These suicide murderers...do people really understand what they are?

Do they understand how Iran used children to carry bombs and attack Iraqi soldiers?

Do they understand that children walked across mine fields between Iran and Iraq?

Do they understand how young these supposed "martyrs" are that murder Israelis and Arabs when there are children and teenagers, some even mentally unstable or retarded??

-Rudey

Of course most Americans don't know this.

The modus operandi for suicide bombers is to recruit a disallusioned teen, and have him detonate less than 24 hours after he was recruited. He spends much of his last day on earth being brainwashed while isolated. Using a person with Down's Syndrome is not only despicable, but it strikes me as an act of desperation.

This is true, and this is why American influence still exists for the time being. However, compare this situation to the prior situation, where Kurds not only had no voice, but were subject to abasement, loss of property, and even mustard gas. To say that Sunnis are feeling a bit underrepresented at this early date, and thus the elections were a failure, shows a gross inability to reasonably compare wholly disparate situations.

This is what those suicide murderers do.
 

These are murderers like Saddam who want to terrorize a region.


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/02/in...rint&position=

The New York Times

February 2, 2005
Iraqis Who Died While Daring to Vote Are Mourned as Martyrs
By EDWARD WONG

NAJAF, Iraq, Feb. 1 - Salim Yacoubi bent over to kiss the purple ink stain on his twin brother's right index finger, gone cold with death.

"You can see the finger with which he voted," Shukur Jasim, a friend of the dead man, said as he cast a tearful gaze on the body, sprawled across a washer's concrete slab. "He's a martyr now."

The stain marked the hard-won right to vote that Naim Rahim Yacoubi exercised Sunday, and the price he paid for that privilege.

Mr. Yacoubi, 37, was one of at least 50 Iraqis who died in bomb and mortar attacks as millions of people marched to polling centers in the first free elections in decades. At least nine suicide bombs exploded in Baghdad alone. In one of those, the bomber detonated his device outside Kurdis Primary School near the airport, sending dozens of shards of shrapnel into Mr. Yacoubi.

The victims of election day violence are being hailed by many Iraqis as the latest martyrs in a nearly two-year-long insurgency that has claimed the lives of thousands. They were policemen who tried to stop suicide bombers from entering polling centers, children who walked with elderly parents to cast votes, or - in the case of Mr. Yacoubi - a fishmonger who, after voting, took tea from his house to electoral workers at the school.

At polling centers hit by explosions, survivors refused to go home, steadfastly waiting to cast their votes as policemen swept away bits of flesh.

Shiite Arabs, oppressed under the rule of Saddam Hussein, turned out to vote in large numbers, and those who died in the attacks are being brought now to the sprawling cemetery in Najaf, this holiest of Shiite cities, for burials considered fitting of their sacrifices.

The official cause of death on Mr. Yacoubi's death certificate reads, "Explosion on the day of elections."

As the body washer sponged Mr. Yacoubi on Tuesday, blood as dark as the ink on his finger ran from cuts in the back of his head. Four wailing brothers clutched at the body. A group of women in full-length black keened outside.

"All of us talked about the elections," said Hadi Aziz, a 60-year-old neighbor. "We were waiting impatiently for this day so we could finally rid ourselves of all our troubles. Naim was just like any Iraqi who hoped for a better future for Iraq, who wanted stability for Iraq. We hoped that after the elections, the American forces would withdraw from our country."

Two days before the vote, the portly Mr. Yacoubi, a father of nine, drove with his friend Mr. Jasim to Khadimiya, a Shiite neighborhood, to have a new robe made for the occasion, Mr. Jasim said.

On Sunday, he got up at dawn. "He was very proud, and he put perfume on himself and gave out pastries and tea," Mr. Jasim said.

At 8:30, Mr. Yacoubi walked to the local primary school to cast his vote, Mr. Jasim said. He was frisked by policemen as he stood in line. Inside one of the classrooms, he checked off box No. 169 on the national ballot, for a slate of candidates backed by the most revered Shiite cleric in Iraq.

Then, impressed by the dedication of the election workers, Mr. Yacoubi went home to boil tea for them, Mr. Jasim said. He had dropped off the tea glasses and was walking away when the bomb went off.

"It's not the man who exploded himself who's a martyr," Mr. Jasim said as the body washer wiped away dried blood. "He wasn't a true Muslim. This is the martyr. What religion asks people to blow themselves up? It's not written in the Koran."

Mr. Aziz, the neighbor, nodded.

"This is the courage of Iraqis," he said of Mr. Yacoubi's decision to vote, "and we will change the face of history. This is our message to the countries of the world, especially those that are still under a dictatorship and want to walk the same road as the Iraqis."

On Monday, another family arrived at the cemetery with the body of Ali Hussein Kadhum, 40, a farmer from Mahawil. Mr. Kadhum was one of five people killed by a rocket-propelled grenade aimed at their minivan as they drove from a polling center on Sunday, the family said.

