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I don't know that all of your stats are accurate, but the Asian's inspire me and make me want to work harder to keep up/get ahead.

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You certainly read unintended stuff into my posts, in fact you are reading untrue stuff.

I feel much sadness about the way our nation - and especially the south - treated African-Americans for a century following the Civil Way.

Perhaps you have heard about Karl Fleming's new book "Son of the Rough South." An excerpt in today's newspaper covered James Meredith's admission to Ole Miss in 1962. Hundreds of US Marshalls and US troops secured his place on campus, with 168 Marshalls injured (29 gunshot wounds, 6 with acid burns) and 200 soldiers were injured. A French reporter was shot fatally in the back, and an Oxford resident killed by stray gunfire. Prior to the battle's start, the Mississippi State Troopers (all white) made a show of driving off campus with their 68 cars.

Meredith, according to the book, heard from his father that "Death is preferred to indignity."

I wonder what he thinks about many of today's African-Americans?

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talk about a useless bit of information. you bring nothing of use to this conversation. you continually attempt to disparage black people on this site just to make your racist sensibilities more at ease.

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actually, they are....but you should be inspired, considering that according to these stats you're not at the top of intellectual totem pole.

"conservatives" hide their racist ideologies by applying their miniscule thought process on what a few do and apply it to the whole. if people wouldn't make racist comments based out of hatred, then the name calling wouldn't happen. you make them, therefore it applies to you.

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Here's a breakdown of SAT scores - check the 'racial' breakdown, then check out the 'income' breakdown.

Once again, causation vs. correlation

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this proves my point.

but actually for a better breakdown of income...the US census is better.

:)

i'll provide a link later when i'm off work.

the funny thing about this site is that people always want to use stats to bring up points....then get offended when said stats don't go their way.

I agree. Florida is a prime example of the most asinine educational system. School funding is based on FCAT scores which is a standardized test. Schools that have kids from upper-income families have always done better than schools with kids from lower-income families. The state then gives money to the schools based on how well the students do on the FCATs. In other words, the schools with the upper-income kids are getting money while the schools with lower-income kids are having programs cut and are having money taken from them. It makes absolutely no sense to me. The teachers at the lower-income schools spend their classroom time preparing students for this standardized test in hopes of improving scores rather than actually teaching them English, Math, Science, etc.
Obviously, the schools with lower scores need more money to help build programs to improve the education level of the students there. The State of Florida government does not see it that way.
Florida always ranks towards the bottom out of all the states when it comes to public education. Figures.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I do not like Jeb Bush.

There should be a system of bonuses for improvement for schools regardless of where they rank. At the same time, more funding should be spent on the underachievers.

Of course it is wonderful coming up with theories like this. In actuality, the teachers union would try and get their hands on any new money coming into the system, construction of new schools would include $40,000 toilets due to corrupt officials, and nobody will learn a thing.

-Rudey

How can you prepare kids to pass a math (or English or Science) test without teaching them math (or English or Science)?

To pass the test, you pretty much have to know the minimum.

Please come back to the topic, and end the name calling.

Let's discuss, even argue, without making personal attacks.

discuss what? your bigoted ideology? there's nothing to discuss.

I don't see any black people calling you racist for anything you said in this thread. If one does and has good reason for it, then worry about it.

-Rudey

The teachers spend the time teachings students how to take the test. It's like when you take the SAT prep courses. You learn how to take the test rather than learn all the vocab/math that is associated with it. The students learn all the 'tricks' of passing the exam without ever learning the concepts behind it (i.e.- they learn how to finish the geometry section of the exam by learning process of elimination and other tricks but never really learn the real concept behind the question on the exam). By teaching students how to take a test rather than giving them a real education, you end up with one-track robots who are programmed to pass a test but not much else.

While I agree with your conclusion (ie "Standardized testing is a tenuous method for studying intelligence or learning"), this line of thought is really pretty weakly grounded. There are very few 'tricks' that markedly increase scoring on tests such as the SAT, and zero that work better than simply knowing the material.

For years, 'teaching to the test' has become a buzzword, but the concept isn't very fully explored. For instance, one important way to teach to the SAT is to utilize rather lengthy lists of words to increase vocabulary, which aids the analogy and reading comprehension sections. However, these are not arcane words for the most part - the literal increase in vocabulary is, most likely, a legitimate use of resources.

Even beyond that, any teachers that feel confined to 'teaching to the test' are exacerbating the problem. The real issue comes from improper foundation in the subjects tested - if the students in 8th grade cannot perform at an 8th-grade level, as a collective, we need to start looking at the 7th-grade instructors, and the 6th, and so on. To my mind, this is the real issue - if we confine instructors to this situation, we ignore previous levels that have failed to perform.

