The thing is that not everyone can get into a decent law school.

The barrier of entry is higher.

And plus, while you can't handle being a teacher, there are many, many people that can. I can't do it either. I'm good with kids but after a while it wears down on me and I will yell and I'd probably be on the news for calling a kid stupid or having other kids beat him up so he learns better. But I doubt many teachers can enjoy my job either.

-Rudey

These kind of statements have a lot to do with why it's so hard to find good teachers, particularly in the South. Smart people think that "many" people can be teachers, but that they should better use their intelligence by becoming doctors, lawyers, etc. If we start paying teachers what they are worth (and it looks like PA is doing a great job), more intelligent and qualified teachers will enter the job market. I know many girls who enjoy working with children and would otherwise want to be teachers, but a lifetime of low pay and hard work isn't as appealing as other careers. I understand your logic, but don't we want some of our best and brightest teaching our children?

Edited to add: I read in this month's NEA magazine that many Education students are not passing their teacher entrance exams. This is evidence that maybe those entering the teaching field are not at the level, intelligence-wise, that they should be. Higher pay for qualified teachers will lure smart kids to education.

For those of you that come from areas where teachers don't get paid much... are the teachers unionized?

I don't think all states in PA pay nearly as much as my school does, but in my county the pay is good- the teachers have a VERY strong union and a lot of political power.

Good points CC. Maybe if they were paid more, it would attract people who would be more-qualified, and the "bar" (that Rudey speaks of) could be raised.

If you're clerking for a judge and make less than $39k a year, something is wrong. Five years ago when I was fresh out of law school, I made about $46,500 as a brand new judicial clerk.

Depends what level of court you're clerking for. I think the Court of Common Pleas here is probably, maybe, around $40. I'm applying for the Commonwealth court, which is an appellate court, which I believe starts at around $45 your first year, and you can stay up to three years, with the amount going up.

Also, a lot has changed in the past 5 years... that was pre-9/11

Why do teachers (and most of the rest of us) have a job and doctors and lawyers have a practice?

Just wondering.

What bar are you going to raise?? Will teachers be paid more and learn nuclear physics and 14th century french literature before being allowed to teach?

-Rudey

http://money.cnn.com/2003/07/18/pf/easy_teachers/

Read that.

-Rudey

Interesting article. Did a decent job of covering both sides of the opinions in a small amount of column space

Perhaps I should have clarified. $75k/year??? My comment was directed at the orginal post. I KNOW most teachers don't make that kind of money in every state. My mom is a prime example... and the crap she put up with in her classroom is definitely worth more than what she is making. If she was making $75k/yr, I think she would be happy with that.

I've had my fair share of crappy teachers that, like KSig mentioned earlier, don't do the prep over the summer and think they can teach their children with movies while they chill in the corner reading a magazine. (My 7th grade science teacher in other words.) Yet she was the first on the picket line to protest for higher salaries.

And I'll agree with an earlier post that said that you would think a education student would go into the career TO TEACH and have a rewarding experience, even though the pay isn't that spectacular. BUT there are teachers out there who just do it for the check and complain when they aren't making enough for doing nothing. THAT bugs me.

It was Federal. I stayed with the court for almost three years and got about a $10,000 raise each year, so 9/11 did not affect the salary negatively at all. Why don't you look at Federal clerkships? They're more prestigious anyway.

It's a little late in the game for Federal clerkships (from what anyone I've talked to has said)... I didn't realize that clerking was something I might like to do until about a month ago. Also, this court I have great connections to through my boss and the rest of my firm. I'm also very familiar with the a lot of the subject matter this particular court deals with and that makes me very marketable.

If I would've seriously considered clerking earlier, I might have tried for the 3rd Circuit because I have a few connections there as well.

/hijack

In North Carolina right now, there is such a lack of adequately trained teachers that anyone with any degree that is relevant can teach. You get the teaching job, and you are a "teacher-in-training", teaching classes every day and then going to certification classes on the weekends. Although I value those people because we need teachers so desperately, they do not receive the same amount of education and training that students who major in education receive. If teachers have higher salaries, more intelligent college students will major in Education and receive complete and adequate training in teaching methods. In college today, a student who has interest in Biology is much more likely to major in Biology than Science Education, because they know the salaries have the potential to be higher in biological fields. Many of these students possess aptitudes for educating and motivating others, but they will never consider teaching as a viable career path unless the average teaching salary increases.

