Re: Pregnant Pledge
 

To return to the topic, the first year I was on the sister side of recruitment, we had a woman who was 26 or 28 and pregnant come through. I go to a small school and at that time, greek life and the campus in general was changing.

This woman did receive a bid from a group on campus, was initiated, and the next year was seen around campus with her new baby. (I also believe she was a senior when she went through.)

Now my campus has become much more traditional, so I don't know if the same would happen now. I do know that we still have a fairly small population of married women on campus who go through recruitment. Last year one of our new members was married and she is now the chapter's president. I feel though, that being married would be much more accepted now than being pregnant or having a child already.

I agree with you Danielle. Unfortunately, if Suzy Sadistic Druggie Prostitute is the most amazing girl in the world, she is still going to be judged for membership. It isn't fair, but that is the way it. People can say until they are blue in the face that they don't judge girls seeking membership by superficial ideals such as someone being unmarried and an underclassmen, but they do.

I came from a very large Chapter in a very competitive greek system in the South. I had 58 girls in my pledge class. We would not extend a bid to a pregnant PNM. I NOT am saying that this girl wouldn't be a good mom if she were in a sorority or that she wouldn't be able to give the sorority 100 percent or be a great sister. We just wouldn't give her a bid. We most likely wouldn't give a Junior classman a bit. I know that it's harsh, and I know and it isn't fair for her to be punished.

We would never accept Suzy Sadistic Druggie Prostitute, for the mere fact that she has a "questionable reputation" and our reputation is something that is highly regarded and protected. The same goes for a sister engaging in activities that are not deemed acceptable by the chapter and it's ideals. The chapter would internally take care of the sister's actions. We wouldn't shun her or turn her away, but if for instance a sister is doing damage to herself or the chapter, it becomes an issue for the exec board and advisors. A sister always represents her chapter and her sisters in all that she does. And this isn't just my chapter at my school, it was ALL of them.

We had two girls become pregant their sophmore years. Of course they continued their membership and the chapter was very supportive with their pregnancies. However, both girls ended up disaffiliating due to time committments with the chapter they were unable to fullfill.

Now the situation maybe different at smaller schools with small chapters and I can't speak for them.

I'm not sure it's discrimination as much as choosing the women who are going to carry on the chapter's legacy. Let's forget the stigma that goes along with being un-married and pregnant for a minute....


If you had 2 women to choose from (all else being equal) one we'll call Suzy freshman, and the other Jane freshman who also happens to be pregnant, who would you take the chance on? Most likely Suzy as from the outside it appears she would be the one who will most likely be able to give you a full 4 years of her time, energy, love... Jane may be very excited now about the possibility of sisterhood, but when the baby is born things will probably change and the baby, most likely, will become her whole life (as it should be) leaving little time for the sorority.

Now to address the question of discrimination against pregnant women in the business world. We all know that it is illegal to discriminate against a pregnant woman, but let's be real. Number 1, this woman would have to prove that out of the pool of candidates she was the best one for the job. Number 2, she has to prove that in addition to number 1 she was not chosen solely because she was pregnant. In the private sector hiring decisions and candidate pools are kept confidential. In order to be able to fully prove this she would have to be going for a job in the public sector where they have "sunshine" laws. Also, it is illegal to ask a woman if she is/plans to become pregnant in an interview, however if she opens the door it is not illegal to discuss it. Again all else being equal and if you have to make a decision between 2 equally qualified candidates there has to be a deciding factor somewhere - this just may be it. It's not nice to say, and it's not easy to hear, but it is the way the real world works.