The bottom line is that classes such as those provided by Kaplan aren't magic - they provide a level of comfort with discerning question 'types' and utilizing past information to answer the questions as posed. Any amount of 'teaching to the test' is simply a result of a systemic failure to teach previous to the test.

The classes and 'tricks' should be completely unnecessary.

Actually, I think results prove that spending more (see Atlanta City schools. Wash. DC schools) doesn't produce improvement.

I suggest we try vouchers (let the kid take himself and his money to a successful school of his choice).

Then the better students leave and you are left with schools full of bad students, students with parents who don't care, underfunded schools, etc.

-Rudey

What's the downside?

If the bad students and the students with non-caring parents are left at school AAA, their behavior won't disrupt the students and teachers who care at schools BBB and CCC.

If the number of students declines, of course the amount of $$$ will decline, but the bucks per student remains the same.

Hoosier,

Explain my situation to folks since you know so much about people:

I am an African American woman whose mother was an elementary school teacher that became a principal and whose father is a dentist--both who have been married for over 40 years.

Both my parents have secondary degrees. Everyone in my immediate family have doctorates with the exception of my brother--who is currently working on his Ed.D. and my nephew, who is a baby. In fact my paternal grandfather was a president of a historically black college and university (HBCU) with 16 honorary doctorates before he died. He met FDR personally. My paternal grandmother was a teacher. Everyone on my father side of the family are professionals.

My mother's family was extremely poor, due to the fact that her father was caucasian and had 2 families: one black one in the woods and one white one, publically, in Tate County, Georgia outside of Marrietta. Only one of her brother's has a professional job due to the fact he served in Vietnam twice and he is in law enforcement in Atlanta...

I lived in a predominantly caucasian neighborhood in the 1970's and 1980's. Graduated from a predominantly caucasian high school in the mid-1980's and was accepted to ALL of the University of California schools, mainly Berkeley and Santa Cruz due to affirmative action. But decided to attend Spelman College, another HBCU...

I graduated in 4 years with a Bachelor's of Science in Biology, then in 2.5 years with a Master's of Science in Molecular Biology from San Diego State University. And after some long arduous years, I now have a Doctorate in Molecular Biology from the Joint Doctoral Program of San Diego State University and University of California at San Diego...

I did extremely poorly on the PSAT, SAT and GRE. I could not get a decent percentile rank no matter what Kaplan course I took. However, I could present and articulate my ideas publically and orally without hesitation...

I married an African American man who attended Morehouse College, another HBCU that is across the street from Spelman College, who is a graduate from Louisiana State University Veterinary School. He is also a certified veterinary pathologist and an acting assistant professor at the university where we both are currently working.

His father is a cardiologist and his mother was a teacher until his father rejoined the military as a Col.

What does this mean to you? Well, since it sounds like all African Americans have no respect for education and decide to live poorly and never amount to anything, I guess my question to you is, young man, where are you getting this "information"? It is not like you are going to do anything about it, so why care?

KTSnake, KsigRC and Rudey, you all cannot say ANYTHING in this conversation... This conversation is between Hoosier and me... ;) :rolleyes:

And where is DST Chaos when you need her??? ;)

The nice Lady Pi Phi asked a question, and I responded:
.................................................. .................................................. .......
quote:
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Originally posted by Lady Pi Phi
Any speculation to why this is? I'm curious.
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In part, and I know there is some improvement, it is related to the out-of-wedlock births.

No father means no money, which means no books in the home, no quality family time if the mother is working, children raised by grandparents, etc.

It's also related to attitude: if you think your problems are caused by others - and your leaders continually reinforce that thought - you're not likely to get your butt to work and pull yourself up by the shoelaces.

"I am somebody" should be replaced by "I got a job"
.................................................. .................................................. .......

AKA - Monet: You've accomplished a lot, and had a supportive family.

I would ask you why you - an accomplished student - got bad marks on the SAT and GRE? I've never understood why some people, who do well in class and on regular tests, cannot do well on the big standardized tests. Any thoughts?

And both Spellman and Morehouse are great schools, and great contributors to our Atlanta community.

Geography wise: Tate County is way up in the GA mtns., famous for marble quarries, probably 100 miles from Marietta, an Atlanta suburb.

Hoosier,

Those tests NEVER made sense to me. I did not understand the questions being asked of me, especially the verbal analogies...

When I took a SAT prep course and the tutor reviewed a verbal analogy of moot and toot and how they were similar, I'm sorry, that just is plain idiotic to me.

Standardize tests do not measure one's ability to complete the task at hand. Yes, it is used as a tool to demonstrate one's knowledge and a key to open that door into broader avenues, but it does not, in the long run actually get a person to where they need to go and how they need to get there...