So I guess, the bar that needs raising is demanding that new teachers, with a higher amount of pay, be fully trained in education methods and able to pass the teacher entrance exams. Right now, we are at a point where college graduates with sub-par intelligence and educating skills are the vast majority of the future teachers. Obviously, this does not bode well for education in general.

Thanks..Physical Education get a bad rap sometimes...and with what some do, it is understandable. I hope your kids have the opportunity to be in a better class in the future. I have found that the more stuctured the class is, the more respect you get and the stronger impact you have. Believe it or not, i have found that kids actually like it more my way...and it helps out in reinforcing what they learn. Stronger test score :)
I know that there are good teachers and there are bad teachers, but that is the case with every profession and job. I had really good college professors and really good teachers. Each state has different requirements for teachers. Each states entrance exam is different. Each states pay scale is different. I really don't understand the arguement....a job is a job and everyone has the option of deciding what they want to do. You could have been one of those PE teachers who played basketball everyday...I could have been a lawyer. You chose your job because that is what you loved, regardless of the salary. I started out at $24000, including 2 coaches stipends. I drive a bus for extra money..I have another job for extra money. But I will continue to teach because I love the influence I have on others. I love the crazy kids and the ones that I have to break up fights for. I love the parents who attack me, because hopefully their child will still learn something in my class. I honestly feel like I make a difference. Trust me...I could have gone to law schoool...I could have been a lawyer...but I feel I make a stronger impact on society being a teacher. I could continue on, but my 25 min. lunch is over.

Again, to teach you don't need an advanced degree in nuclear physics. A teacher's work is not so difficult that many people couldn't do it. I'm sure those that teach and have PhD's end up in higher roles than teachers even.

I'm not sure where you came up with the fact that your state has a lack of adequately trained teachers, but I wonder if whomever told you that looked into other fields.

-Rudey

The school where I graduated from is in the midst of a dispute between the board and the teachers' union that has been going on since 2001. The teachers have gone on strike I think 3 times, and at some point said they will keep going on strike every year until their demands are met - showing their lack of concern for the students. As comparison for salary scales, the union has used school districts mostly here in Pittsburgh where the cost of living is much higher. The thing is that the average teacher salary is STILL higher than all but one of the schools they used.

The teachers are some of the highest paid people in my hometown and there are many families where both parents teach. They live in some of the ritziest houses to be had. Meanwhile, the area in general is getting poorer and poorer. However, the teachers want the board to go to binding arbitration, which would probably rule in favor of the teachers, which would raise taxes, which would completely cripple the town.

I could rant about this at length but I won't because it's really upsetting. It's torn apart families and friends, ruined businesses (my grandparents' lawyer, who is a really really nice man, is on the board and has lost hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of business due to this) and I don't even want to think about how cynical it's made the kids.

Teachers in many areas are not paid enough. But there are some places where they're getting away with murder.

Over 50% of the people who want to go to law school perform too poorly on the LSAT to be accepted to law school. Not anyone can do it, just like not anyone can spend 15 hours a day trying to figure out how some obscure statute can get thier client acquitted.

33girl, that's a good assessment of what it's like in our neck of the woods...

Unions may get the teachers more pay, but the strikes (there are always a LOT of strikes...some lasting a very long time... Sheila, remember the Riverview strike? Didn't that go on forever) are ridiculous.

My personal vent is the fact that I know somone who pays $200/month less a month in rent because she's a teacher, but her salary is comparable to mine. Different apartments, but the regular rent is only $25 less, anyway. Just a vent.

The other thing that the WONDERFUL South Carolina system does (nationally known for being ranked 50th... or have we moved up to 49th, yet?) is that they allow teachers with no certification because there's such a high need for them.

I agree with the earlier comment... maybe if we started paying them more, we'd get better quality... the expression, you get what you pay for. Though I guess it's a catch-22, because then you'd get teachers that don't care about teaching, but more about the money.