Re: Re: Re: !Re: Pros/Cons
 

I had someone IM me and complain....I thought you were jumping on their bandwagon! Sorry! But no offense, preggo throws me off when it comes to stuff like this. Didn't want to sound rude, after I posted I re-read it and decided I sound attacking!

i have a good friend who got pregnaunt when we were both 20. She kept the baby and lived with her parents, She had graduated from junior college with a transfer degree but once she got pregnaunt she didn't go on to a 4 year school. She lived with her parents, who would baby sit for her if she paid them and only when they could do it,mostly likely only when she was working or had to go to the doctor. Sometimes if we wanted to shopping she would get permission from her parents to baby sit her son. I love my friend to death and her son, but quite honestly i really can not relate to her. She is still a nice person, but all her money goes to her son in one way or another minus living expenses such as food, car payment, ect. But eventhough i still think that she is a wonderful person she has changed. We can not go out and have fun on friday nights, we cant go anywhere with out finding someone to babysit, and as mean as it may sound at the age of 20 i didn't really want to deal with dipers, baby doctor visits and a whole lot of things dealing with the baby. No mater how much i love my friend, i really have (still to this day) have a harder time relating to her.

I think, for me, this would be the issue. If i were in an undergraduate chapter how are 18, 19 and 20 years olds who are at college to get an education suppose to relate to someone who has a baby and has to deal with (ie illness, other stuff). I would not want to be around a baby at that age and i really would not think that it would be the best to assume that other women this age would want to be around babies and children especially since i could not relate and I think that it would be bad to assume that other girls would.

I could just image that women might leave a sorority cause they could not feel that they could relate and be close to someone who is dealing with a big major part of their lifes that the average college freshman would be dealing with.

Come on. It is not your business to decide what other people do with their time. This is like saying you shouldn't rush if you're pre-med or pre-law or engineering because you should be studying instead of doing sorority things, or you shouldn't rush if you're on a sports team or if you have a job because you won't have enough time to balance that, or you shouldn't rush if you have a sick family member you have to take care of or a boyfriend you have to spend time with, or, you know, friends outside of the sorority. We all do not have to become slaves to our sororities. In my sorority, the required pledge activities were meetings 1-2 hours a week and one all-day pledge retreat, which is nothing a pregnant woman (or even new mom) couldn't handle. And of course, this is all assuming that she's not giving the baby up for adoption, as someone (I think ZTAngel) mentioned above. If she's already going to school full-time, she's obviously got some kind of financial stability and someone to look after the kid several days a week. Is adding a few more hours to the mix really going to be that damaging?

I think this idea that "new moms should spend all their time possible with their babies" particularly interesting in light of concerns that post-partum depression is linked to the idea that mothers don't spend enough time with people their own age, being social, and they start to feel isolated.

Personally, I think this entire thread is hilarious because people are bending over backwards trying to be PC and saying, "No, no, it's not that we don't want pregnant pledges because pregnant=premarital sex=QR, it's just that we're just thinking about what's best for the kid!" But they manage to be even more offensive this way, by pushing off their parenting ideas (when many of them aren't even parents) on everybody else and saying that you're a bad mom if you don't conform. If you don't want a pregnant girl in your chapter -- fine, mutual selection allows us to drop girls from rush for a lot of less-than-substantial reasons. But don't start calling people bad parents because their idea of parenting doesn't match up with yours. You can work full-time or go to school full time (while joining a sorority) and still bring up great kids. You can hang out with your kid 24/7 until it's 18 and have the most obnoxious kid known to man. My mom worked full-time for most of the time that my sister and I were growing up, and guess what? We both turned out 20 times better than anyone we know with stay-at-home moms. It's the quality of the parenting, not the quantity.


I'm also interested -- what if a member of your chapter got pregnant and decided to keep the baby after she had already initiated?

No, it's not my business to decide what people do with their time. But it was my business during an undergrad to decide on membership and who would be appropriate for membership.

having a child is no where near comparable to your major, job, or sports team.

Well that was your chapter. Mine didn't work that way, there were a lot more requirements.

Yep, I said that's what mutual selection is for.
And I didn't call anyone a bad parent. I, along with everyone else, am allowed to express my beliefs and opinions. Just like you can.

Totally different issue, and not the subject of this thread. But for what it's worth my opinion would be that she should go inactive, because that's a lot to deal with.

