SigEp have an innovative recruitment stratagy, judging from the chapter that was at my school it is to laugh....hahaha. Basically give anyone a bid. Altimately thats what did them in. they got guys who wanted to wear letters, as soon as they lost their charter they became a local for a year and then became TKE. Guys who had been brothers for years just picked up went on going. At least the underground LCA chapter stay loyal and have some love for what they have on their chests.

Still, besides the legal ramifications, if this group is not recognized by IHQ, they will never be Brothers of LXA.

They will just be an underground group using LXA equipment and holding supposedly to the same ideals.

That seems to be the main question that comes to mind, where does it leave these young men who Associated and went through a Ritual that is not sanctioned or recognized by IHQ!

I say let the guys in. IHQ may not recognize them as brothers, but I sure as hell do. If someone makes the sacrifice, takes the time and effort to become a LXA, even if IHQ doesn't want them, goes through ritual, they are brothers in my eyes.

...and HQ could then regulate them??? Um, wasn't that the problem in the first place? Your logic just took a nosedive, pal.

How are you going to monitor and regulate a group that already rejects it, and is going about things the wrong way (which is any way they damn well please)? It's already a non-starter.

It is actually just the opposite. The underground chapters never rejected HQ, HQ rejected the underground chapters.

Just look at this from the Underground chapter list post:

"I have talked to brothers at James Madison and Richmond, these are both UNDERGROUND CHAPTERS. James Madison has a lot of influential alumni and they have been trying VERY hard to get their charter back, they have a website and the three brothers I met that came down to Tennessee were really good guys that had an extensive knowledge of our fraternity, most impressive undergraduate brothers I have ever met. Richmond, likes being underground and it does not look like they are getting their charter back anytime soon but they are still well respected on their campus, as an undergraduate Lambda Chi Alpha chapter."

HQ doesn't want them, like LXA Alum said in his past post, it's in the code and consitution. Some of these underground chapters follow LXA rules better than and have more respect than a recognized chapter.

So my logic is flying pretty high. I say HQ gives them a charter.

Why doesn't HQ try to turn them into official chapters? Like I said before, it is more than likely because of something that happened 5 or 10 years prior. HQ holds grudges for a long time and it is usually innocent brothers that end up paying the price years down the road.

If HQ did turn them into chapters, they would get $$$, could regulate them, and they would then be insured.

A little background
 

#1- to Lifesaver, the underground chapter is primarily a northeast phenomenom, in my dealings with people outside my immediate area (PA) they dont even know what I am talking about, poorly run college greek systems and incompetant (sp?) greek advisors and up tight law enforcement has led to many chapters getting tossed, but since the colleges did little or nothing for them anyway, they can go right on operating. The SRU LCA chapter is probably having a better fraternity experience off campus than they did on campus in their eyes.

#2- To GammaZ- too bad we arent TKE or Sigma Tau Gamma, they had underground chapters at Shippensburg and just like you said they just re-recognized them after 10 and 4 years as underground chapters to "new colonies" respectively. Shippensburg is a state university just like Slippery Rock. It can be done, LCA isnt into bending the rules like those two fraternities are, otherwise we'd probably give SRU's chapter an award for perserverance. Personally I side more with them, it gets rid of long term problems. However LCA is very conservative and is probably afraid of some other legal problem it might cause somehow, it's just how they operate.

#3- To Mooch, I agree alot of this aggressive expansion is a bit weak, Kappa Sigma just recolonized at Shippensburg with the new wave of expansions from Kappa Sigma. From what I understand it is a everyone take a bid so we can be the largest fraternity kind of deal. They will most likely fall back to a modest to small chapter once the novelty and support goes away, along with having to actually do something to get letters. Phi Delt at Ship went through the same kind of hype/ fall off from 1999-2002 at Shippensburg

Hope it helps

Lenoxxx

PS- with LCA's website you can download most if not all pertinant officer manuals (except ritual) and you can buy pins and paedagoguses on ebay weekly. While they may lack the official stamp of approval you can do what they are doing and it would appear we (the official LCA world) cant do much about it.

Good post Leno.

Yes, underground chapters are very common here in the northeast, primarily for a couple reasons. The schools here are older than most throughout the nation. We have alot of prestigious universities like Yale and Harvard which have underground societies (like the skull and bones). With the old/prestigious colleges there is alot of legacy in one's family with fraternities/societies. Alot of major universities/colleges at one time banned fraternities and sororities, like Harvard and Amherst College.

