thrown out when his behavior was too much to deal with. He's been homeless since then for about six months. Now, he's gone and done this horrible act. He is telling the police that he did it because he "knew a white person had to die." I'm not saying he shouldn't go to jail but really I think it's pretty clear that this guy is as disturbed as Son of Sam, who was told by a dog to kill people. Rather than just throwing him out of the halfway house, they should have committed him. Then maybe this woman would have lived.

COSIGN!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've never actually seen an Ikea before.

Until this week.

We drove past the one in Phoenix on Sunday on our way back to the airport. OMG that place was packed -- there wasn't a single parking spot available.

I wish we had had time to go in so I could see what all the hub-bub was about.

Oh, I have Ikea AND Pottery Barn furniture. I'm going to get killed, aren't I?

Hell, T, for that you deserve to die!