At my school, we held "rush classes" to help explain to the new girls what to look for (and what to avoid) during rush.

good:
"My GPA is a 4.0!"
"I'm looking for a great sisterhood."
"I'm really interested in getting involved."

bad:
"Is GPA a brand of beer?"
"Your letters look really "greek". I like that."
"I have barely any time. I'm with my boyfriend/at my 6 jobs/painting all day."


Meaning, as a sister, you DO kind of decide how appropriate a girl's use of time is. Membership is at a premium -- you only take the girls that (a) are a good fit for your group and (b) will contribute.

I think, fair or not, that I'd question how much a new mom could contribute. I'm sure she's great. But being in a sorority does take up time. Which, it sounds like, most new moms don't have.

Isn't that what rush is, though? The chapter deciding who does and does not meet the requirements for membership? The standards the chapter sets could be for looks, money, personality, grades, time commitment, morals, etc., but that is generally how rush works, at least in my experience.

I have said this in other posts, but I will repeat it

IT DEPENDS

on the chapter
on the woman's situation
on the college
on the support system the woman has
on the woman's financial situation

In my experience, every organization I've ever been in has been similar in levels of participation: 10% do the majority of the work. Another 40% or so are pretty helpful, and the rest are minimal participants.

I don't think it is fair to condemn a pregnant 19 year old for choosing to continue with her pregnancy, go to college, and try to live a "typical" college student life too. That is a life learning experience that can be beneficial. There are so many different hypothetical scenarios that could be presented. It would work out fine in some situations and horribly in others. Chapters know which is the truth for their campus.

My next door neighbors have a daughter who is now 22 who has a 3 year old son. Their daughter went back to school the semester after she had her baby. She lived AWAY at school. I would bet she didn't tell a lot of people at school that she had a son. This was the best circumstance for this child and this young woman. She was no where near ready to be a parent, her parents and brothers are always around and they all take part in the parenting of this child. He's adorable, bright, and charismatic. He has a huge family of adults who love him, discipline him and care for him. Is that a bad thing? Nope. He knows that mommy is in college and he is proud to now be in pre-school because he goes to school just like his mommy does. He is very bonded to his mom and misses her, but he is also bonded to his grandparents and uncles. They had a choice. They could support him and help raise him, or they could have their daughter not finish college, not have a career and be on welfare or work minimum wage jobs to struggle her whole life. The child knows who his mother is and doesn't confuse grandparents or uncles as his parents.

Of course ultimately it's up to the chapter. I was just pointing out earlier that all chapters are different and some cannot afford to rule out non-traditional students because they are at non-traditional universities.

Dee

Pregnant Pledge
 

I don't think that a pregnant woman is looked down on, but if something was to happen to the pledge it could fall back on the organization. Me and my #1 were both pregnant when we pledged. Me being pregnant had no effect on my pledging. The fact that I was on the golf team effected my pledging more. In fact I wanted to join my organization so bad that I carried the weight of some of my line sisters.

This is a very interesting discussion...whether its good or bad, I highly doubt any pregnant girls would go through recruitment at my large conservative southern school. I mean, we had a girl who was initiated and became pregnant during her sophomore year. She was engaged to the father, but she became pregnant before they had even planned the wedding. She was forced to go to alumni status or disafiliate by our chapter. The process was done as quickly and quietly as possible, to "save face" for our chapter...I've heard of similar stories from other chapters on my campus. Do you all have any experience/stories about this?

cynical, that is exactly what happens with girls who got pregnant in my sorority at my school. Everyone was very supportive and were even bridesmaids in their weddings, but they bowed out gracefully. I honestly NEVER even saw pregnant girls around my campus, a large southern school.

a little of subject but....
 

This is completely off the subject but I had to reply to this because maybe due to your major you feel qualified to lecture and judge, however I’m sorry but I feel you’re lacking any sense of personal connection to the topic to understand what you’re saying. Not that I would understand it any better, given I don’t have children, but I have a friend whom at 17 was left with the responsibility of raising her older sisters 2 month old simply because her sister decided she didn’t want the responsibility, and every time I saw her changing a diaper, taking her to the park, teaching her how to walk, talk, and blowing us off at night because she had to put her to bed made me realize that she wasn’t doing that because she was forced to, or because it was the right thing to do, but because she loved & loves that little girl like she was her own, and for 3 years now I can honestly say I think she would do anything for that little girl to guarantee her a chance at a good life.