And just like not anyone can put up with 30 kids with all different intelligence levels. We do what we are good at and love. Unfortunately for teachers, people aren't paying them $300/hour to get them out of a drunken driving ticket.

Oh, here's something else I wanted to throw in.

One of the sticking points in my old SD is that the teachers do not need to live in the SD to teach there - so if taxes were raised they wouldn't have to pay them. How does that work other places?

I'm not saying anyone could. I just don't like the assumption that "anyone" can go into certain professions.

Also, there are very few lawyers that bill at $300/hr. Salaries for law are a LOT LESS than you think. My boyfriend is interviewing for public interest jobs right now and most of the starting salaries are lower than what my dad makes. My boyfriend went to a top 30 law school. My dad didn't go to college.

Listen people can do that. They may not want to, but they can.

And using your logic, i bet there are more people that can put up with 30 kids than there are people who can successfully operate on a brain or represent a man on death row.

-Rudey

Rudey, what do you mean? You know perfectly well that all lawyers get $300 an hour to defend jaywalking tickets because they are all ambulance-chasing shysters.

I don't get this -- if the teachers do live in the school district, are they required to buy a house or condo. so they're paying property taxes? If not, why does it matter where they live?

Thank you, GP. VERY few lawyers make $300 an hour, except maybe corporate in some instances. Attorneys who handle DUIs make MUCH less than that, or else they wouldn't have any business.

Also hate how people think anyone can go into any profession. There are MANY people who can't get into law school, med school, etc.

I wanted to be a teacher for the longest time... I love children and have spent a good portion of my life working with them. I love teaching people things, it's in my nature. But I decided that I wanted to do something that would challenge me more intellectually. Teaching can be mentally challenging, but it's not the same thing as the puzzles I have to solve and arguments I have to make everyday as an attorney. But teaching would've been very rewarding in other ways. I do realize as i've grown older that I may not have had the patience for it...

GP, I'm glad you know what's up with the salaries before you actually go to law school. When I applied to law school, the average starting salary from my law school was $80K. I'm not sure of what it is now, but it's lower. And they also play with the numbers a lot. It can be very deceiving!

Like GP's boyfriend. I go to a tier 1 law school. My dad didn't go to college. I may make less than my father, actually, a good chance of it.

I haven't spend much time on the NALP website, I need to look at their methodology. But the salaries that were stated seems very high.

ETA: Most AV-rated lawyers (the highest rating one can receive as an attorney) don't even make $300 an hour...

$300 an hour... 8 hours billable a day= $2400 a day. 5 days a week= $12,000 a week. = $624,000 a year.

VERY few lawyers make $624,000 a year

Also, people need to remember taxes aren't fee for service. You don't pay school tax in relation to how much you "get out" of the schools. You pay it because your community has made a decision that its wants to provide schools which are open to everyone in the community regardless of whether they can pay or whether they own homes. If school tax was about how much you used the schools or how much you "get out" of the schools there would be no point to public school. There'd just be private school and that's it.

Note: NALP is a nationally recognized organization which every ABA aproved law school is a member of. They do the largest survey of associates and law students in the country. In addition, most larger employers participate in the NALP survey and give them direct hiring info.
Truthfully, I don't know where you live but I think you are somewhat misinformed on lawyer's salaries. I know people in large cities, rural towns, big and small law firms and I haven't heard anything about such depressed salaries. Much of the drop from 9/11 has bounced back. And except for a few people I know who work for very poor non-profits or have clerkships (which as you know is a temporary thing you do for the experience), I don't know any people making less than 45K (not even people who graduated from less prestigious law schools).

Yes, and my cousin started his own business and was making 6 figures at 19. It doesn't seem fair, but it happens.

And there are lawyers that charge $300/hour. In my area, actually. And I know this because we recently had to find one for a girl who had to go to court for a DUI. My point is that there are careers where the revenues are much higher, so the salaries are much higher. Let's take NBA basketball, for one. I find it extremely unfair that someone can do something that is a GAME and make that much money off of it. But the fact of the matter is that there are people who pay 100's of dollars for one Lakers ticket, and that's how they get their money, and that's why there are superstar athletes who went to Duke who could have been doctors or lawyers or *gasp* teachers that are playing basketball. Now if we could get people to pay that much to have a good teacher in a school, we'd be in business.

