Exactly. Saying what will or will not EVER happen, telling someone that they are NOT Catholic, etc. is holier than though.

And no kidding women can be nuns, but if she was a nun i'd think we'd know by now ;)

You are all welcome to convert to Judaism.

-Rudey

Or Zen Buddhism.

-RC
--Seriously, it's helped me to chill the fuck out and stop being a pedantic douche

i heard you were still a douche.. i gues sjust not pedantic.

I'm still pedantic - i was making fun of the pedantic garbage this thread has turned into

What do you mean the Church doesn't have the power to change it's stance on married priests or women being ordained? - the Church does have that power because they have done it in the past... read up on your Church history and you will find that in the early Church priests where allowed to be married...

Seems to me that this discussion has less to do with the New Pope than with RC dogma, the nature of sin, and who is technically a real Catholic.
For those who say that dogma will not change, yeah you are right. Dogma will not change. Dogma is the bare bones essence of what the Faith is really founded upon. However, most of what has been discussed is not found in dogma per se. Married clergy and the gender of those able to be ordained is not found in dogma but in practice. St Peter was married and he was most certainly Catholic.
The Holy Father can not change dogma but can and does adjust practice from time to time.
The essence of Catholic Faith is the Nicene Creed. One can be a Catholic and still be in error or be in a state of sin. Technically, anyone who accepts that JC is who we believe Him to be is a Catholic, though that person might be scismatic or simply in error. Remember that the definition of Catholic is Universal.
As to the nature of sin, I was taught that there are some acts which by their nature are essentially positive and some that are essentially negative. However, for an act or ommision of an act to be a sin one must believe that this act or omission is contrary to the will of God and that one must act or fail to act in the knowledge that this is offensive to God. It has a lot to do with personal responsibility and one's ability to understand the nature and gravity of the act or omission. That is best left up to the judgment of God. The more you understand the more is expected of you, but I'll (excuse the expression) be damned if I judge you for your honest decisions.
The very essence of the Catholic faith is reconcilliation and redemption. There are certain revealed truths which are immutable and there are plenty of incidental practices which are open to adjustment. It used to be mandatory to avoid eating meat of Fridays. That was not dogma but practice. It was designed as an act of self denial to express devotion. It came to be viewed as an unnecessary disciplinary rule that had outlived its usefullness and was being seen as an essential rather than an incidental. The rule was eliminated as a mandatory requirement and simply suggested as a voluntary expression.
To sum up, dogma will not change but practice can. I think it will be interesting to see how the next 20 or 30 years play out.

Totally. The worst thing any Buddhist says to another Buddist is "Dude, that is SO not Zen of you."

I'm going to attempt to answer a lot of the issues you have with me as best I can in one message. First off, I'm actually a Catholic Theologian - and ORTHODOX Catholic Theologian. That IS a role within the Church. It is also one role among many that I have in the greater Church, not just my parish (World Youth Day Leader, Youth Minister, teacher, etc)

Secondly, this dicussion can be linked back to Pope Benedict XVI because he has been 'fighting' against moral relativism for YEARS and will continue to do so. This discussion is moral relativism at its finest. (For those that are not aware of what moral relativism is, it is deciding what is right and what is wrong based on how you feel rather than based in solid truth; that morals are personal and can change from one person to another depending on their individual circumstance, etc). The Ten Commandments are not suggestions - they are COMMANDMENTS. A sin is a sin is a sin, no matter what color you try and paint it - and standing by and watching something happen and not doing anything IS a sin of omission.

There is a great difference between catholic and Catholic. The term catholic in the Nicene Creed is actually the little 'c' catholic (meaning universal) so no, not every Christian is a Catholic - but every Catholic had better be Christian.

Vatican II did not change ANYTHING! This is one of hte greatest misconceptions about the Council. What happened was the Church (not the faith) was more clearly defined. I might also add that Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI were very instrumental in many of the documents written at the Second Vatican Council.

The celibacy of priests, women in the priesthood, etc those are issues that WILL NOT CHANGE. The closest to the Roman Catholic Church are the Eastern Orthodox Churches. Yes, they do allow men who are married to be priests - but you cannot marry AFTER you are a priest. You also cannot be a Bishop if you are married. You also really cannot compare the RCC and the Protestant denominations on these issues because there are too many differences between them to even know where to begin. This 'push' for women to be priests is a VERY recent thing brought about by post-Vatican II disgruntled sisters/nuns (there is a difference between a sister and a nun by the way) and this ultra-feminist nonsense.