Which brings me to my second point, she was engaged, and this guy made enough money to support them for a lifetime, he loved the little girl like she was his own, and it was their choice to raise her, it never seemed forced on either of them, and to be honest I don’t know if I would be able to do that after seeing everything they went through if put in that situation; but she also chose to join the military not to have a career (or feel like she could "do it all"), but because she knew it would guarantee a future for them both independently, and although sadly last year her fiancée passed away, her veteran status is what’s helping her get her BS now, while both her family and his family help raise the little girl. I think it comes down to this, people with that kind of responsibility generally know what they should and shouldn’t do in life, but I think maybe the difference is whether or not the parent(s) have the support they need.

Nichole

I WAS the pregnant pledge!
 

I am not one to air my laundry but I would like to tell my story in hopes it may help someone out there...My mothers cancer progressed and got worse so I transferred to be closer to her sooo not only have I been to OleMiss where I am a KD alum but I also attended Mississippi University for Women...at the "W" they have social clubs and being a Junior transfer I wanted to rush because I didnt know anyone!
When I was pledging I found out that I was pregnant by my fiance of 2 years whom was a PIKE alum @ OleMiss. I was shocked and upset but I had some AMAZING sisters who stood by myside! I finished pledging the Highlander Social Club and immediatly became an alum!
I had my little boy Princeton-Joseph on June 15th, 2004 and he is AMAZING! I had the best shower & had my closest KD & HL sisters by myside! So you CAN finish school, be a great mom, and be a member of a soroitity or social club!;)
http://images.buzznet.com/assets/use...09745811-2.jpg

you musta been a beautiful baby
 

Aww, he's so precious! :D

I have a sister who had a baby months before pledging. We love her (we're sophomores now) and her adorable baby.

I went to a larger southern school before my pregnancy and was very close to some of my sisters but when I had to tranfer & I did become pregnant..I did lose touch with the majority of my sisters and I know thats why but the ones that I was the closest to have been around!;)
I dont believe I have ever seen a pregnant greek at OleMiss...

Re: you musta been a beautiful baby
 

Aww Thanks! I am sure proud!

Not to pour some hater-aid on this thread, but there is a big ole difference (I think) between someone being a pregnant as a pledge in APO, vs Phi Mu or something, especially if it were at a southern school with a compedative rush. Its apples and oranges. I am sure it would spark some discussion and such in APO. But I also think you would be much more likely to hear conversation A, than conversation B.

Conversation A: "Did ya'll hear about that KKG pledge who is pregnant?"

Conversation B: "Did ya'll hear about that APO pleadge who is pregnant?"

The amount of drama it would cause would probably be campus dependent as well.

ETA, that baby is cutest damn thing I have ever seen!

Being an addict is not illegal. Possession and sales of non-prescription drugs might be illegal, but addiction is a disease. If Suzy's disease is active, she probably won't go thru recruitment. If she is in recovery, the topic of addiction probably won't even come up.

Interesting thread.

KDLady, what a cutie! :)

My chapter has never had a pregnant new member or active sister, to my knowledge, but I wouldn't have a problem with it... IF the woman were able to fulfill all her obligations to her baby, her academic program, and the sorority. Caring for a small child is a lot of work, and so is being a full-time student, and being in a sorority isn't exactly a zero time commitment either... so that's a pretty big if.

A friend of mine is a single parent and was attending my school while raising a little girl. The father was nowhere in sight. I saw what she went through, scrambling to arrange for day care, finding a babysitter so she could go out once in a while, etc. It got a little easier when her little girl started kindergarten. Still, she was crazy busy; with her academic program and her child (and no father helping out or family in the area), she didn't have time to breathe, much less join a sorority.