I currently work with another veterinarian who is a caucasian woman that also did poorly on the GRE and the MCAT for vets. She was accepted into vet school based on her interview and had to make some classes up in the process. After her graduation she worked in a vet clinic that gave her "real world" experience. Then she decided to pursue a certified pathology diplomate from the ACVMP... BIG TIME in our field... There are 4 sections to the test and everyone MUST pass it--it's like the California State Bar... Anyhoo, she studies her AZZZZZ off to get this stuff... And I hope she passes it with flying colors. There are others around her that are rooting her on, hoping she succeeds. But this test is not a standardized test, this test is an ASS kickin' test--sink or swim test... There are no tricks to learn, no bubbles with a number 2 pencil, one must learn the stuff, WELL!!!

I say all of this to say that yes, standardized testing is only as good as the knowledge we want folks to know--i.e. what the government says that everyone should know... The above and beyond that individuals who want to know more has to be cultivated--mainly through supportive environments... However when supportive environments are lacking, how can we expect that the standardize testing could be used as a back up?

Another item is if we only teach children to pass tests based on the government's concept of learning, then what will we be capable of dreaming for the future? I doubt our current governent wants us to even grasp our future as our own... But that's my opinion.

That like the 4 blind doctors trying to describe an elephant by its different parts...

OMG, guys! I actually agree with Rudey here!

Vouchers won't solve problems. They just move it around.

Some of that is your district itself, PM Mama. I'm pretty sure I know which one you stayed at (Pirates?)and the district saw vouchers as the opportunity to gobble up students and therefore more money without screening who they allowed to use them. Students who've been expelled or suspended shouldn't be allowed to barge in other public schools. They need home schooling or something. They have also flocked to a charter school in the area (Summit) which was to have been an extraordinary school when they opened. It's now filled with kids who were kicked out of other schools. So, even with "School of Choice" vouchers, the school district should pick and choose who they will take or they end up with a lot of problem children.

It's still a downside of voucher systems (which I don't agree with either)

The downside is everyone is entitled to an education. If these kids have problems from the get-go and have no appreciation for education then you can't just say they no what they are doing.

And that's just on their level. Education impacts everyone. It impacts everything from voting for a representative (look on Greekchat at how many stupid people make stupid remarks at election time) to how they perform at work to how their health measures up.

-Rudey

OMG STFU!

-Rudey

I know you don't want me to say anything, but I don't see Hoosier commenting on every single black person out there...

-Rudey

I think the problem would be that the enviroment becomes toxic at school AAA - and those students trapped at it because of either economic, social, or familial reasons would continue to perpetuate the substandard education.

Enviroment is substantial in the forming of a persons perception of education - kids exposed to an enivroment where education or "book smarts" is mocked or looked-down on have little to now motivation to pursue education; the opposite is true as well: where education is lauded a greater number of kids will pursue higher education.

The problem with your system is that it doesn't adequately provide for those that want to break out of the system/cycle of poor education limiting their future... and in effect condemns them.

Sweetheart, I generally know your thoughts on various subjects... So when I want you to weigh in on a topic that is being discussed, I attempt to make an "open" statement on the topic...

However, if you actually DO have a comment about my response to Hoosier, I would love to hear it, because I do value your insight...

However, some of the comments Hoosier made are hurtful and misguided. In my opinion he has an inaccurate perception of people with gross generalizations that needs to be rooted out or at least have a concept of why he says what he says and where he is coming from...

The fact is Hoosier's life experiences have limited him to what several folks see on television rather than how many folks live day by day...

I wish I knew why there is a disparity on scholastic performance by underrepresented people of color on standardized tests. All I know is I came in stealthly, under the radar before the rules changed and was afforded an opportunity, which I took--I also worked extremely hard to get to where I needed to go... Giving up was not an option for me, in my mind...

However, I can speak for only African American children, that my mentality was and still is extremely rare and many give up and fall on the wayside... And I wish we had the actual whole numbers to say that it is alright, but proportionally and percentage-wise, we do not.

Should something new be done by the government? I do not know? What more can be done by the government?

If we solve that problem, we solve many other problems in inter-ethnic/cultural relations...

I was just speaking to this thread and about if he generalized to all blacks or not. That's all. You are all free to continue and all that. Sorry for the interruption :)

-Rudey

Thanks for the bat signal. :p

Many people take one bit of information, misconstrue it, and run with it. Many GCers have not done extensive reading and research but always manage to have an "opinion." This is the context in which GC usually operates so reading and partaking in dialogue is "at your own risk."

I challenge everyone in this thread to be open to what others are typing. Generalizations are not a bad thing when they are based on well-researched trends and patterns AS OPPOSED TO poor assumptions and negative stereotypes used to fuel a supremacist agenda.

The readers should attempt to be objective enough to receive these generalizations without thinking the author is trying to account for EVERY person in that (race or social class) group. The authors are also charged with a level of objectivity and the need to convey a message without sensationalizing the issue and demeaning the subject-group in order to prove a point. Of course, there will still be people who don't know what the hell they're typing about. :p

brains are sexy.

:o