For instance, there are alot of underground fraternities at Amherst College, although disorganized and not really well respected, they are there. Amherst College used to have an amazing Greek system. They used to command HUGE mansions in the middle of Amherst in probably the most prime real estate available. If you ever go to Amherst, check them out near the town common, the old fraternity houses are simply AMAZING. Now they are just student dorms. Amherst College kicked fraternities out and banned them a while ago, like 30-50 years ago. Also Boston University banned Greeks for a while if I recall, Eric B., can you confirm this? Harvard also banned greeks. Now at Harvard, instead of a fraternity, something like the Astronomy club would be the equivalent.

I also thing that there are more underground fraternities in the northeast simply because of the number of colleges we have.

Now where the GLOs banned or was school recognition withdrawn?

It makes a big difference to IHQ I'd think... and of course when and why... for example is true that if recognition is withdrawn by a school that pretty much gaurentees IHQ will pull the charter?

I think that Amherst College themselves banned the entire greek system. I didn't mean that we ever had a LXA chapter there (did we? I'm almost 100% sure we didn't). I just wanted to use Amherst College as an example of a thriving, totally underground greek system.

Forgot to add something:

"is true that if recognition is withdrawn by a school that pretty much gaurentees IHQ will pull the charter?"

I know at Umass we had a national fraternity start a new chapter which was recognized by their nationals before they were officially voted into the Umass greek system and recognized. So I guess that a national could in theory recognize a chapter without the university or college doing so.

I mean, legally I don't think a university could stop a fraternity from recognizing one of it's own chapters. The only thing I guess they could do is not recognize the chapter as part of the school's greek system.

Actually I was looking at it from IHQ's perspective - so will they still recognize a chapter currently if the school pulls recognition for that chapter - or - the greek system?

Hmmm, interesting. I don't know. That is a good question. If a school does disband the greek system, can a chartered LXA chapter still exist at that school?

I do now that in the past IHQ would still recognize the chapter - or the UofT chapter wouldn't exist - but I was wonder what the current policy is... considering all the talk I have heard about only going to schools where LCA was invited - which to me implies that they would a) recognize the underground chapters unless the school recognized them; b) a desire to be firmly "above the table" when dealing with chapters and/or schools where recognition is an issue.

Maybe LXA is or percieved to be on the conservative side, but, remember, We are one of the Largest International Fraternitys. There are many who are not.

Maybe many are not aware of the fact that LXA is on a Growth structure.

It is supposed to be a two pronged attack, New and Old being recolonized.

As far as Gamma Zeta is concerned, there was an effort my IHQ and some of the Brothers at G A to make the young men from the Local to feel welcome and try to keep in touch with them.

Lenoxxx and I discussed this under ground situation several times, and it is hard for many of us to fathom it. We are not used to it.

SRU situation is a sticky situation and it may behoove IHQ to sit down and talk with them and the College.

It is not My call or any others. We all want the best for LXA and the growth of LXA.

LXA does feel, that if We are not wanted by a College, then why do battle when there are so many other Colleges availabe to Colonize in and at. We did not get accepted at Duke. But DTD and one other did. Posted on GC in Greek Life.

It is funny, when I heard of a Colony at UIW, I said this was crazy. Today, they are a New Zeta and doing well.:cool:

So, I am in Hopes that the old days are in full gear with expansion, but with some reservations on where to go and if it will work for the long run.

Ask Ottar and lenoxxx, they can fill you in on Phi Tau. Today, they are the strongest Fraternity on Campus.:cool:

We all go through tough times.:)

If the school pulls recognition, it is pretty standard for LXA to pull the charter. I haven't heard otherwise.

There are other GLO's, such as Sigma Pi, that won't necessarily pull a charter if the school pulls recognition. It happened at Northern Colorado in the late 80's early 90's for Sigma Pi.

Nope.

See: Alfred University and the Lambda Chi Chapter there, 2002/2003

I understand if the school revokes it's recognition of a individual chapter - but what if the school revokes recognition for the entire greek system? Not disbands it or bans it - but says they no longer recognize GLOs as a part of the school community...

I'd like to try and understand IHQ's position on lack or official recognition of GLOs by schools - because 90% of any expansion or recolonization would run into that issue up here... while only one school has banned GLOs (Queen's University), almost all others don't grant official sanction or recognition (except BC, Calgary, and WLU).

Like lifesaver said...nope. Alfred U pulled all greek recognition. LXA had an outstanding chapter there, and I think at GA we tried to keep it open, but it was for naught.

In the case of Alfred U, from what I remember, the school not only disbanded the system, but also told us that students could be suspended if they joined.... We would have kept it going if it didn't mean getting kicked out of school....
If any of the other alfred guys are on here I am sure they can give you a better synopsis than me.