I was a music education major for what seems like a second (actually, a semester). I did it because I wanted to go into music business and at NYU the program is in the education school. Anyway, the band director at USC came in and said that he was upset that people ever think of his career as a "fall back" career. But the truth is that there are teachers out there that are people who used it as a fall back. We all know the professors that we had in college like that. The ones that tried to make their way as an economist and couldn't do it. Because unfortunately it IS one of the careers that you go to school, you get the right education, and people (in some areas) will hire you in a heartbeat. Which is why we have sucky teachers around and underpaid good ones.

I thought a Junior partner in Big Law made at least 500K not including amenities and all that?

-Rudey

Teaching is very intellectually challenging. It sounds like you are saying that teachers are just not as smart as you, and that's ridiculous.
You're right, not everyone can go into every profession. I didn't get into law school, I scored 15 points lower on my real LSAT that I did on all the practice ones I took. AM I smart enough to go? I think so, I dont' believe that was the route I was supossed to take, otherwise, I wouldn't have bombed the tet that day. On the same note, not everyone can teach. It's very hard, no matter what people think. I used to think anyone could do it, but then I saw two other first year teachers leave after 1 semester because the kids ate them alive. I have the same kids, and I love them.

Sorry if it came across that way, but that's not how I meant it.

I learn new things everyday in the law. I'm sure you learn something new every day as a teacher, but it's a different kind of knowledge.

I never said one was better than the other. Don't put words into my mouth, please. I picked what was best for me, what I found to be most appropriate and enjoyable for myself.

And, not to be rude, but there are plenty of teachers out there that aren't as smart as me. Looking at some of the people that I know are teachers, I can say for certain that I'm smarter than they are. I'm sure there are some that are smarter than me. But that goes for anyone. Don't go looking for something that's not there in my post

How is it unfair what an NBA player makes? The market determines that rate. If anything it's unfair that they don't make more given how much money they make for the owners. It's even more unfair that a white university takes a black basketball player and robs him of millions for the rest of the university, its leagues, and the NCAA.

There are also teachers and tutors that are paid handsomely, but not many. You don't get rich from teaching. Why should you? Should everyone just be paid incredibly well from pool boys to teachers to lawyers and bankers?

Again, you don't need to be a nuclear physicist to be a teacher. You are teaching young kids how to subtract and divide, not launch a fricking rocket.

Not only do they get decent wages, but they get great benefits like long ass vacations and a union that is so strong it bullies governments to the detriment of students. You can go on and on about how teachers don't always make decent wages, but you can do that about everything. The average wage of a teacher is high enough.

-Rudey

There are very few of those jobs... I've had senior partners as professors and they don't make that much. Perhaps some in the huge markets like NY and Chicago. But that's a very small fraction

But those teachers that left could do it. It just wasn't something they enjoyed. That's the difference.

-Rudey

You know, I really don't think they could. It's two very long stories, but I just don't know. Maybe they could but just hated it, but I really don't think they were capable.

Rudey, you reitterrated my point. They have people who pay tons of money to see them, which is why they make that much money. But it doesn't seem fair. That was my point.

and teachers in my area make not even enough to really sustain themselves unless their married to one of the Wachovia bankers.


I dunno, I'm not even a teacher, and this thread is making me mad.

1) Because people pay tons of money to see them, that's fair. That's how things work in a market environment. There aren't that many people able to do what NBA players do so people pay a lot to see them. There are a lot of teachers and people able to do what teachers do so people do not pay a lot for them.

2) Again there are professions of all kinds in your area that don't make a lot I would bet. That's why people should use the average.

3) A Wachovia banker probably makes less than a teacher given that he works in commercial banking.

-Rudey

If you're that mad an feel so strongly about this, then lobby your lawmakers, both local and state, to do something about it.

Works for me. When those lawmakers have to pay more for teachers and the governments issue more debt to pay for it, that will be fine for me.

You should all lobby to increase teacher salaries!

-Rudey