Actually Catholics are still supposed to fast on Fridays - and if you do not, you are supposed to make some sacrifice in its place.

There are actually very few Dogmas within the Catholic Church (I want to say only three or four). You also have a distinction between Tradition and tradition. Tradition (Big "T") will not change. Those are things passed down from the Apostles. This includes priestly celibacy, baptism of infants, etc.

To not agree with the teaching of the Catholic Church is technically to be a Protestant, not a Catholic. Once again, you either believe in the Catholic Church and all she teaches or you don't. There is no gray area. There is no picking and choosing what you want to believe at any time that suits you (once again, moral relativism). You cannot call yourself a Catholic and blatantly go against Her teachings. Those teachings are based on the Word of God through His Son, Jesus.

So Beryana, are those who converted to Catholicism as adults not really Catholic? They certainly weren't baptized as infants. I wasn't baptized until I was five, but I still took my first communion with my grade when I went to Catholic school. Was that wrong? (I don't attend a Catholic Church anymore, and am pretty much Anglican (I haven't officially converted yet))

ETA: One more thing, Beryana, in your PERSONAL opinion, are Protestants "wrong," especially those who are "liberal?"

And being born and raised in Italy, going to Catholic schools, etc has WHAT to do with actually being a true, practicing, orthodox Catholic?

Actually I should thank you for helping me with my Christian Moral Priniples class.

The only reason I mentioned infant baptism because there are some protestant denominations out there that refuse to baptize infants. I have known MANY orthodox Catholics who went through RCIA and were baptized as adults.

My personal opinion on Protestants - they just have not understood the full truth of God revealed through Christ. because that will be taken COMPLETELY out of context by some, to clarify, they are not complete (only 2 sacrements (some have more but not all 7), the fullness of the Eucharist, denying the assistance of Mary and the Saints, etc).

What EXACTLY is orthodox Catholic? I've never heard that term used before (outside of Eastern Orthodox)

Me neither............

I was educated in the best Catholic schools in the state for 13 years, went through the sacraments of Baptism, Reconciliation, the Eucharist, and Confirmation, my "home" parish is a co-cathedral where I've had the privilege of meeting and interacting with the Bishop and other visiting clergy.

I have never never never ever heard of "Orthodox Catholic". In school, you were either Catholic or Non-Catholic.

I think you're pulling "Orthodox Catholic" out of your ass.

I've heard that there's a branch of Catholism that isn't officially recognized because they do not accept Vatican II. I read about it around the time The Passion of the Christ came out because Mel Gibson's family is part of the church. Is that "Orthodox Catholic?"

i think people pull the word 'orthodox' outta their asses when they want to emphasize how 'conservative' they are.

whatever - there is only ONE catholic church (and fyi - it's not listed as orthodox)

and yes, i'm catholic - so i hope that my catholic upbringing hasn't cheated me by never mentioning the word 'orthodox'

- marissa

I bet "Orthodox Catholic" is kind of like Mormonism. Maybe there was a guy named Mr. Orthodox who found some fake plates and pretended to translate them, and maybe there were over two million pretend people who died somewhere in the US. I bet they wear garments and get sealed, too, and go through mysterious initiation ceremonies while naked under a poncho.

The problem the Catholic church has is that the authority figures know that if they were to force their members to accept every single one of their viewpoints, they would probably have less than 100,000 members left worldwide. Most of the church's leaders know that, as a whole, Catholics are not following all of the church's teachings, but they trade that in for sheer numbers.

I'm still waiting to hear what an Orthodox Catholic is.
I just have caught up on the thread & am sad to realize that I have been "demoted" from being Catholic to catholic b/c I don't agree with all the tenements of the faith.

Also, valkyrie, there are many who do not agree with what the Mormon church believes but I don't think we should poke fun at their doctrine. I happen to be marrying a Mormon & while I would agree with you on the whole sealing, sacred garments stuff, I would never insult them by mocking the values & traditions they believe. I may not believe anything they believe but I do try to have some respect for them.

See, and my LCMS Lutheran ass believes that you only need three things to be a complete Christian: Grace alone, faith alone, scripture alone.