North American Interfraternity Conference
 

Brothers,

This is a very interesting and important thread. Believe it or not, college Greek organizations have had similiar problems throughout their history. Almost from the beginning, with the creation of the Flat Hat Society, fraternities have been involved in hazing, binge drinking, sexual escapades, and so forth. The actors change, the drug of choice changes, but high risk behavior is characteristic of many college students. When you couple high risk behavior with "secrecy" and the "bond" of Brotherhood you have a formula for serious trouble. University Presidents and faculties have fought us from the beginning of our organizations because of this dangerous mix of risky behavior and silence.

In the past, "outlaw" organizations like Delta Beta Delta, Kappa Beta Phi, and Theta Nu Epsilon were little more than drinking clubs composed of young men who didn't care for anyone in authority. These renegade societies were part of the reason that the North American Interfraternity Conference (NIC), then known as the National Inerfraternity Council, was founded about 100 years ago. They saw these irresponsible organizations, and the lack of clear chapter standards, as a threat to the existence of college fraternities.

In order to make this reform, they allied together and with University leaders throughout the country to rid their campuses of these groups. Many of the "rogue" groups continued after their national organizations disbanded or were absorbed by other fraternities. They continued operations as "sub rosa" campus groups. In the early years, most of the major fraternities agreed with university officials to withdraw recognition and support of a chapter when they were no longer recognized by the institution. This practice continues today with the NIC. Some groups like DEKE go their own way on this issue, a few groups like Phi Delta Theta have left the NIC, but almost all NIC members subscribe to this practice of not recognizing chapters that are not recognized by the university or college in question.

I think an examinination of the NIC position would be an interesting subject for discussion. If you want more information on the NIC you can find it here: www.nicindy.org

My position on this subject is pretty direct: if a Zeta is not recognized by IHQ it is not part of our fraternity. I understand the fact that some of these men could be very good Brothers. The same could be said of some of the men in our poorest Zetas. A few good men do not legitmize a group that is violating our Constitution and Code. It may be a "romantic" notion that they are independent, free, self-determing, etc. In my mind, they need to either shut down or petition to be a colony. We took oaths to abide by our Fraternity's laws. I have tried very hard to do this myself for over forty years. I simply don't trust or respect men who violate oaths, don't respect our organization, and pretend to be Lambda Chis. They aren't....

Yours in ZAX,

Mike "I am Drawing a Line on This One," Raymond
Zeta-Upsilon Zeta
1964

Good post and I agree with you in some points. However, I think that LXA's policy needs to be looked at. Maybe HQ could perhaps offer some amnesty program, where LXA underground fraternities could be granted a temporary colony status for like 6 months, then be evaluated, and then be allowed to go through the process of becoming a chapter. I think the underground fraternities need to evaluate if they really, truly want to become a LXA chapter given the opportunity, and the HQ needs to realize that there are some brothers in underground fraternities that would make great brothers and really want to become an official LXA. I think that there needs to be a meeting point in the center from both sides.

The good news, is that this current GHZ is just the group that would consider it, if it was brought to their attention. Past GHZ's wouldnt DARE consider it, as it would seem like they would lose face. Tats whay this GHZ rocks. They listen, and work hard at being responsive.

There is (or was) a supposed "underground LXA chapter" at
Anderson University, near Indianapolis (between Indy and
Muncie, Ball State).

AU is a small, conservative church-related school and officially
doesn't
allow fraternities. However they allow "service/social" orgs.
that for all practical purposes function as locals. Some have
been active 40 years or more.

Originally these groups had non-greek-letter names, like
Dativus, Eniteo, Agathos, etc. But in the early 80's they all
adopted greek-letter names as well (they still use both).

One of the older groups, called Sachem, supposedly linked
up with the LXA chapter at Ball State, and the BSU chapter
supposedly "recognized Sachem as an underground chapter"

For the past 2 decades they've been telling their rushees
that they are an "official" underground chapter of LXA.

I joined the faculty at AU in 1994, and became interested in
the group, seeing all the LXA letters on hats and jerseys.
Eventually I "infiltrated" the group and discovered they know
absolutely nothing about the "real" LXA....they couldn't
even tell me what "Per Crucem Crescens" or "Vir Quisque Vir"
meant....obviously the BSU chapter hadn't initiated them.
But they used the CoA anyway....just thought the design
was neat.

I contacted HQ and found out they had sent a "cease and
desist" letter to the group around 1990. It did no good, and
HQ never pressed it.

But the point is, if HQ doesn't "legally try" to stop these
groups, we could loose our copyright on the name, CoA,
etc. If an org or business owns a copyright and doesn't
"aggressively defend" it, the copyright can be legally lost.