"He told his family, 'We shouldn't go to the polls together, we should go one by one, because we may face terrorists,' " said an uncle, Muhammad Kadhum Jabaara. "It turned out he was right. Because of that, we got a chance to live."

In the dusty lot outside the washing rooms, another family strapped a coffin holding the body of a policeman, Adil al-Nassar, onto the roof of a blue minivan. He had just been cleaned. Now it was time to take him to the golden-domed Shrine of Ali for his final blessings. He was not the first policeman to be brought here.

Officer Nassar, 40, died after tackling a man who had leapt into a line of women waiting to vote at Osama bin Zaid Primary School, said Kadhum al-Hashim, the officer's father-in-law.

"There were many people, and Adil was just guiding the voters into the school when the terrorist jumped into the line of women," Mr. Hashim said. Several others died in the explosion, he added.

The victim's brother, Muhammad al-Nassar, wiped away tears with a white scarf.

Adil al-Nassar had joined the new police force just a year ago, his brother said. He had a family to feed: a wife and three children, the eldest an 8-year-old son.

"He's a martyr now," Mr. Nassar said. "He saved many lives for the greater good."

To which Mr. Hashim added proudly: "Despite the explosion, the voters came back to the polling center as if nothing had happened. The police just evacuated the bodies, then let people back in."

An elderly neighbor, Kadhum Hussein, said the elections had been worth all the heartache. "God has spared our lives and spared us from the dictator," he said as he scratched his white beard. "The situation is better than before, and we are freed from all things under the past regime."

One man in the funeral gathering showed visitors two palm-size laminated cards with Koranic verses that Adil al-Nassar had carried in his pocket. Each was marred by shrapnel holes. One verse read, "God, I ask you for your mercy, because we come to return to you and we ask you for your help and to meet our needs."

Just then, a station wagon pulled up with a pair of wooden coffins on the roof. Several men piled out and pulled from the coffins the bodies of two brothers, the intestines of one exposed.

They were killed Sunday by a mortar round as they walked with their parents to a polling center in a Baghdad slum, family members said.

Two more martyrs, they said, two more bodies to wash and bury.

-Rudey

Russ seriously I dont have the time or energy to go through line by line of your statements and I could very easily come up with links to back up my claims but I'm stuck in midterm hell right now in the last semester before I get my M.S. so I have better things to do with my time.

I'm allowed to state my opinion so back off! GC isnt just your sounding board, I give you the right to state your opinions and beliefs but dont force it other people. You really need to learn that. Most of the time I keep my mouth shut when I dont agree with things people say but allow them the right to say it.

Its way too early to be discussing the impact of the election and whether or not this will be as significant of a landmark as you like to claim so let's come back to this issue in 6 months and discuss.

You can't provide credible citations to back up the ridiculous things that you've posted, and you won't.You are allowed to state an opinion, but that's not all that you did. You made a flippant statement that I, and other GCers took issue with. Back off? Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to obey your every command because I'm simply awe-inspired by your well thought out and eloquent opinions like, "Nope sorry not happening."I need to learn that you allow me the right to state my opinions? Gee, I thought that it was the Bill of Rights that gave me the right. If you are to change your mind, just how will you disallow me, and others, the right to state my opinions and beliefs, which of course are granted by you?Who are you to say that's too early? You want six months? Don't worry, this thread (or another) will be around to take a look at what is going on, whether you allow me the right to state my opinions and beliefs, or not.

It'll take more like 40 years - and Russ hasn't said otherwise.

Honestly, no one's saying not to express your opinion, just don't pass it off as fact.

Re: This is what those suicide murderers do.
 

The title really tells the story. The people of Iraq will dictate their future, and not terrorists. I find this to be very encouraging.

I believe that takes more like 80-100 years to really evaluate the success of any new democracy. It takes generations of teaching children until these values are safe.

[IMG]http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?ssbinary=true&cachecontrol=*%3A0%2C30%3A 10+*%2F*%2F*&blobtable=JPImage&blobcol=urlimage&bl obwhere=1107400720548&blobkey=id&blobheader=image/jpeg[/IMG]

Hopefully this image shows up. This little boy is 15. He tried to blow himself up today.

-Rudey

http://img227.exs.cx/img227/116/satellite9gf.jpg

nah, but i threw it on an image host for ya. This should work.

Hmmm... amazing how the numbers change over time - the much lauded 72% (as seen on FoxNews) has slowly crept down to 57% and probibly will continue to fall as more results come in... and as more complaints of voters being turned away in Sunni areas comes to light...

Anyhoo... before ya'll jump for joy like they did on FoxNEWS, here is a tidbit from the past (which I'm sure some readers of the New York Times might have seen):

Make of it what you will....

5% would be a success. You are insufferable, brother - try to see the potential positives here. Even if you don't agree with the past, there's no choice but to do the best from here out, and this is a positive sign.