All the rest you mention (the other 5 sacraments, the assistance of Mary, the saints, etc...) are just pretty wrapping paper. Nice to look at, but they have absolutely nothing to do with the gift that's inside. My boy Martin Luther felt the same way, which is why he left the Catholic church.

I admire your conviction and knowledge of your beliefs, but you're like that annoying kid in the back of the class who has her hand up every question and has to show off just exactly how much she knows while the rest of the class just groans and rolls their eyes at her.

Last night myself and three of my Catholic friends (the three of them had all been raised fairly strict Catholic, went to Catholic school as kids, etc.) were discussing the Catholic church. And all of us are contemplating going Lutheran. There's just nothing in the Catholic church for us anymore. To us, it seems that Lutheran is pretty much the same thing, but without all the BS

Yes, especially if the large number of members are actively tithing.

I googled "Orthodox Catholic"

That's what I got.

I went through the RCIA process and I've openly spoke my stances on certain issues. There are people that share similar beliefs and those that differ. I would think... and hope... that the friends (including my priest) I made in my parish would tell me that my beliefs were unacceptable and I wouldn't be confirmed Catholic. But I was... I went through my education, talked with my fellow parishioners MANY times, including my boyfriend/sponsor about if this was right for me, and each time they gave me a reason to keep going with it. So I did and here I am.

To add to "Orthodox" anything discussion... there is a Russian Orthodox and Jewish Orthodox parish/temple/[insert appropriate name here] here in Sacramento, respectively.

I'm sorry if I've offended you or anyone else. That's not my intent at all, but I have a question. Would you respect the beliefs of someone who was brainwashed and is in a cult?

Look Up "Catholic". Check The Dictionary. Then Post What it says.

Now, that does Bring up an interesting Problem.

There is a difference betwen Roman, Greek, or English.?

Now, when We (U) get into Jueidisam then that throws a different point of view.;)

Sorry, but what each of us beleive in our religiouis Beleifes is unto Our Selfs and No Others.

Tithing, why dont You explain explain what that Means?

"Tithging". Is Giving to the Church of Your Beleif. True.?

Then all it is is giving Money To The Church You beleive in.:rolleyes:

Then do it!:)

It pretty much is. A lot of tradition, none of the guilt.

I'd check out an ELCA church. They're the "hippy liberal" Lutherans -- open communion, women pastors, that sort of thing. ;)

maybe there is not a shortage of priests in the world, but according to a news story I just saw there certainly is a shortage in the U.S.

I am just curious what is the church's stance on promoting safe sex in Africa where AIDS is killing people left and right?

Karen

PS I am not catholic just curious

As to the priest shortage -- the numbers here seem pretty accurate:

http://www.futurechurch.org/fpm/statistics.htm

http://www.futurechurch.org/fpm/corpus/fact-sheet.htm

Granted, they have an agenda to push. But where are you getting your numbers that you claim there isn't one?

it would be intresting to know what REALLY went on when the cardinals were talking...

What is it exactly that you are all fighting about?

Are there actually any points that beryana is wrong on and you have facts that state otherwise? Because I don't see them.

And in terms of justifying the Church's stance on all sorts of issues, what is it you expect from beryana?

I don't know beryana and never have spoken to her on or off GC.

I think you're all just fighting over nothing anyway. Do what makes you happy. Live good lives. Be good people.

-Rudey
--That is all

I agree with Rudey...why attack someone because they are presenting the facts of the faith as they are? There are plenty of people who claim to be whatever religion and don't follow all of the teachings...not just Catholics, and are they really being true to that faith? I don't think so. I don't think Beryana is acting holier than thou, I think a lot of people have their panties in a bunch because what she pointed out is correct. You can't just pick and choose what you believe when you claim to be of a certain faith.

Would anyone order bacon and eggs or a cheeseburger if sitting next to the rabbi at brunch or lunch? I realize it's an extreme example, but you get the picture. If you're only going to "practice" when going to mass, services, temple, whatever then it seems a bit hippocritical.

It is also hippocritical to criticize people for having strength in their convictions, no matter what they are. Peace be with you all.

While it's fine and dandy that you are a theologian (Orthodox - which does carry it's own vias within the faith) you really need to brush up on your Church history - specifically the early Church.

Again priests, bishops and what-not where allowed to marry, but the pratice and rules to be followed pretty much came down to being chaste - which was and is technically the "proper" Catholic relationship anyways. Now the role of celibacy took greater promenence and became the mandated social/relational norm for the clergy thanks to monastisim....