I left AU in 2001, and at that time Sachem was no longer
recognized by the university....they violated too many rules.
But they continuted to operate, and like many unrecognized
groups, found that they liked it better without the "hassle"
of doing everything a recognized group has to do. Not
sure if they're still operating or not. They were bascially
the "football team fraternity", and since AU still has a
football team, they probably still have Sachem/"LXA" in
some form.

There are alot of advantages to being an unrecognized
group, from the perspective of a college student anyway.
No univ or national rules, no national dues, just do your
own thing. Of course the danger resides in the risk, but
that doesn't seem to deter them.

With the way some schools are trying to "stamp out" and/or
"tightly control" legitimate groups, it wouldn't surprise me
to see more of these unrecognized groups appear.

my 2 cc

Not only that...when (not if) these guys screw up and do something that draws public scrutiny, LAMBDA CHI ALPHA will be splattered all over the front pages of the newspapers. Then, the next day, after the damage is done and they receive a call from IHQ setting the record straight, they will run an correction at the bottom of page B-15.

Don't worry, we're not going to lose our letters or COA because of these groups. Don't be so paranoid.

There is not some underground chapter that has been saving 10's of thousands of dollars to hire an attorney to try to take away our copyrights. Do you really think some college student is going to spend ALOT of money and time trying to get legal usage of our letters?

To the general public, all greek frats are the same. No one would be able to distinguish between a LXA, PKE, PBK, and so on just reading it in the paper. And if you do know the difference, then you are probably smart enough to know there is more to the story and that LXA doesn't exist on said campus.

GammaZeta, while what you say might be true, then why hold our ideals higher than most?

Oh yes, there are enough people who can distinguish as so much has been written about GLOs recently. But, whether or not, it still comes down to Greeks no matter who it is. It stiil makes us look bad!

lifesaver, you made a very good point about the New or Current GHZ. There are it seems to be more than have been stated. So then So Called chapters such as James Madison, and Shippensburg, why not approach them and try to work with them, or come down on them and get everything settled.

But one wonders, if that happens how much retro training would have to be done to get up to standards?

According to someone in IHQ, We do not have a Statement Policy on handling Underground Chapters who profess to be still LXA.

This is sad for those new young men who beleive that they are joining LXA.:(

re: undergrounds and copyright
 

I would NOT expect any of the underground groups to try and
"take away" our copyright.

But according to the law, if you do not "aggressively defend"
your copyright, you can loose it in a suit involving another
case.

I learned this by reading a story about Walt Disney. Disney
sued a small child care facility because they painted images
of Mickey Mouse and Goofy on the walls of their playroom.
They did this without permission.

Disney sued...not because they are a bunch of "meanies",
but to prove they are "aggressively defending" their
copyright. Disney execs really didn't care if a small child
care center had those paintings.

BUT, if some manufacturer started making millions of dollars
selling "cheap" Mickey Mouse watches (breaking Disney's
copyright), then Disney sued for copyright enfringement,
the copy-cat could point to "numerous occassions when
Disney did not defend their copyright" and a court could
decide that Disney had in-effect surrendered their copyright
because they had not been defending it in other cases.

So its not a matter of concern that an underground would
try and legally take away our copyrights. The concern is
if some other group (a company selling LXA stuff, or
even an organization of underground LXA chapters)
which we WOULD want to legally prevent from using
our stuff comes along, and we sue, they can say
"Hey, everybody else uses LXA-copyrighted stuff
illegally, and they never say anything"....then the court
might say "you're right...LXA doesn't defend its copyright,
so in effect they've given it up."

Screwy how courts work sometimes.

You're right...you either aggressively defend, or you lose.

Just ask my neighbors - there is a legal issue surrounding property rights that parallels this issue, known as adverse possession, meaning, if you use land without permission for a long enough period of time (18 years in Colorado, differs in other states), the property becomes yours automatically.

That's what we did with our neighbors who tried unsuccessfully to move a fence 8 feet into our back yard, since the original property lines in 1956 showed it to be where they wanted the fence. But, 18 years had LONG since passed since the line was moved. We didn't even know about the change in property lines, but, in the long run, it didn't matter. None of the owners of our neighbors property had ever asserted ownership of the 8 foot strip, therefore, the property became ours.

It's the same issue with copyright stuff - though that doesn't bother me as much as what might happen with an underground chapter that casts a bad light on all of LXA. Should an underground chapter be accused of hazing or other criminal activity, and the media pick up the story, all you will see on the news is LXA - not "an underground chapter" of LXA - just LXA - our reputation will be trashed by a group not legally attached to us, but the damage WILL be done.