Anyway... all this is reminding me of something that happened at my alma mater early in the 20th century. There were only a handful of female students at the time. One young married student became pregnant. The powers-that-were demanded that she drop out of college until she had had the baby (even though she was not due to give birth until after the end of the semester). She refused. After a lot of back-and-forth, they agreed that she could stay in school but she was only allowed to take one class. She chose one of the hardest subjects from her program, and since it was the only class she was focusing on, she completely blew the curve and got one of the highest grades in the class. So that was the end of that policy.

I think we need to trust women to decide for themselves BEFORE they rush, if they honestly believe that they could do it. We let RAs rush, and they can have 50 freshman to take care of, I know its not the same but that RA who is also in a sport and a sorority has just as little time as a mother. I'm not saying all women who are mothers should join, I'm just saying if they can care for a baby, they should be able to manage their time. I also realize that some may get in over their heads not realizing what it means until that baby is really there.

I do wonder if sorority membership can help women with post-partum depression...

KDLady- your son is so cute!!

there are a lot of women out there who have kids and can't handle them as it is. Having a kid doesn't automatically grant you a large amount of common sense...

i just wanted to say that if being a mother had anything to do with being in a sorority, it would be that at least you would know that the PNM was responsible. I was initiated 2 years ago and at that time, my daughter was 2. It is not only possible but easy(for me anyway) to be a good single mother, a full-time college student, a good employee, and an excellent sister(I am now the tresurer). I do understand that this isnt possible for everyone but a woman shouldn't be jugded on how good of a member she will be just because she is a mother. All of my sisters love my daughter and there has never been a time that she and I weren't accepted fully. They even make letter shirts for her and they all call her thier neice. What a wonderful oppurtunity to not only watch one of your own legacies grow up, but to teach her all that is important about your sisterhood. My daughter, at four, knows 2 of our sorority songs. my point is that you really shouldn't judge a pnm for that because she turn out to be one of your most devoted members.

While you may be, and many women may be, there are many women who are NOT responsible mothers.

yes and those are the ones that usually dont end up going to college, much less gradulating high school.

Not necessarily. You're making quite a few absolute generalizations. A woman's level of education does not reflect on how responsible you are or how well you can raise a child.

There's also an argument (not saying that I necessarily support it or whatnot) that getting pregnant out of wedlock to begin with shows a lack of responsibility.

that's a huge generalization.

i'm pretty sure there are some people out there who have graduated high school or even college and ended up being not the best of mothers. like kddani said, huge generalization & the level of education does not equal being a good or bad parent.

while that may be true, I do belive that it shows how responsible a girl is when she goes to school full-time, works, makes excellent grades, etc while she has a child that she takes care of by herself. Having a child may end up being what makes her a responsible adult in the long run. My point before was that there probably arent going to be many girls who rush when they have a child if they arent responsible and dont think that they can handle being in a soroity and if they arent responsible then what are the chances that they come to college anyway...

i never said that your eduaction level had anything to do with being a good mother...just that i have never heard of a girl who was an all around student who was a bad mother...

Then again i could be wrong....it happens :)

I just think that women like sigmajill should be given a chance at sisterhood and sorority life. Not all women can handle it, but why catagorically deny the ones who can based on the actions of a few.

I don't remember running into this situation as a collegian or an adviser, but it is certainly one way to stand out at recruitment-- which could be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the school and how conservative/liberal the students are.

There certainly were women who became pregnant when they were fully initiated members, but at my school, those ladies became alumnae or cancelled their memberships-- they left the chapter to get married and/or have their babies and didn't return to active membership.

I think it depends on the culture of the Greek System and university. A young mom could be a very good sorority sister. She'd probably be the one that came to the weekly meeting and did a lot of community service activities, and a social here or there... rather than someone who would be in a time-consuming leadership role or the life of the party at every social. Or not.

My friends with small children and babies do a lot of juggling and need their "me" time. So I would guess a sorority could fulfill those needs.