As for ultra-feminist nonsense... you're begining to sound a wee bit like Jerome now ;) The push for women having more say in the Church is as old as the Church itself - one of that Constantine had the Church sort out (along with the various herasies at the time)... but it never really went away. I know it cropped up during the Pelgian herasy... and again in some Magdalene convents in Northern France and the British Isles - which a one large part of the reason why Gregory denouced Mary Magdalene; it removed support for the Magdalene convents.

Fasting doesn't mean the absence of food - but in the Church's case a refraining from meat (which is why Fish & Chip places do great business on Fridays here in Toronto). That practice has been around for well over a century - St. Patrick and St. Columba had to deal with the political and social ramifications of not partaking in some feasts - the nobles of the Dal Radia took it as a slight to have their hospitality refused (although more problematic in Columba's case being a noble himself).

You can disagree with teachings of the Church and not be "cast out" (although some hard-core folks would like to think so) - to disagree is not to dissent.


.... surprising how this discussion brings back memories of living at the chapter and attending Mass next door at the Opus Dei residence...

Hmmm... a group that has seperated itself from the RCC... with it own saints and everything....

They seem to be a church based on the teachings that they (the synod of bishops within their church) deem apropiate - while leaving out others.

Basically they are a Protestant church that identifies themselves as Catholic (which most associate with the RCC)... much in the same way as the Celtic Catholic Church up in Scotland and Wales. Their current Archbishop even identifies himself as a former "Roman Catholic" in his ruminations section discussing the new Pope.

Looking up at my previous post - I'm struck by the fact that this a group not disagreeing with the teachings of the Church, but are in fact dissenting... making Beryana's comments about Protestans and Catholics somewhat ironic... given this statement by her:

Since I don't have internet access often, I will answer the bigger questions.

First I'm going to ask my question: for those that are Catholic, WHY are you Catholic is you don't follow Her teachings?

Being an orthodox Roman Catholic is to be a faithful Roman Catholic. Yes, there are some churches out there that claim Vatican II was not in occordence with the Church and broke themselves off. This is not orthodox Roman Catholicism. To be orthodox is to be faithful and true to all the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Statistics on the vocation 'crisis': no, I don't have numbers, but I do know (in talking to local priests, bishops, religious, etc) that we do not have a crisis. There is a possibility that years down the road there will be a shortage of priests, but when the dioceses are ordaining 8-20 men on average a year, that is not a shortage or even close to it. What is happening is that society is putting religious life as a last resort (if you can't get married, join the priesthood, etc.). Where you have active prayer life you have vocations to the priesthood and religious life. To those that feel the 'only solution' is married priests, how can someone give their whole self to the wife AND their whole self to the Church?

With regards to women having a say in the Church, we do - and always have had a say. We are teachers, mothers, etc. Who are the first to instill a prayer life and religious beliefs in a child, the parents. If that is not having a say in the future of the Church, I really don't know what is. Holy women have influenced the Roman Catholic Church for centuries - and did not have to be priests to do such. Women have been given the title of Doctors of the Church. Women will never be priests within the Roman Catholic Church - and any truly Catholic woman will agree with this. It is a gross misunderstanding of equality that puts people on the rampage. To be equal does not mean that we have to do the exact same job/have the exact same role. Equality is respect - and women have had respect and reverence within the Roman Catholic Church since the beginning!

Beryana

P.S. by the way, there is a difference between abstaining from meat and fasting. Fasting is limiting the amount of food eaten during the day (water only fasts, bread and water fasts, two small meals and one larger where the two small together cannot equal the larger, etc). Abstaining from meat is just that - not eating meat.

Well, this is the first time I've heard the term "orthodox" applied to Roman Catholism.

As for priest shortages, a recent Toronto Star article addressed this:

So the priests are mostly in develoing countries, but not in western Europe and North America. Parishes here are disappearing, and we've all heard about these problems. Beryana, do you think they should fly priests in from Africa and Latin America to replace the older gentlemen in this part of the world? After all, the number of priests are growing there.

And I guess you probably don't think Anglicans are real Christians and following the Bible to its fullest because they ordain women. In fact, the first woman Bishop in Canada will be honoured by her high school (and my alma mater) this spring as a "distingushed Old Girl."

ETA: here's the link to the priest article: http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...acodalogin=yes