You'd think you would be celebrating that, rather than being a cantankerous nit and referencing Vietnam . . .

Geee.... sorry for reading the news "brother"... but the cynic in me doesn't see a flawed (yes flawed, I've seen the foreign monitors reports and complaints) election as proof positive of Bush's idiotic and illegal war...

As for the Vietnam reference... I stated what the BBC, CBC, Toronto Star, and New York Times brought back up again... specfically that in the past the US administration (LBJ in this case) has latched onto and promoted an election as a indicator of freedom and legitamacy... hopefully people have learned from the mistakes made during the debacle in Vietnam (though I know it's not from experience with the current armchair warmongers in office :rolleyes: )

you better hope we don't find any evidence of possible evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Canada. Maybe you should start packing and move down here where you'll be safer :D

Actually we're good... the US military took back it's last warhead in '97;)

Shiites Win Most Votes in Iraqi Election
 

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...iraq_elections

By JASON KEYSER, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The list of candidates representing Iraq's majority Shiite Muslims won the most votes in the nation's Jan. 30 election, followed by the Kurds and then Prime Minister Ayad Allawi's list, Iraqi election officials said Sunday.

The Shiite-dominated ticket received 4.075 million votes. A Kurdish alliance was second with 2.175 million votes and Allawi's list was third with about 1.168 million.

Of Iraq's 14 million eligible voters, 8,456,266 cast ballots, the commission said. That represents a turnout of about 60 percent.

Also Sunday, insurgents attacked a U.S. convoy and a government building near the northern Iraqi city of Mosul, leaving at least four people dead, hospital workers said. Two Iraqi National Guard troops were also killed while trying to defuse a roadside bomb.

Election officials said only 3,775 valid votes were cast in the insurgency-plagued Sunni province of Anbar.

About 1.75 million votes were cast in the Kurdish-ruled areas of northern Iraq. Iraqis living in those areas also elected a new regional parliament.

The results released Sunday will not be certified for three days, officials said. The balloting was the first free election in Iraq in more than 50 years and the first since Saddam Hussein was ousted from power after the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.

"This is a new birth for Iraq," commission spokesman Farid Ayar said.

In Mosul, insurgents fired on the convoy in Al-Qahira district, just north of Mosul, sparking a battle that left at least four people dead and two wounded, doctors at the Al-Jumhuri Teaching Hospital said. Insurgents also fired a rocket at the governor's building in Mosul, killing one woman and one man, as well as injuring four others, officials at the hospital said.

Two Iraqi National Guard troops were killed on Mosul's airport road while trying to diffuse a roadside bomb, police said.

U.S. and insurgent forces have fought fierce battles in recent days in Mosul, 225 miles northwest of Baghdad.

Fierce clashes broke out Saturday after American troops, responding to a mortar attack on one of their bases, were attacked with small arms and rocket-propelled grenades by insurgents inside a mosque, U.S. officials said.

The insurgents disabled a U.S. Army tank and a Stryker armored vehicle during the battle, which raged for hours around the mosque, Lt. Col. Erik Kurilla said. U.S. troops killed nine insurgents but suffered no fatalities, Kurilla said.

they had a better turn out than we did

does anyone else see a problem with this?

As per usual, you missed the point, Cooper. The point of the entire post was that, regardless of your feelings on the war, even a 'hardliner' such as you can probably see that the only way a positive can come from this war is if, in years to come, the Iraqi people enjoy the freedom and prosperity that has been appreciated in our respective nations. In saying that, I'm not requiring you to exalt the Bush administration or even accept their actions as correct or positive. I'm requiring you to stray from your previous course of being a cantankerous nit, to see past your hardline anti-Bush stance and accept a greater good. You can't make the 'illegal' war go away, star - there can be, however, a 'best-case' outcome to this scenario. I wonder why you don't want to see that happen . . . wait, no I don't.

Well, make it at least two nits.

Among the things I've worried about during this entire epsode is that we may not have learned much from our unfortunate experiences in Vietnam.

Among them that training local forces to take over from us didn't work. Those forces folded as we pulled out.

Also, that local elections would give legitimacy and strength to the government. It may have in Saigon (now Ho Chi Minh City), but not the the majority of the country.

Finally, that the war would become a contest of attrition. Guerilla warfare is not our strongest suit.

This may or may not be true, but the comparison with Vietnam, while convenient, isn't strong from an objective standpoint. There are too many mitigating factors - also, one trial isn't enough to dictate success or failure, especially in disparate cultures and regions. Bottom line? Time will tell how similar or different the situations are, but simply saying "guerilla warfare" and "nation-building" is not enough to link the two.

I offered this as something I'm worried about -- and have been since the beginning of this conflict.

I haven't said it will happen, but rather that it sounds a lot like the rhetoric did back then. Enough to be worrisome.

Remember that my concerns are grounded in experience -- having been through something like this first hand once before.