It's true about aggressively defending propery rights and copyrights. When I was a kid our 40 acre nursery ran between two highways and we had numerous dirt roads within that went past our house, barns, garden center, chicken coop, stables, help's quarters, pig pen, etc. We had to block them off for one day each year so that they wouldn't be considered public roads. Sounds silly, but I still remember my father doing that every year. He used barrels and lengths of 4" alumnium irrigation pipe.

ZAX,
Jono

There is a difference between land takings, real estate law, intellectual information and copyrights. Those examples cannot be used in this case seeing that they are based on state, not federal law. Also patent and copyright law is a very specific area of law which has strict guidelines, which is why those lawyers in that area of expertise make more in charging for one hour than most of us do all week. You simply cannot compare those examples to copyright law, you can only compare other cases involving copyright law to our case.

If you really want to be concerned about LXA and copyrights, I would be MUCH more afraid of the fact that many of LXA items, products and publications have incorrect or no copyright notice, which is much more dangerous than someone stealing it by our not "defending" it.

The Disney example is a little better, however, it still would not hold up in comparison to this case.

Simply buying a LXA shirt and saying you are a LXA is not a copyright infringement. If I wanted to I could get 20 guys together to wear LXA shirts and call ourselves a club there would be nothing LXA could do about.

The real path to argue would be the following: That by using the name LXA, the underground chapters were able to profit from the use of LXA and it's copyrights by saying they were associated with the national fraternity. Then we could sue for damages.

I did a quick LexisNexis and Westlaw search on copyright law and could not find anything that stated the terms "aggressively defend" in relation to losing a copyright in either statutory or common law. Maybe one of you gentleman could point me to a more specific case or section of copyright law so I could further research this. I think alot of you may be a little misguided by the actual intent of it.

In the end, it all depends on what you want accomplished. Do you want HQ to spend tens of thousands upon thousands of dollars on a decent copyright attorney to sue underground chapters for infringement? Or would you like to go about it in a different way. Perhaps a 6-12 monthy probation period to evaluate them becoming a full fledged chapter if they wanted to?

Related Thread
 

Brothers,

There is another active thread that relates to this topic. Check out
"Greek Organizations File Joint Litigation to Protect Trade Mark Rights;" it can be found in "General Forum>Greek Life.

Yours in ZAX,

Mike Raymond, ZUZ

That's good. People should not be making a PROFIT on copyrighted materials. I've never purchased anything from that Greek101 place before, but I have heard some things.

Copy Rights of real property or symbols is easy to follow the trail, and solve a problem, but the Underground Groups is something entirely different isnt it?

James Madison and SRU being two that come to mind.

Now, with there being no policy statement, where does that leave them and the young men who join these groups.:confused:

I beleive someone made a comment, if they are strong groups and would be equitable with said school, why not look into working with them and bringing them back into the fold of LXA?

Good post Tom. You are right, it is alot more difficult to make a case against a small group using our name than it is for a retailer producing and selling merchandise with our copyrighted information.

I stated before, if they are willing to come back into the LXA family, why not have them? Would it really be any different than incorporating a local fraternity into LXA?

SOS, knew I read that somewhere, Must have been You!:D

I am thinking about presenting this to IHQ.

Considering this converstion, it might be something to persue.

Maybe, the Underground Groups are of the same hopes?

Has anyone been in contact with These Under Ground Groups?

Wow, what a great idea! Hey, while you're at it, would you please tell the IRS I've been evading my income taxes for the past 10 years and would they please grant me complete amnesty? Of course I can't pay any back taxes but they should be happy to welcome me back into the family anyway, don't you think? I'm a very patriotic American, I really am. :rolleyes:

ZAX,
Jono

Jono,

In all seriousness, what are the TKE's and Sigma Tau Gamma's doing with their underground chapters? Ive seen them both work with and re-recognize underground chapters at my college.

Somehow they are able to work it out, maybe someone should ask them

Lenoxxx

Jono, I'll even say HQ isn't as bad as the IRS! LOL! But I do think the IRS had some amnesty programs a few years back with tax evaders.

Hey Tom, maybe you and I could work on this together? I have some ideas and am pretty experienced when dealing with bylaws for groups.

I mean what do we have to lose? Some man hours and travel expenses to check up on the chapters? I've seen HQ waste more money than that on sending dozens of the old C and C to the chapter house. At best, we will have some chapters already in place and paying dues and upholding our standards. We will be able to expand with alot less effort than starting from scratch at these schools. And if I remember correctly, many of them have old alumni already pushing to get some charters back.