However, for me personally, if I was in that situation, I don't know that I as a new mom could relate to the hormones-raging traditional college activities-- and would probably only come around for the tamer sisterhood events. Also, coming from a traditional conservative campus, I don't think my Greek System when I was a student would give an obviously pregnant PNM a very competitive recruitment-- however, if the woman became pregnant as a member, I could certainly see her sisters being supportive and encouraging of her to keep her ties to the chapter (but perhaps not so much from the local advisers!)

I am going to ditto this one.

We had several of these situations this year. The girls now show up as alumnae to Homecoming and other large events with their children.

I have to comment on some of this...first of all...
I believe that if your determined to do something..you can! There are a lot of mothers out there...younger and older that can be great mothers or they can be total deadbeats!
I know girls that have gotten pregnant and had babies before their sixteenth birthday and were better moms to their babies that some older mothers in their 20's & up...
Its very true that the education level has NOTHING to do with how well you raise your baby...
As far as getting pregnant out of wedlock...NOBODY can control that unless they chose to be irresponsible and not use any protection or birth control...thats what makes a person irresponsible! I was on the BC patch not to metion my fiance used protection and obviously the man upstairs wanted me to have a precious gift of life!
I believe that what makes a woman responsible is putting her baby first before anything and actually raising her child instead of passing it off on someone else and if the time permits her to be an active member of a sorority then good for her! I know if it was me back before I pledged Kappa Delta and found out that I was pregnant..I probably wouldnt be a proud KD today! Being a responsible mother is a very hard job and I know it takes all my time up! I am not very active with KD at all but when PJ gets old enough for me to trust his father with him them maybe I can devote some time to the local AA...:D

somebody said: "I think, for me, this would be the issue. If i were in an undergraduate chapter how are 18, 19 and 20 years olds who are at college to get an education suppose to relate to someone who has a baby and has to deal with (ie illness, other stuff). "
---------------

just curious, let's say a PNM had a serious illness...just because others can't relate to that, does that make her less of a candidate?

i think that you are quoting me
 

It would not make her less of a candidate, but when i was an undergraduate (not to give away membership selection secrets) but when we discussed whoto give bids to we talked about how would these women relate to each other. My statement was directed to that idea. From my own experience i had a very hard time at the age of 20 to relate to my best friend who was pregnaunt and then when she had her baby. From my experience, i was stating, How can 18 to 20 year old relate to someone who was pregnaunt/already had a child simple cause a women with a child is dealing with issues that most women that age had not dealt with.

Also, i was trying to make the point that I, and probably many college students, went to college to get the college experience and my friend who had the baby could not experience those things cause she had a baby to take care of.

Now, would my friend make a good addition to a sorority, make grades, be the type of person who would get involved. Yes. But she had a major change (ie having the baby) that i think that many 18 year old could not relate to and thus i don't think would be best addition when putting together a new member class.

I here all these arguments about how women can do these things and how they found support from their sisters. Great, but just from my experience I think that the average 18 year old member of a new member class would have a hard time relating to the things that a new mom/mom to be had to deal with. And that would be the important issue to me when voting on a candidate.

I don't think this question has been answered...

...what if the PNM in question knows she will put the baby up for adoption when she's born? Does that make the issue of being pregnant a moot point?

It would make a difference to me. I'd be more inclined to want to cut a girl who is going to keep the baby because, well, I don't like babies and don't want them around me, nor do I want to hear about them all the time.

But you know, even if she puts the baby up for adoption, that won't stop the campus gossip hounds from saying stuff like OMGWTFBBQ XYZ house had a pregnant pledge OMG they're all WHORES!!!

Doesnt it Basically boil down to what not to do as a prim Sorority Lady?

Does it look good for The Organization with a Girl with child on campus wearing letters.

Is that the kind of projection to be made for possible new members?

It would make a difference to me, too--and apparently, it did make a difference for my chapter.

It seems like no one wants to admit that babies out of wedlock=proof of premarital sex. We might all be shacking, but no one wants to admit it, lest we be considered anything but good sorority girls.